UK immigration. What would happen if..?

barry553 · March 10, 2015

I am currently living in Thailand with my Thai wife and a child. I am a British citizen and thus my child is also. I have been thinking about what would happen if I took the both of them back to the UK with her on a visitor visa and she overstayed? All along my intention was for them both to live in the UK. I didn't apply for a settlement visa because I was not sure I could secure employment at £20,000 a year in the area I want to live. If 6 months down the line the wife declared she was overstaying would she definitely be required to leave or would she able to stay on the basis that she is the mother of a British citizen? I have no great desire to go back to England but I do worry about what would happen if things go t*ts up here in Thailand. I also worry about my child's future and if it is best for them to come to the UK why should the family be split up because of this arbitrary financial requirement?

beano2274 · March 10, 2015

I do know of someone in a similar situation, however the child had only a Thai passport, the mother overstayed and was deported with the child, she reapplied for a visa, but lied on the application form and now has a 10 year ban.

The husband and father of the child is still in the UK

maxtwo · March 10, 2015

What ever plan you come up with do not over stay !

nzexpat · March 10, 2015

Pose your question in the "Visa and migration to other countries" forum .

I suspect you will not enjoy the responses !

maidee · March 11, 2015

you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

tgeezer · March 11, 2015

I wonder what would force you to return, what does 'if things go tits up' mean?

It depends on how you and your wife feels about the life you have here in Thailand. Does she have a circle of family and friends because that is irreplaceable in the UK? The UK, like marriage to a Farang, isn't always all it's cracked up to be. I've been visiting Thailand and have friends over more than thirty years and have found that one has to face some truths about oneself and ones situation which are not always palatable.

On topic: the UK is a great place for illegals who have nothing to lose, who the authorities can't touch, but not so good for people like you and your family if you break the rules. If things go tits up here and you can become a refugee then you are in 'hog heaven' so don't worry about that scenario.

ToddinChonburi · March 11, 2015

Great how countries shit on there own citizens and ignore the illegals. Maybe if they deported all the illegals there would be a job for you and your wife.

barry553 · March 11, 2015

I wonder what would force you to return, what does 'if things go tits up' mean?

It depends on how you and your wife feels about the life you have here in Thailand. Does she have a circle of family and friends because that is irreplaceable in the UK? The UK, like marriage to a Farang, isn't always all it's cracked up to be. I've been visiting Thailand and have friends over more than thirty years and have found that one has to face some truths about oneself and ones situation which are not always palatable.

On topic: the UK is a great place for illegals who have nothing to lose, who the authorities can't touch, but not so good for people like you and your family if you break the rules. If things go tits up here and you can become a refugee then you are in 'hog heaven' so don't worry about that scenario.

Interesting that you say you have to face some home truths about yourself but wouldn't you have to do that anywhere as an expat? I don't get why some people think Thailand is special. It really isn't. I find that Thai people as a whole suffer from the delusion that they are special and a few farangs reinforce that. I don't like the culture here, that would be something I want to get away from.

Things going tits up could mean I run out of money, emergency medical situation etc.

I also don't get what you mean about becoming a refugee and would then be in hog heaven...

sometimewoodworker · March 11, 2015

you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

You would not have to overstay in a Shengen country as your wife will be entitled to, and get, a visa as the wife of an EU citizen. Edited March 11, 2015 by sometimewoodworker

meltingpot2015 · March 11, 2015

I wonder what would force you to return, what does 'if things go tits up' mean?

It depends on how you and your wife feels about the life you have here in Thailand. Does she have a circle of family and friends because that is irreplaceable in the UK? The UK, like marriage to a Farang, isn't always all it's cracked up to be. I've been visiting Thailand and have friends over more than thirty years and have found that one has to face some truths about oneself and ones situation which are not always palatable.

On topic: the UK is a great place for illegals who have nothing to lose, who the authorities can't touch, but not so good for people like you and your family if you break the rules. If things go tits up here and you can become a refugee then you are in 'hog heaven' so don't worry about that scenario.

Interesting that you say you have to face some home truths about yourself but wouldn't you have to do that anywhere as an expat? I don't get why some people think Thailand is special. It really isn't. I find that Thai people as a whole suffer from the delusion that they are special and a few farangs reinforce that. I don't like the culture here, that would be something I want to get away from.
Things going tits up could mean I run out of money, emergency medical situation etc.

