Thai editorial: Are we being railroaded by China?

[webfact]

EDITORIAL
Are we being railroaded by China?
The Nation

The govt risks losing out to Beijing over development of a high-speed rail system

BANGKOK: -- In its haste to make a deal with China for development of a high-speed rail system in Thailand, the military-backed government seems to have placed the national interest in jeopardy.

Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha is making a concerted effort to get work started on the Nong Khai-Bangkok-Map Ta Phut line while he is still in office, as visible proof that his military government has achieved something.

General Prayut has chosen to ignore warnings that his coup-installed government has no legitimate mandate to make decisions on any major infrastructure. Furthermore, his government seems to be paying a high price, literally, for hustling through the rail deal.

At a meeting in Nong Khai last week, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong and China Railway Corp deputy manager Huang Min agreed on a division of labour under the deal.

Many other details have yet to be settled, but the government is forging ahead to meet a strict timeline. However, time-constrained negotiations won't yield a positive result for Thailand, since we have little bargaining power.

Prajin reported that China Railways Corp and China Railway Construction Corp should by August complete surveying and designs for Phase 1 of the project (Bangkok-Kaeng Khoi, Saraburi) and Phase 2 (Kaeng Khoi-Map Ta Phut).

The same preparations for Phase 3 (Kaeng Khoi-Nakhon Ratchasima) and Phase 4 (Nakhon Ratchasima-Nong Khai) are scheduled for completion by December.

The deal features an unusual investment arrangement. Rather than request that both sides put in capital - a common practice in joint ventures - Prayut's government agreed to fund the project from its own coffers, aided by a Chinese loan.

The Thai government has agreed to allocate funds for land and some basic infrastructure, while borrowing from China for the track and signalling system. China's Ex-Im Bank has offered a 20-year loan at 2 per cent interest with a grace period of six years. The offer is expensive compared with other, similar international arrangements. Prajin said he would negotiate for a reduced rate and longer grace period, but the Chinese bank has conceded little apart from saying the rate would drop if the loan increased.

The division of labour agreed to last week suggests that Thailand, and perhaps Prajin himself, know a good deal less about high-speed rail than the Chinese. Under the accord Thailand would handle work on the basic infrastructure - the laying of track and power supply. Advanced technology and the signalling system would be the responsibility of China.

Both countries would share in operation and maintenance. China has sole responsibility for train operations and rolling stock in the first three years, followed by a four-year period of joint management, after which China will be relegated to a purely advisory role.

China has agreed to Thailand's request to train staff and transfer technology to the Transport Ministry, State Railway of Thailand and the private sector. Short-term courses of several months' duration will begin in August, while courses lasting a year or more will kick off before the end of the year.

More important to note is the advantage to China of using standard-gauge tracks (the rails 1.435 metres apart), which mean its trains can ferry cargo and visitors from Kunming via Laos to Bangkok and Map Ta Phut. This means that Thailand will owe China money for building a railway for trains operated by China for China's benefit. The Thai government should tell the public exactly what benefits Thailand will receive in turn.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Are-we-being-railroaded-by-China-30256164.html


-- The Nation 2015-03-17

[BSJ]

The benefit to Thailand will be......................I am thinking...........................still thinking.........................oh cum on, what's the rush...........................

[chooka]

Should a temporary fill in pm and the army be making such huge long term expensive commitments? Shouldn't such thing wait until there is an election and a government is elected. I thought Prayuth's only goal was reform and reconciliation. He appears to have got derailed on his objective or he plans to stay around forever.

[Your Thainess]

The man is a liar.

There's a reason he and his brother are 'unusually wealthy'.

[ExPratt]

I would imagine now the Chinese will go flat out to get it started before any election. Far easier for a new Government to stop a job that hasn't started

[Prbkk]

China stands to make billions out of strategic investments in Thai infrastructure. Thailand counters with a 1000B fine for a Chinese tourist who washed her feet in a public toilet. Sounds right.

[NongKhaiKid]

Good chance the old saying " You ain't seen nothing yet " will apply.

[ezzra]

The short answer... Yes... the long answer... hell yes....

