Israel withholds Palestinian tax revenues after ICC move

[Ulysses G.]

.....when your country is invaded.....occupied...taken over......

...and you are put in fenced enclosures.......

...how can the world sit idly by.....

...and they should be expected to pay taxes to their occupiers as well......???

You might want to read a few history books too. There has never been an independent Arab country called Palestine in all of history and such a country was never invaded.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[retarius]

As the years drag on....what is it now? Nearly 50 years of brutal occupation I find myself becoming more and more against Israeli policy. It is time for a boycott of this brutal country. In the beginning in the 6 day war I was solidly behind Israel, but as the years passed they began to act like bullies and monsters, turning Gaza into a ghetto, stealing land in the West Bank, and brutally killing women and innocent children in their collective punishment purges in Gaza. The Zionists turned out no better than the Nazis.

[samuibruno]

.....when your country is invaded.....occupied...taken over......

...and you are put in fenced enclosures.......

...how can the world sit idly by.....

...and they should be expected to pay taxes to their occupiers as well......???

in life you can be sure of only 2 things

DEATH and TAXES

so yes they need to pay taxes

[retarius]

Israel are only interested in the destruction of Palestine and making anything that ever has been Palestine part of Israel.

They will not stop or accept anything other than the complete destruction of Palestine.

Hey Einstein, don't you think that if Israel would have wanted the Palestinians gone

they would take them nearly 70 years to do so? think before you babble...

Exactly, as if it would be a difficult task.

Mind you I can't help but think that the destruction of Palestine would solve a lot of problems.

Are you calling for genocide of the people of Palestine? Why not come right out with it and call it by its real name? Do you know that genocide is a war crime? I suppose you think you are a real hard case to call for all that burning flesh of innocent women and kids as Israeli white phosphorus rains down on them. You know what, I think it is truly disgusting to call for the 'destruction of Palestine' to solve some problems. You sound like a modern day Hitler-type with a prejudice against Arabs.... what is it with you right wing nuts? Truly disgusting.

[Seastallion]

It's blackmail. Don't sue us or expose our crimes, or we'll make life difficult for you.

I am not surprised at Israel's attitude; it's the same from bully's and criminals everywhere. I am, though, left wondering how the US can keep condoning this sort of blatantly aggressive behavior.

Join the ICC yourself, Israel, start following moral and legal practices, and sue those with whom you have a gripe, not perpetuate criminal and nasty activities.

I'm wondering why Israel transfers any tax revenues to a Palestinian entity which has forged an agreement with Hamas, who are committed to it's destruction. The Palestinians act like whining children who never take responsibility for their own futures because gullible liberals allow them to get away with it. Every missile fired from Gaza should be met by an hour when any electricity or water supplied by Israel is cut off. Now where's that cartoon with the baboon hitting the fire button?

When will you stop repeating the myth that Hamas are committed to the destruction of Israel? You're using many years outdated information.

As for cutting power and water...I agree with you. I, in fact would say a day, not an hour. Not that Israel allows them much water or electricity. But yes, it's a good idea.

Much better than bombing innocent children playing on a beach.

It is not a myth. Rather, denying it is.

Actually, most of the links provided to support the "reasonable Hamas" image are the outdated ones, and moreover, they are almost always referring to a few statements, which are often quoted out of context. On the other hand, there is really no shortage of various Hamas leaders stating what they are actually committed to. No need to even go back that far for that. And no, the Unity government thing got little to do with this issue - claims to the contrary disregard actual framework of that effort.

Can't see the point of utterly denying this when even the Hamas does not.

Cutting off the power to the Gaza Strip would most certainly be denounced as collective punishment, and is a violation of international law regarding obligations of the occupying force. Wouldn't it actually be better if no rockets were fired to begin with, so that no power cuts and no bombings would be considered?

I know you try to sound even-handed, and kudos to you for that, but your bias does shine through often.

The Hamas situation, as I read it, is that there are a few nutjobs still in the hierarchy. The reasonable Hamas top brass can't get rid of them and have to tolerate them, meanwhile acknowledging Israel's right to exist and working towards the unity government. It is the reasonable chaps that ultimately hold sway, though they obviously have a very difficult job. Every now and then the nutjobs mouth off, and despite the fact that they are not now representative, they are quoted with glee by, for example, right wing Israeli media.

Collective punishment? Come now, Israel does not baulk at that (numerous examples, eg evicting the family of a killed murderer and destroying the family home), and as far as collective punishments go, a 24 hour power cut HAS to be better than a bomb on a school.