I also don't get what you mean about becoming a refugee and would then be in hog heaven...

hog heaven = american slang. Check here and here. Hope he's not saying refugees are pigs.

Edited March 11, 2015 by meltingpot2015

tgeezer · March 11, 2015

I wonder what would force you to return, what does 'if things go tits up' mean?

It depends on how you and your wife feels about the life you have here in Thailand. Does she have a circle of family and friends because that is irreplaceable in the UK? The UK, like marriage to a Farang, isn't always all it's cracked up to be. I've been visiting Thailand and have friends over more than thirty years and have found that one has to face some truths about oneself and ones situation which are not always palatable.

On topic: the UK is a great place for illegals who have nothing to lose, who the authorities can't touch, but not so good for people like you and your family if you break the rules. If things go tits up here and you can become a refugee then you are in 'hog heaven' so don't worry about that scenario.

Interesting that you say you have to face some home truths about yourself but wouldn't you have to do that anywhere as an expat? I don't get why some people think Thailand is special. It really isn't. I find that Thai people as a whole suffer from the delusion that they are special and a few farangs reinforce that. I don't like the culture here, that would be something I want to get away from.
Things going tits up could mean I run out of money, emergency medical situation etc.

I also don't get what you mean about becoming a refugee and would then be in hog heaven...

Being in 'hog heaven' is to be forced to live in the UK as a refugee, with all the help that the state has to give you plus, if your wife missed Thailand, without the option of returning she would have to make the best of it.

One unpalatable truth is what I feared, you are in a culture that you "want to get away from", marriage makes getting away problematic.

tgeezer · March 11, 2015

hog heaven = american slang. Check here and here. Hope he's not saying refugees are pigs.

If you had read either of your links yourself then you would know that I am "not saying refugees are pigs".

daveyravey · March 11, 2015

The sad fact here is that the minimum income of 18,600 pounds a year is very hard to secure for average people returning back to the UK. Add in the visa fees and TB tests and English tests and it becomes near impossible for a lot of people to take their wives/husbands and kids to the UK.Famillies are split apart.

What really bugs me is when you read about Jihadi Johns family getting houses paid for costing 10's of thousands a year, dole, assistance and their kids piss off to Iraq beheading westerners and hating the west.

This is a crazy world we live in!

Donutz · March 11, 2015

Overstay is a bad idea, living as an illegal ain’t much fun!

If meeting the (silly, arbitrary) immigration rules in the UK (and other countries) are a problem you could decide to do the Surrinder Sign (SS) route, also known as the EU route: migrating to any other EU national with your Thai family members (spouse, children) under the Freedom of Movement rules (EU Directive 2004/38/EC), which basically means that if you are legally and genuinely married and your family is no “ unreasonable burden” to the host state, one is welcome in any EU country except the one that the EU citizen is a national of (discrimination to citizens in their own country is fine by the EU, memberstates don’t like the EU telling them what to do…).

Illegals including overstayers in most (all?) of the EU face penalties such as deportation, fines, bans etc. For Schengen members this information is registrated in a shared system (VIS: visa information system and so are bans in the SIS: Schengen Information System), to which UKVI also has access.

Being a refugee is not a life of joy! Genuine refugees who lost everything do get temporary shelter and (if their status is acknowledged) priority or help with getting a rental house or regular house and some pocket money. Not too much for those who have lost everything I’d say. Imagen western Europe being blasted back to the stone age and rather then being given shelter and a helping hand to get your life back on track they’d let you rot away in a refugee camp?! Sure there are fake refugees out there, “ economical refugees” as you could call them or scum that commit horrible crimes, the authorities try to filter those out. Some people will still prefer living as an illegal though, the type that has nothing left to lose. Would you wish to live as a beggar in the streets? Those that answer yes, then overstay is the way to go. Sensible people who take the long term into account will look into more viable approaches such as living in an other EU country for atleast a while.

LostDemocracy · March 11, 2015

you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

His wife would need visas for any Shengen country. To obtain one you need to show return tickets, hotels booked, money etc. Its not that easy unless you arrive by dangerous, overcrowded boat from Libya. Never lie to the Brit Embassy or Immigration, they will find you out and then you are scuppered.

LostDemocracy · March 11, 2015

Great how countries shit on there own citizens and ignore the illegals. Maybe if they deported all the illegals there would be a job for you and your wife.