Nothing that China give or do is for free, everything has many and long strings attached

to them, however for the shortsighted Thai government is, their motto is, let's up do

our best to appease the masses in any costly means possible, and let the next governments

and generations pay for it, and as the French people say: après moi le dé·luge

[trogers]

I would tend to look at the total price before looking into the terms.

In the past, total price includes a large chunk of kickbacks. So it does not matter if the interest rates is lower by 0.5%.

[Ulic]

Thailand is not being railroaded by China, they are being sucked into a whirlpool that will drown Thailand.

A little sugar now and a 4th rate high speed rail line built using pirated technology and substandard

building practices. China will make of like bandits with the cost of maintenance as well as get there

highly desired high speed rail link to Singapore.

[trogers]

Thailand is not being railroaded by China, they are being sucked into a whirlpool that will drown Thailand.

A little sugar now and a 4th rate high speed rail line built using pirated technology and substandard

building practices. China will make of like bandits with the cost of maintenance as well as get there

highly desired high speed rail link to Singapore.

I doubt Singapore wants this 'high speed' rail link, being only 40km across in its longest length.

[Jai Dee]

A couple of inappropriate posts have been removed from this thread.

[soalbundy]

Give it a few years and he might find himself in the same position as Yingluck now

[DonaldBattles]

I notice that there is no talk or information regarding the train from Chiang Kong in Chiang Rai Province. Has anyone heard anything regarding this project? The Chinese wanted to do this project also.

[tomacht8]

So how much costs the fun all together?
Here it is so little concrete information to read.

Many other details have yet to be settled, but the government is forging ahead to meet a strict timeline. However, time-constrained negotiations won't yield a positive result for Thailand, since we have little bargaining power.

Strict schedule, but the cost and financing are still unclear?

The Thai government should tell the public exactly what benefits Thailand will receive in turn.
good question.

Without clear costs no cost/benefit analysis can be created.

Hopefully not another non-transparent G2G deal, which will costs the taxpayers the next 30 years a lot of money.

I bet the whole will cost much more, than officially proclaimed at the time of order distribution.

Edited March 17, 2015 by tomacht8

[longway]

It may be true that thailand us getting a poor deal, but this article is so vague in its critisms. Is it really not in thailand's interest to use standard gauge rail tracks? What would be <deleted> disastorous is if it tried to use its current narrow gauge on a high speed train network, and what would be the point of using non standard gauge anyway?

Edited March 17, 2015 by longway

[Gunna]

Should a temporary fill in pm and the army be making such huge long term expensive commitments? Shouldn't such thing wait until there is an election and a government is elected. I thought Prayuth's only goal was reform and reconciliation. He appears to have got derailed on his objective or he plans to stay around forever.

Surely it is just a continuation of Yingluck's fast train plan .

So why do they need to wait for another government

And it would appear cheaper

Remember she illegally past a bill to borrow 2 trillion baht with 3 trillion interest over 50 years

Luckily it was stopped by the Constitutional Court before PTP could get their grubby hands on it and use it to cover up some of the losses on the Rice Scam.

Sure China will make money in lots of ways - inflated construction cost, maintenance and training fees

At least there shouldll be a lower level of corruption as there will be a lot less off the budget finance and closed books.

One would expect that China will be paying fees for their freight when shipped across Thailand to ports or to Singapore. It would actually make sense for China to use Dawei Port in Myanmar as shorter shipping distance to Europe, Mid-east etc plus a shorter train trip.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It may be true that thailand us getting a poor deal, but this article is so vague in its critisms. Is it really not in thailand's interest to use standard gauge rail tracks? What would be <deleted> disastorous is if it tried to use its current narrow gauge on a high speed train network, and what would be the point of using non standard gauge anyway?

The "High speed rail network " will stop on the Malaysian Border if indeed it happens. Malaysia have just built 350km of 1 metre gauge railway with line speed of 160 kph, it is all they need and in my opinion all Thailand needs

[Kondiao]

Thailand is not being railroaded by China, they are being sucked into a whirlpool that will drown Thailand.

A little sugar now and a 4th rate high speed rail line built using pirated technology and substandard

building practices. China will make of like bandits with the cost of maintenance as well as get there

highly desired high speed rail link to Singapore.