I denounce bombs. I don't denounce a representative punishment such as a power cut.

It WOULD be better if no rockets were fired to begin with......but "to begin with" is a bit deceptive.

It would be better if there was no blockade and no occupation to begin with.

It would be better that Palestinians were not deprived of the very water that runs in the ground beneath their feet.

It would be better that so many of the Israeli controls, human rights abuses, murders, aggression, land thefts, farm demolitions, collective punishments etc etc etc did not happen TO BEGIN WITH.

Rockets are largely a response.

[Jingthing]

The irrational over the top demonization of Israel marches on ...

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Asiantravel]

Would be a good time to sanction Israel by e.g. freezing all their overseas accounts.

The Israeli behave as if all occupied territory is theirs and the Palestinian state which was planned to build when the state of Israel was created is something illegal - if so the state Israel would be as illegal...

Bye,

Derk

here is an interesting legal move which perhaps could be implemented more often

British activists launch lawsuit over deadly raid on Gaza 'peace flotilla'

The UNHCR report found "clear evidence to support prosecutions" of crimes under the Geneva Convention, namely wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment and wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

Rodney Dixon QC, representing the 13 Britons as well as other passengers on board, said: "It is not possible to extradite the Israeli commanders allegedly responsible, but if they travel here and the police have sufficient evidence, they could arrest them and they can be prosecuted here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-activists-launch-lawsuit-over-deadly-raid-on-gaza-peace-flotilla-9955992.html

[Morch]

I'm wondering why Israel transfers any tax revenues to a Palestinian entity which has forged an agreement with Hamas, who are committed to it's destruction. The Palestinians act like whining children who never take responsibility for their own futures because gullible liberals allow them to get away with it. Every missile fired from Gaza should be met by an hour when any electricity or water supplied by Israel is cut off. Now where's that cartoon with the baboon hitting the fire button?

When will you stop repeating the myth that Hamas are committed to the destruction of Israel? You're using many years outdated information.

As for cutting power and water...I agree with you. I, in fact would say a day, not an hour. Not that Israel allows them much water or electricity. But yes, it's a good idea.

Much better than bombing innocent children playing on a beach.

It is not a myth. Rather, denying it is.

Actually, most of the links provided to support the "reasonable Hamas" image are the outdated ones, and moreover, they are almost always referring to a few statements, which are often quoted out of context. On the other hand, there is really no shortage of various Hamas leaders stating what they are actually committed to. No need to even go back that far for that. And no, the Unity government thing got little to do with this issue - claims to the contrary disregard actual framework of that effort.

Can't see the point of utterly denying this when even the Hamas does not.

Cutting off the power to the Gaza Strip would most certainly be denounced as collective punishment, and is a violation of international law regarding obligations of the occupying force. Wouldn't it actually be better if no rockets were fired to begin with, so that no power cuts and no bombings would be considered?

I know you try to sound even-handed, and kudos to you for that, but your bias does shine through often.

The Hamas situation, as I read it, is that there are a few nutjobs still in the hierarchy. The reasonable Hamas top brass can't get rid of them and have to tolerate them, meanwhile acknowledging Israel's right to exist and working towards the unity government. It is the reasonable chaps that ultimately hold sway, though they obviously have a very difficult job. Every now and then the nutjobs mouth off, and despite the fact that they are not now representative, they are quoted with glee by, for example, right wing Israeli media.

Collective punishment? Come now, Israel does not baulk at that (numerous examples, eg evicting the family of a killed murderer and destroying the family home), and as far as collective punishments go, a 24 hour power cut HAS to be better than a bomb on a school.

I denounce bombs. I don't denounce a representative punishment such as a power cut.

It WOULD be better if no rockets were fired to begin with......but "to begin with" is a bit deceptive.

It would be better if there was no blockade and no occupation to begin with.

It would be better that Palestinians were not deprived of the very water that runs in the ground beneath their feet.

It would be better that so many of the Israeli controls, human rights abuses, murders, aggression, land thefts, farm demolitions, collective punishments etc etc etc did not happen TO BEGIN WITH.

Rockets are largely a response.

The topic is about Israel withholding Palestinian tax revenues. These funds concern the Hamas only in a roundabout way. About half the posts deal with Gaza, Hamas and rockets...