That's the UK for you.

Donutz · March 11, 2015

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you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

His wife would need visas for any Shengen country. To obtain one you need to show return tickets, hotels booked, money etc. Its not that easy unless you arrive by dangerous, overcrowded boat from Libya. Never lie to the Brit Embassy or Immigration, they will find you out and then you are scuppered.

He is a UK citizen, they are married, they travel to an other EU/EEA country -> they are covered by freedom of movement (Directive 200438) and eligable for a free visa, issued ASAP with minimal paperwork (basically just the marital papers, no need for flighttickets, bookings, Insurance, showing financial solvability etc. etc.). This could be for just a short holiday or settlement, aslng as you won't be a burden for the EU state concerned.

More info: see the Schengen sticky on this forum (or those from a Schengen nation who wish to go to the UK, see the British EU/EEA permit)

Thank you EU.

LostDemocracy · March 11, 2015

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you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

His wife would need visas for any Shengen country. To obtain one you need to show return tickets, hotels booked, money etc. Its not that easy unless you arrive by dangerous, overcrowded boat from Libya. Never lie to the Brit Embassy or Immigration, they will find you out and then you are scuppered.

He is a UK citizen, they are married, they travel to an other EU/EEA country -> they are covered by freedom of movement (Directive 200438) and eligable for a free visa, issued ASAP with minimal paperwork (basically just the marital papers, no need for flighttickets, bookings, Insurance, showing financial solvability etc. etc.). This could be for just a short holiday or settlement, aslng as you won't be a burden for the EU state concerned.

More info: see the Schengen sticky on this forum (or those from a Schengen nation who wish to go to the UK, see the British EU/EEA permit)

Thank you EU.

The UK is not in the Schengen.

Donutz · March 11, 2015

Correct, (sadly IMHO) Britain is not part of the Schengen agreement. Hence why I wrote that those EU nationals who from a Schengen (or more precise: any EU nation) who wish to travel to the UK with their THai spouse should get a free EU/EEA permit as the UK is still bound to Directive 2004/38. Freedom of movement (people. goods, property etc.) being one pretty much the founding principle of the EU.

Your post that he as a UK citizen would need a Schengen visa with all the usual requirements for his Thai wife was incorrect so that is what I tried to point out. Infact in theory you could apply for a visa at the external border (not that an airliner would let a Thai board though without visa or residence papers) or you could even travel around the EU without visa (MRAX ruling of the ECJ, European Court of Justice), but that would open a whole can of worms, so it's best to get a visa in advance and not to overstay.

LostDemocracy · March 11, 2015

Correct, (sadly IMHO) Britain is not part of the Schengen agreement. Hence why I wrote that those EU nationals who from a Schengen (or more precise: any EU nation) who wish to travel to the UK with their THai spouse should get a free EU/EEA permit as the UK is still bound to Directive 2004/38. Freedom of movement (people. goods, property etc.) being one pretty much the founding principle of the EU.

Your post that he as a UK citizen would need a Schengen visa with all the usual requirements for his Thai wife was incorrect so that is what I tried to point out. Infact in theory you could apply for a visa at the external border (not that an airliner would let a Thai board though without visa or residence papers) or you could even travel around the EU without visa (MRAX ruling of the ECJ, European Court of Justice), but that would open a whole can of worms, so it's best to get a visa in advance and not to overstay.

I didn't mean he would need a visa, she would.

Jonmarleesco · March 11, 2015

'I am a British citizen and thus my child is also.' Are you sure about that? That's only recently been made automatic.

As for overstaying: she being the mother of a 'British citizen' would, as in Thailand, be no basis for claiming the right to stay (might work better if she started out as an illegal immigrant). But the basic visa is, in any case, of six months validity, and longer-term ones are available. So a moot point, I should have thought.

Paul888 · March 11, 2015

I understand the OP is just "thinking aloud" but to me it is the lack of any flexibility in the existing rules that forces people that want to keep their family together to find workarounds like the SS route or getting a 6 month visa and overstaying.

I am in a similar position. After around 10 years in Thailand, I have decided that the time is right to return home. I would like to take my wife and 2 young British children with me. I am not short of motivation. My parents are in ever declining health and need me to offer more by way of hands on help, my children are in need of a better education than they can get here plus I could probably do with a few more years of National Insurance contributions to boost my state pension if my retirement lifestyle aspiration is beyond a couple of cups of coffee a day.