Could you, possibly, provide ANY credible source to support the presented view of Hamas? If this is deemed OT, I would appreciate a link by PM. As far as I recall, this is not the first time such notions were aired, but usually without much by way of backing up. There are divisions inside the Hamas, same as with any organization - they just do not quite conform to the notions of moderation and compromise attributed in the post. Who are these elusive Hamas moderates, then? Giving the Palestinian Unity government as a relevant example of supposed Hamas moderation is plain misinformed, not to mention worlds apart from the reality of the current situation between the two groups.

There was nothing in my post to suggest Israel does not apply collective punishment. The point was that the suggested measures will not be well received, appreciated as moderate or that they will not be denounced by international public opinion. That they are against international law is a fact, whereas not all of the IDF actions are (even when they result in civilian casualties) - laws governing these sort of things do not always intuitively make sense.

All them "would" statements refer to things piled on Israel plate. The Palestinian have naught to do with the sorry state of things? Not even an inkling of responsibility? Not a shred of control over their actions and options?

As this topic is not really about the Hamas, could posters insisting on dragging it in, at least tie it somehow to the issue at hand? The most obvious link would be to point out that by undermining Abbas's and the Fatah's domestic position by taking these sort of steps, the Israeli government actually contributes to strengthening the Hamas's appeal among the Palestinian public.

[Morch]

Would be a good time to sanction Israel by e.g. freezing all their overseas accounts.

The Israeli behave as if all occupied territory is theirs and the Palestinian state which was planned to build when the state of Israel was created is something illegal - if so the state Israel would be as illegal...

Bye,

Derk

here is an interesting legal move which perhaps could be implemented more often

British activists launch lawsuit over deadly raid on Gaza 'peace flotilla'

The UNHCR report found "clear evidence to support prosecutions" of crimes under the Geneva Convention, namely wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment and wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

Rodney Dixon QC, representing the 13 Britons as well as other passengers on board, said: "It is not possible to extradite the Israeli commanders allegedly responsible, but if they travel here and the police have sufficient evidence, they could arrest them and they can be prosecuted here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-activists-launch-lawsuit-over-deadly-raid-on-gaza-peace-flotilla-9955992.html

This is more to do with the other topics dealing with the Palestinian move to join the ICC, this one is about the Israeli counter action.

Regardless, presenting the court with relatively small scale motions is not a winning strategy.

The ICC does not deal with every instance of alleged war-crimes worldwide, and obviously got to prioritize cases taken. This was the reasoning given by the ICC's chief prosecutor when declining to take action in this case.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29934002

A more relevant question would be if the current Israeli move (withholding Palestinian tax revenues) could be itself be included in future proceedings. Not sure it would be easy to justify from a legal point of view, and it could quite probably be claimed to be an instance of collective punishment.

[Baerboxer]

Israel are only interested in the destruction of Palestine and making anything that ever has been Palestine part of Israel.

They will not stop or accept anything other than the complete destruction of Palestine.

Israel wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

[Seastallion]

When will you stop repeating the myth that Hamas are committed to the destruction of Israel? You're using many years outdated information.

As for cutting power and water...I agree with you. I, in fact would say a day, not an hour. Not that Israel allows them much water or electricity. But yes, it's a good idea.

Much better than bombing innocent children playing on a beach.

It is not a myth. Rather, denying it is.

Actually, most of the links provided to support the "reasonable Hamas" image are the outdated ones, and moreover, they are almost always referring to a few statements, which are often quoted out of context. On the other hand, there is really no shortage of various Hamas leaders stating what they are actually committed to. No need to even go back that far for that. And no, the Unity government thing got little to do with this issue - claims to the contrary disregard actual framework of that effort.

Can't see the point of utterly denying this when even the Hamas does not.

Cutting off the power to the Gaza Strip would most certainly be denounced as collective punishment, and is a violation of international law regarding obligations of the occupying force. Wouldn't it actually be better if no rockets were fired to begin with, so that no power cuts and no bombings would be considered?

I know you try to sound even-handed, and kudos to you for that, but your bias does shine through often.

The Hamas situation, as I read it, is that there are a few nutjobs still in the hierarchy. The reasonable Hamas top brass can't get rid of them and have to tolerate them, meanwhile acknowledging Israel's right to exist and working towards the unity government. It is the reasonable chaps that ultimately hold sway, though they obviously have a very difficult job. Every now and then the nutjobs mouth off, and despite the fact that they are not now representative, they are quoted with glee by, for example, right wing Israeli media.

Collective punishment? Come now, Israel does not baulk at that (numerous examples, eg evicting the family of a killed murderer and destroying the family home), and as far as collective punishments go, a 24 hour power cut HAS to be better than a bomb on a school.

I denounce bombs. I don't denounce a representative punishment such as a power cut.

It WOULD be better if no rockets were fired to begin with......but "to begin with" is a bit deceptive.

It would be better if there was no blockade and no occupation to begin with.

It would be better that Palestinians were not deprived of the very water that runs in the ground beneath their feet.

It would be better that so many of the Israeli controls, human rights abuses, murders, aggression, land thefts, farm demolitions, collective punishments etc etc etc did not happen TO BEGIN WITH.

Rockets are largely a response.

The topic is about Israel withholding Palestinian tax revenues. These funds concern the Hamas only in a roundabout way. About half the posts deal with Gaza, Hamas and rockets...

Could you, possibly, provide ANY credible source to support the presented view of Hamas? If this is deemed OT, I would appreciate a link by PM. As far as I recall, this is not the first time such notions were aired, but usually without much by way of backing up. There are divisions inside the Hamas, same as with any organization - they just do not quite conform to the notions of moderation and compromise attributed in the post. Who are these elusive Hamas moderates, then? Giving the Palestinian Unity government as a relevant example of supposed Hamas moderation is plain misinformed, not to mention worlds apart from the reality of the current situation between the two groups.

There was nothing in my post to suggest Israel does not apply collective punishment. The point was that the suggested measures will not be well received, appreciated as moderate or that they will not be denounced by international public opinion. That they are against international law is a fact, whereas not all of the IDF actions are (even when they result in civilian casualties) - laws governing these sort of things do not always intuitively make sense.

All them "would" statements refer to things piled on Israel plate. The Palestinian have naught to do with the sorry state of things? Not even an inkling of responsibility? Not a shred of control over their actions and options?

As this topic is not really about the Hamas, could posters insisting on dragging it in, at least tie it somehow to the issue at hand? The most obvious link would be to point out that by undermining Abbas's and the Fatah's domestic position by taking these sort of steps, the Israeli government actually contributes to strengthening the Hamas's appeal among the Palestinian public.

PM sent, which also debunks the myth of the myth referred to earlier above.

[mania]

This is about taxes collected by Israel for the Palestinians, not about taxes paid by the Palestinians to Israel.

Correct as stated in the OP..."This is about taxes collected by Israel for the Palestinians"

But as such the wording "withholds" is rather a dishonest swap for "theft" isn't it?

As Israel is just collecting for the Palestinians...How can keeping what is not theirs be seen

as anything less than stealing?

Lastly the reason Israel is giving for this theft/action is in reaction to Palestine trying to

join the International Criminal Court....This application to join this court is in no

way illegal is it?....In fact as many have said it could be disadvantageous to Palestine.

PS: before anyone says it...I do realize this is the given excuse

"The move drew threats of retaliation from Israel and criticism from the U.S. government, which called it "counterproductive.""

But really? It is to be expected that during any negotiations claims of wrongs will be brought forward by BOTH sides. Yet if the Palestinians decide they have gotten nowhere & choose to go this route that is a choice that should not be punished by the other side. Especially if the other side is claiming the high ground. IMHO any reaction such as this does not help Israels case If in fact they are claiming the high ground then welcome it as a chance to get things settled/defined/ruling made, with a 3rd parties if need be help since nothing else seems to be working for many decades now.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Scott

[Morch]

This is about taxes collected by Israel for the Palestinians, not about taxes paid by the Palestinians to Israel.

Correct as stated in the OP..."This is about taxes collected by Israel for the Palestinians"

But as such the wording "withholds" is rather a dishonest swap for "theft" isn't it?

As Israel is just collecting for the Palestinians...How can keeping what is not theirs be seen

as anything less than stealing?

Lastly the reason Israel is giving for this theft/action is in reaction to Palestine trying to

join the International Criminal Court....This application to join this court is in no

way illegal is it?....In fact as many have said it could be disadvantageous to Palestine.

PS: before anyone says it...I do realize this is the given excuse

"The move drew threats of retaliation from Israel and criticism from the U.S. government, which called it "counterproductive.""

But really? It is to be expected that during any negotiations claims of wrongs will be brought forward by BOTH sides.

Yet if the Palestinians decide they have gotten nowhere & choose to go this route that is a choice that should not be punished

by the other side. Especially if the other side is claiming the high ground. IMHO any reaction such as this does not help Israels case

If in fact they are claiming the high ground then welcome it as a chance to get things settled/defined/ruling made, with a 3rd parties

if need be help since nothing else seems to be working for many decades now.