I am not worried that I will be able to find employment at £18,600+ but I don't imagine that I will be able to accomplish it before I arrive back home which means that, I have to go first and leave my wife and children here for however long it takes me to secure said employment and then immediately ask for time off to come back to Thailand to help my wife juggle the kids in the school holidays and possible multiple trips from Chiang Rai to Bangkok for the settlement visa application process.

Or worse, if my prior year's variable amount overseas income is not deemed 'acceptable', it will take me 6 months at least to get the necessary pay slips to even be in the position where I would be able to apply.

My own idea of the workaround, would be apply for a 6 month's visa for my wife in the first place so that we could all be together in England whilst I got all my ducks in a row and had accrued some holiday entitlement and then return to Thailand with them to submit the settlement visa together and while it is extremely unlikely that we would be able to accomplish that in around 2 to 3 weeks, a short separation at that time wouldn't be the end of the world.

But the problem that we have is that we would need to convince an ECO that a woman who does not have a job (although she owns 3 fully paid for houses) and has 2 children with British passports and one at University in Thailand "would have reason to return and not overstay".

If only being innocent until proven guilty applied to Immigration matters.

Anybody considered or done similar to this or think it is worth trying?

7by7 · March 11, 2015

There is a lot of misinformation and ignorant ranting in this topic so far from people who obviously know nothing about the UK's immigration rules, what benefits illegal immigrants to the UK are entitled to (none!) or the EU freedom of movement regulations and have based their unhelpful remarks on what they have read in the Daily Express!

To be blunt, Barry, the only poster so far you should pay any attention to is Donutz!

To answer your question.

If your wife overstayed a visit visa she would, of course, be in the UK illegally.

Like any other illegal, she would be unable to work, claim any public funds, or access any public services such as the NHS.

If discovered, she would be deported and subject to a possible ban from the UK for up to 10 years; even life in extreme cases.

You could even be sent to prison for aiding and abetting her.

That she has a British child will not change this.

The only possible way she could apply to remain in the UK on the basis of having a British child would be if you were to completely abandon her and the child so that she became the sole carer and means of support for the child.

Do not even consider it.

BTW, as your child is British then if you do decide to move back to the UK you do not have to meet the additional financial requirement for a child; just that for a spouse. Currently an income of at least £18,600 p.a. or cash savings of £62,500.

Note that cash savings in excess of £16,000 can be used to reduce the required income.

I agree with you that these minimums are way to high; but that has been discussed here at length on several previous occasions.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 7by7

7by7 · March 11, 2015

Paul;

People have successfully done as you suggest; wife comes to UK as a visitor while husband works for 6 months to meet the financial requirement.

Wife then returns to Thailand at the expiry of the visit visa to apply for settlement.

The problem, as you say, is convincing the ECO that she will, indeed, do this and not overstay illegally in the UK at the end of the visit.

Make it plain in your covering letter for the visit visa application that she is accompanying you to the UK as a visitor while you satisfy the settlement financial requirement to avoid separating the family for a lengthy period and that you are both aware of the rules and will abide by them.

bobrussell · March 11, 2015

I have to say this is the most misinformed thread I have seen on the site ever!

7by7 and Donutz know what they are talking about.

Overstaying carries great risks. Some individuals chose to live with the risk of consequences but for most people the stress of being in the UK illegally is just not worth it. The rules are tough, probably too tough but they are what they are.

A UK citizen can settle in the Schengen area relatively easily compared to the UK. If you chose to settle in your own country the rules are tougher everywhere in the EU.

Illegal immigrants almost by definition are non-EU citizens and have to live and work beneath the radar, risking deportation at all stages. They do not have it easy and they do not get taxpayer help. Asylum seekers, quite rightly do until such time as the validity of their claim is assessed. If the decision is to refuse, they have to leave!

sometimewoodworker · March 11, 2015

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you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

His wife would need visas for any Shengen country. To obtain one you need to show return tickets, hotels booked, money etc. Its not that easy unless you arrive by dangerous, overcrowded boat from Libya. Never lie to the Brit Embassy or Immigration, they will find you out and then you are scuppered.