That one liner post was just in-order to keep things on track. Previous posts on this topic here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/#entry8891908

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/?p=8891999

The reason I am using "withhold" rather than "steal" or "theft", is that if past instances are anything to go by the money will eventually be transferred to the Palestinians. As mentioned, the justification for withholding the money seems punitive rather than based on legal right. Had the Israeli government used the substantial outstanding Palestinian debts as reasoning, it may have been somewhat more acceptable (although, pretty sure there are issues with that as well).

The Palestinian attempts at enforcing a solution through the UNSC, and joining the ICC with the intention of bringing up charges against Israel are violations of agreements between the sides. This is not a matter of debate, but fact. It could be argued, though (as the Palestinians do), that said agreements proved useless and that Israel breached them as well. While these claims may be true (rather, the original agreements were meant as a temporary step and both sides had their fair share of infringements), and the Palestinians certainly have the right to disengage from these agreements, this cuts both ways.

For obvious reasons, both sides got different takes on whom should play the arbitrating third party, with each picking a favorable candidate (USA in the case of Israel, UN as far as the Palestinians go). Basically, the Palestinians initially agreed to accept the USA in this role (later expanded to include certain EU countries). As time went by, the USA's involvement was perceived by the Palestinian side to be biased in favor of Israel (rightly or not, this is a wee bit beyond the scope of the current topic). The current Palestinian effort reflects their disenchantment with the USA playing an impartial role (apart from significant domestic political considerations expanded upon in other topics). It can be understood why the Palestinians may feel this way and why they are trying to change the setting, but at the same time - they have agreed to some conditions, which might carry consequences in case they wish to opt out.

[mania]

That one liner post was just in-order to keep things on track. Previous posts on this topic here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/#entry8891908

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/?p=8891999

The reason I am using "withhold" rather than "steal" or "theft", is that if past instances are anything to go by the money will eventually be transferred to the Palestinians. As mentioned, the justification for withholding the money seems punitive rather than based on legal right. Had the Israeli government used the substantial outstanding Palestinian debts as reasoning, it may have been somewhat more acceptable (although, pretty sure there are issues with that as well).

The Palestinian attempts at enforcing a solution through the UNSC, and joining the ICC with the intention of bringing up charges against Israel are violations of agreements between the sides. This is not a matter of debate, but fact. It could be argued, though (as the Palestinians do), that said agreements proved useless and that Israel breached them as well. While these claims may be true (rather, the original agreements were meant as a temporary step and both sides had their fair share of infringements), and the Palestinians certainly have the right to disengage from these agreements, this cuts both ways.

For obvious reasons, both sides got different takes on whom should play the arbitrating third party, with each picking a favorable candidate (USA in the case of Israel, UN as far as the Palestinians go). Basically, the Palestinians initially agreed to accept the USA in this role (later expanded to include certain EU countries). As time went by, the USA's involvement was perceived by the Palestinian side to be biased in favor of Israel (rightly or not, this is a wee bit beyond the scope of the current topic). The current Palestinian effort reflects their disenchantment with the USA playing an impartial role (apart from significant domestic political considerations expanded upon in other topics). It can be understood why the Palestinians may feel this way and why they are trying to change the setting, but at the same time - they have agreed to some conditions, which might carry consequences in case they wish to opt out.

I was using "withhold" not as part of any previous posts but as taken from this topics headline.

I only question it as being accurate & perhaps using punish instead is better than theft

I see what your saying & accept it but at the same time whether given back later or not it is a form of punishment

for the Palestinians seeking solution or at least a non biased viable place to lodge complaints.

I do not see that as any form of wrong that should deserve any punishment.

As you said it can be argued & has been that both sides are wrong & in breach of this or that.

Also both are free to lodge such a complaint

So as such I cannot blame them for seeking another opinion that may or may not carry some weight.

Of course I can also see why they are not comfortable with the USA being that arbitrating third party...obviously & think none would

disagree at this point it is a valid concern that US opinion is tainted/biased.

This is heading into just another one of those never ending cycles of well they broke this agreement & they broke that

first & how can we agree on anything if rockets keep falling & they keep saying stop the land grabs etc etc etc

These are perpetual. That the USA has obviously picked a side is not helping anyone including the side they picked.

Best thing USA can do is step back & abstain in votes instead of picking a side. It would more likely help peace finally

be chiseled out.....Or not....But none will ever know if this continues as it has for too long

Also as you said this may also carry consequences for Palestine which is only fair if the court they seek to address also finds them guilty

of various acts...Which I would assume they will.

Edited January 5, 2015 by mania

[Morch]

That one liner post was just in-order to keep things on track. Previous posts on this topic here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/#entry8891908

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788942-israel-withholds-palestinian-tax-revenues-after-icc-move/?p=8891999

The reason I am using "withhold" rather than "steal" or "theft", is that if past instances are anything to go by the money will eventually be transferred to the Palestinians. As mentioned, the justification for withholding the money seems punitive rather than based on legal right. Had the Israeli government used the substantial outstanding Palestinian debts as reasoning, it may have been somewhat more acceptable (although, pretty sure there are issues with that as well).

The Palestinian attempts at enforcing a solution through the UNSC, and joining the ICC with the intention of bringing up charges against Israel are violations of agreements between the sides. This is not a matter of debate, but fact. It could be argued, though (as the Palestinians do), that said agreements proved useless and that Israel breached them as well. While these claims may be true (rather, the original agreements were meant as a temporary step and both sides had their fair share of infringements), and the Palestinians certainly have the right to disengage from these agreements, this cuts both ways.

For obvious reasons, both sides got different takes on whom should play the arbitrating third party, with each picking a favorable candidate (USA in the case of Israel, UN as far as the Palestinians go). Basically, the Palestinians initially agreed to accept the USA in this role (later expanded to include certain EU countries). As time went by, the USA's involvement was perceived by the Palestinian side to be biased in favor of Israel (rightly or not, this is a wee bit beyond the scope of the current topic). The current Palestinian effort reflects their disenchantment with the USA playing an impartial role (apart from significant domestic political considerations expanded upon in other topics). It can be understood why the Palestinians may feel this way and why they are trying to change the setting, but at the same time - they have agreed to some conditions, which might carry consequences in case they wish to opt out.

I was using "withhold" not as part of any previous posts but as taken from this topics headline.

I only question it as being accurate & perhaps using punish instead is better than theft

I see what your saying & accept it but at the same time whether given back later or not it is a form of punishment

for the Palestinians seeking solution or at least a non biased viable place to lodge complaints.

I do not see that as any form of wrong that should deserve any punishment.

As you said it can be argued & has been that both sides are wrong & in breach of this or that.

Also both are free to lodge such a complaint

So as such I cannot blame them for seeking another opinion that may or may not carry some weight.

Of course I can also see why they are not comfortable with the USA being that arbitrating third party...obviously & think none would

disagree at this point it is a valid concern that US opinion is tainted/biased.

This is heading into just another one of those never ending cycles of well they broke this agreement & they broke that

first & how can we agree on anything if rockets keep falling & they keep saying stop the land grabs etc etc etc

These are perpetual. That the USA has obviously picked a side is not helping anyone including the side they picked.

Best thing USA can do is step back & abstain in votes instead of picking a side. It would more likely help peace finally

be chiseled out.....Or not....But none will ever know if this continues as it has for too long

Also as you said this may also carry consequences for Palestine which is only fair if the court they seek to address also finds them guilty

of various acts...Which I would assume they will.

There is no argument that this is a punitive measure taken by Israel in response to the Palestinian move.

When mentioning the possible consequences for the Palestinian side as a result of their latest actions, it was such measures which were referred to, not the possible legal backfire from joining the ICC. The Israeli government declared that this is just a first step, and that other punitive measures will be taken - seems like the next one is applying pressure on the USA to cut the transfer of financial aid to the PA (in this case, the punitive measure is included in the relevant USA bill, and apparently clearly states going to the ICJ/ICC as a breach). If my understanding is correct, then the combined circumstances of the Republican majority and the bill not allowing the President much space to maneuver, this could indeed happen. The USA aid amounts to about three times what Israel already withholds.

While the USA may not be an objective mediator, it does not make the UNGE, or the UNSC to be objective mediators as well.

This is not so much about the Palestinians wishing for an objective mediator, but more correctly a favorable one - fair enough,

it is what Israel been doing all along as well.

The current situation might be, if not a turning point, then at least a milestone. It is hard to see how Israel can sustain further punitive actions against the PA without making things in the West Bank getting worse for all involved (except, probably, for the Hamas). The PA will be hard pressed to sustain itself lacking much needed funds, which could spell chaos (the PA sometimes threats to either cease security coordination with Israel or even entirely handing back responsibility for the West Bank). At the same time, hard to see Abbas backing down without any achievement, or the incumbent Israeli government (totally right wing now) will go soft without losing too much face and electoral support from their home crowd. And all this takes place while Israel is in the middle of a general elections campaign, which only serves to make things even more complicated.