as Donutz has pointed out for British nationals spouses (because they are married to someone who is from a member country of the EU) all Shengen visas are free there are no tickets, money, insurance requirements. I know I've done it, I did however have to explain the rules to the embassy of the country I got the visa from. I guess the Norwegian embassy in Tokyo doesn't have many people like us applying:)

sometimewoodworker · March 11, 2015

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

you just run to one of those shengen countries and overstay there ... if my home country accepts illegal workers and not deport them, why would they deport a UK citizen and his legal family... you might even ask for social security ... family allocations, free house

His wife would need visas for any Shengen country. To obtain one you need to show return tickets, hotels booked, money etc. Its not that easy unless you arrive by dangerous, overcrowded boat from Libya. Never lie to the Brit Embassy or Immigration, they will find you out and then you are scuppered.

as Donutz has pointed out for British nationals spouses (because they are married to someone who is from a member country of the EU) all Shengen visas are free there are no tickets, money, insurance requirements. I know I've done it, I did however have to explain the rules to the embassy of the country I got the visa from. I guess the Norwegian embassy in Tokyo doesn't have many people like us applying:)

LostDemocracy · March 11, 2015

A friend of mine, British, lived in Thailand for 20 years, Thai wife, children etc. I emailed him today. This is what he said:

In a nutshell, she gets a UK non settlement visa, which is a pain in the arse to get, dealing with an impersonal, chaotic, outsourced agency who don't process the visa on time and only give it out when you beg them and write silly letters to explain why she needs the visa to fly to the UK the next day.

For France its a Schengen visa. Less stupid repeating questions to answer on the online application than the UK visa, but the same disinterested agency hoops to jump through, except in French.

That's pretty much it.

moobie · March 11, 2015

The OP needs to address his "support network" back in the UK to fully realise his options.

Where will he live, what area, schools in the area, level of family support, does he qualify of any welfare benefits*, etc?

(*Take it from me, claiming Job Seekers Allowance (JSA) is a chore and just Google that word plus the word "Sanction" for the full import of how the DWP operates. And as he returning to the UK from outside of the EU he doesn't qualify for JSA for 3 months after returning - He needs to prove Habitual Residency requirements.)

The OP needs to keep looking for further changes to rules and regulations which seem to be becoming stricter on a day by day basis.

Slightly astray but for those who say that the £18,600/annum figure is too high it should be noted that £27,000/annum is the figure claimed to differentiate if you are a giver or a taker regarding tax in the UK. And I think the latter was once proposed as the former until overturned after some debate. The question is will this requirement figure increase this year?

7by7 · March 12, 2015

Slightly astray but for those who say that the £18,600/annum figure is too high it should be noted that £27,000/annum is the figure claimed to differentiate if you are a giver or a taker regarding tax in the UK. And I think the latter was once proposed as the former until overturned after some debate. The question is will this requirement figure increase this year?

As you say, wandering off topic; but £18,600 was chosen as this is the annual income above which a British couple is ineligible for any income based public funds.

For a similar reason, if using cash savings towards the requirement the first £16,000 is discounted.

These figures have remained the same since the requirement was introduced in 2012; simply because the figures they are based upon haven't changed. If/when they do expect the requirement to do so as well.

But the government expects a British couple, both over 18, on income support to live on £113.70 p.w. (source), that's £5912.40 p.a., plus rent.

So why does the government demand a couple where one partner is a non EEA immigrant have a much higher income?

Much fairer, and more logical, surely to base the figure on the income support level for a family of the same size plus their housing costs, whether that be rent or a mortgage?

Which to all intents and purposes was the situation prior to this fixed requirement being introduced.

There are various cases wending their way through the courts on the unfairness of a fixed, inflexible income requiremet as we speak. The government keep losing, but as they appeal to the next court up every time expect them to go all the way to the ECJ or ECtHR before a binding decision is made. That's gpoing to take a few more years yet.

In addition this arbitrary figure takes absolutely no account of outgoings.

For example:-

Sponsor A earns £18,600 p.a. He has a mortgage, debt repayments and other financial commitments totalling £10,000 p.a. He meets the requirement.
Sponsor B earns £18,599 p.a. His mortgage is paid off, no debts to service and no other financial commitments. He doesn't meet the requirement.

Ludicrous!

Who is better able to support his wife? The answer is obvious; but the government ignore it.

Again, before the changes which introduced this fixed requirement such outgoings were taken into account by ECOs when assessing whether or not the family could support themselves.

Sorry; rant over.

Edited March 12, 2015 by 7by7

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