[Morch]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

[Bwanatickey]

USA and Israel do not sign upto this court, and then they protest at the terror group wanting to sign upto this.

American lawyers are the best Jewish minds in the world.

[Jingthing]

USA and Israel do not sign upto this court, and then they protest at the terror group wanting to sign upto this.

American lawyers are the best Jewish minds in the world.

Who are the best Jewish minds in the world (not Netanyahu that's for sure) is an interesting question. But I think not really so much a question for this thread any more than which are the best Arab minds in the world (not Abbas that's for sure).

Edited January 5, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

.....when your country is invaded.....occupied...taken over......

...and you are put in fenced enclosures.......

...how can the world sit idly by.....

...and they should be expected to pay taxes to their occupiers as well......???

This is about taxes collected by Israel for the Palestinians, not about taxes paid by the Palestinians to Israel.

So now the Israelis steal Palestinian money as well as their land. Money that would have been used to pay salaries to feed families.

It looks like The Palestinians have yet another case of collective punishment to bring before the ICC.

[dexterm]

Morch wrote; (sorry.. missed quote button)

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them

The Oslo Accords of 1993 are dead. 22 years of negotiations have been a complete waste of time for the Palestinians. The Israelis have never had any intention of negotiating a peace agreement. Talks were just a smokescreen for Israel to steal more land.

A Palestinian state is unviable now anyway with the minuscule amount of land left. Let Israel fall into the one state solution trap, inheriting 4 million Palestinians.

Then Israel can then either resort to full blown apartheid or more ethnic cleansing to solve their "demographic problem".

At least the struggle for justice for the Palestinians will be clearer to a global audience, without all this deflection and shilly shallying about what human rights organizations the occupiers will allow the victims to join.

Edited January 6, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Israel are only interested in the destruction of Palestine and making anything that ever has been Palestine part of Israel.

They will not stop or accept anything other than the complete destruction of Palestine.

Israel wanted to talk, and talk and talk. Israel was attacked in wars and defended herself. Israel wanted to talk, Then came the terrorist war - the modern war, attacking soft targets.

Is it surprising that after so many years of wanting to talk and being repeatedly kicked in the teeth and despised Israel has changed? It has had to change to combat the changes in those attacking it at every chance. Israel knows the solution must be negotiated but how can negotiations take place with a fractious negotiating partner who wants for fire rockets and bomb people whilst talking?

Time the Palestinians stopped allowing other Moslem interests to use them as puppets.

Israel has never wanted to talk seriously about peace with its neighbors. Negotiations have always been simply a deflection.

If they were serious about peace talks why keep building colonies on land which you know is needed for a future Palestinian state....sort of defeats the purpose really.

Israel should do what it intended all along ...a one state solution. But they have shot themselves in the foot with all these delaying tactics and land grabs. What are they going to do with 4 million Palestinian refugees they now will have to absorb or ethnically cleanse.? The whole world is watching this time via social media. Much easier if they had tackled the problem 30 years ago with a just 2 state solution, with a chance of preserving a state with some Jewish character.

As it is they will one day just become another Middle Eastern Arab country.

[dexterm]

It seems srtange to me that Hamas ans the Palestinians are willing to put themselved on the line at the ICC yet the Israelis and USA refuse to sign up. If their hands are that clean that why should they not sign up?

Might have to do with not all nations being as trusting with regard to certain biases evident in some international bodies. The USA and Israel are not alone in this regard, as can be shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#mediaviewer/File:ICC_member_states.svg

Your linked map puts the USA and Israel in bed with the likes of such freedom loving countries as Iran, Russia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan. China, Turkmenistan Uzbekistan. They too have a lot to hide.

[NeverSure]

It seems srtange to me that Hamas ans the Palestinians are willing to put themselved on the line at the ICC yet the Israelis and USA refuse to sign up. If their hands are that clean that why should they not sign up?

Might have to do with not all nations being as trusting with regard to certain biases evident in some international bodies. The USA and Israel are not alone in this regard, as can be shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#mediaviewer/File:ICC_member_states.svg

Your linked map puts the USA and Israel in bed with the likes of such freedom loving countries as Iran, Russia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan. China, Turkmenistan Uzbekistan. They too have a lot to hide.

Who has the USA ever hidden from? It just doesn't sign things is doesn't agree with.

The USA has a history of not signing on to international agreements but rather remaining independent. Europe has a history of joining motley groups and signing it's soul away.

The USA and Israel will be standing long after maps show a Union of Islamic Europe rather than individual countries.

[Seastallion]

Rivlin slams Netanyahu: Freezing Palestinian tax revenues harms Israel's interests

President Reuven Rivlin on Monday slammed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over his decision to freeze the transfer of tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, telling a closed meeting of more than 30 Israeli envoys to Europe that the move was damaging to Israel.

Two of the Israel ambassadors present at the meeting at the President's Residence in Jerusalem told Haaretz that Rivlin stressed that the Palestinian Authority's application to the International Criminal Court in The Hague was an attempt by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to prevent direct negotiations with Israel and force it into an agreement on his terms, without Palestinian concessions.

The two ambassadors said Rivlin emphasized that the Palestinian efforts were in violation of the Oslo Accords and that the Israeli government must respond, but with careful considerations that would aid Israel's interests – and not harm them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.635462

Lets see now.....

Prosecuting crimes is Palestine contravening the Oslo Accords.

Stealing the water in the ground from under the feet of thirsty Palestinians is Israel contravening the Oslo Accords.

One results in criminals facing justice, a good thing surely, and the other results in lush Israeli settler lawns while Palestinians have to ration their drinking water just to survive.

And people support Israel? The mind boggles.

[dexterm]

It seems srtange to me that Hamas ans the Palestinians are willing to put themselved on the line at the ICC yet the Israelis and USA refuse to sign up. If their hands are that clean that why should they not sign up?

Might have to do with not all nations being as trusting with regard to certain biases evident in some international bodies. The USA and Israel are not alone in this regard, as can be shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court#mediaviewer/File:ICC_member_states.svg

Your linked map puts the USA and Israel in bed with the likes of such freedom loving countries as Iran, Russia, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan. China, Turkmenistan Uzbekistan. They too have a lot to hide.

Who has the USA ever hidden from? It just doesn't sign things is doesn't agree with.

The USA has a history of not signing on to international agreements but rather remaining independent. Europe has a history of joining motley groups and signing it's soul away.

The USA and Israel will be standing long after maps show a Union of Islamic Europe rather than individual countries.

Who has the USA ever hidden from?

Where do I begin? Better check with Wikileaks data for starters.

USA was pretty keen to prosecute war criminals after WW2 and is fond of extraditing Holocaust war criminals for Israel's and the Simon Wiesenthal Center's benefit.

Not so enthusiastic when the war criminals may be among their own soldiers and politicians or their racist ally in the Middle East..

[JingerBen]

The irrational over the top demonization of Israel marches on ...

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Israelis do a very good job of demonizing themselves with their slaughter and dispossession of the Palestinians.

[Morch]

USA and Israel do not sign upto this court, and then they protest at the terror group wanting to sign upto this.

American lawyers are the best Jewish minds in the world.

Who are the best Jewish minds in the world (not Netanyahu that's for sure) is an interesting question. But I think not really so much a question for this thread any more than which are the best Arab minds in the world (not Abbas that's for sure).

Not to mention that the PA is not designated as a terrorist organization, by anyone.

[Seastallion]

USA and Israel do not sign upto this court, and then they protest at the terror group wanting to sign upto this.

American lawyers are the best Jewish minds in the world.

Who are the best Jewish minds in the world (not Netanyahu that's for sure) is an interesting question. But I think not really so much a question for this thread any more than which are the best Arab minds in the world (not Abbas that's for sure).

Not to mention that the PA is not designated as a terrorist organization, by anyone.

What is often overlooked is that the UK does not consider Hamas a terror organisation, either. Just Hamas' military wing.

[Steely Dan]

I wonder whether Abbas will go to the ICC regarding the near 3000 Palestinians killed in Syria, or indeed sundry crimes against Palestinians by other Arab nations which would have given Israel derangement syndrome frothers a (deserved) thrombosis,had Israel been responsible. I think we all know the answers as well as precisely what would happen to the Palestinians if they tried to pull such a stunt against their Arab neighbors, it certainly would not be withholding of tax revenues.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5008/war-crimes-against-palestinians

[Ulysses G.]

What is often overlooked is that the UK does not consider Hamas a terror organisation, either. Just Hamas' military wing.

Sounds like nitpicking. Hamas military wing is part of the organization and the Hamas Charter calls for genocide against Jews, incorporates classic themes of European Judeophobia, such as the Protocols, and blames the Jews for starting world wars, etc. It is not merely an anti-Israel document.