Seems to me a re-visit to the "Death Railroad," at Kanchanburi is needed. When I was there it had a great impact on me - besides the famous stretch of railway and bridge in the classic movie that I saw many years ago - by the graveyard. It is stunning to see the final resting places of some 5,000 + allied soldiers who died fighting for Thailand's freedom.

Not to mention the 105,000 or 110,000 Thai and Burmese laborers who were conscripted by the Japanese and worked to death - but who counts a few thousand dead Burmese and Thai peasants? Certainly not the rulers of Thailand and Burma. This was the government that let the Japanese imperialists in, pretending to be their friends. A prime minister who thought Fascism was a cool idea. Now the military dictator seems to want to believe that Communists have become trust-worthy - or that he can handle them. Thousands of Tibetan monks massacred - for what? - and millions of Tibetan people driven down into slavery and prostitution and to make way for the flood of Chinese settlers who took over their land; Hong Kong taken and Taiwan is on the table. These are the people - both Communist and Nationalist forces - who moved into the golden triangle area and took over - recruited local boys into their respective armies, forced the peasants to tend their opium fields instead of their own crops. While the Thai government did nothing to stop it.

And they continue to breed.These Chinese are the people who reason that Mongolia is a part of China because the Mongols conquered China in the 1200's. Sure, and one could point out that the Tibetans conquered China in the 800's. You could say that because the Thai people paid tribute to the Mongol/Chinese empire when Kublai sat on the throne that makes Thailand an intergral part of the greater Asian Chinese Imperialist prosperty empire now.

I disagree with this metaphor of a whirlpool - it is more like a TIDAL WAVE!

The mission is not a mutually-beneficial bilateral trade - it is about the Chinese taking the Thai rice bowl to feed their own teeming masses. A made in China railroad will lead one way - back to China's devouring dragon.

The Thai military government needs to wake up - playtime is over - they are in charge and they have to get responsible what happens in their country. The historical imperatives have not changed.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Jai Dee
reference to dictatorship changed

[billd766]

The man is a liar.

There's a reason he and his brother are 'unusually wealthy'.

So tell us all the "reason" that he and his brother are so unusually wealthy. Could it be that his father sold land and gave the brothers a share each or is that to simple an explanation for you.

I suppose that you think that Thaksin has led a pure and simple life and is an astute businees man to be so wealthy and that he would never tell a lie in his life..

Edited March 17, 2015 by billd766

[Eric Loh]

Should a temporary fill in pm and the army be making such huge long term expensive commitments? Shouldn't such thing wait until there is an election and a government is elected. I thought Prayuth's only goal was reform and reconciliation. He appears to have got derailed on his objective or he plans to stay around forever.

Surely it is just a continuation of Yingluck's fast train plan .

So why do they need to wait for another government

And it would appear cheaper

Remember she illegally past a bill to borrow 2 trillion baht with 3 trillion interest over 50 years

Luckily it was stopped by the Constitutional Court before PTP could get their grubby hands on it and use it to cover up some of the losses on the Rice Scam.

Sure China will make money in lots of ways - inflated construction cost, maintenance and training fees

At least there shouldll be a lower level of corruption as there will be a lot less off the budget finance and closed books.

One would expect that China will be paying fees for their freight when shipped across Thailand to ports or to Singapore. It would actually make sense for China to use Dawei Port in Myanmar as shorter shipping distance to Europe, Mid-east etc plus a shorter train trip.

In your wisdom, do you see any difference between Yingluck's loan and Prayuth's loan. And you positively sure no grubby hands by the junta? Please talk sense.

[Thai at Heart]

I fail to see where the Thais have the right to feel aggrieved about losing out on anything?

[Daniel Ingalls]

What will be the benefits to Thailand? When the rail system is completed, by then, the Chinese will release a full

disclosure on the train. It will be 20,000 Chinese troops headed for Bangkok , at 180 kilometer per hour, taking over towns and villages along the way. and right behind the train will be another 20,000, and then another and another. in 24 hours there will be half a million Chinese in country. At the same time Cambodia, Loas, Vietnam all will be under Martial Law, CHINESE MARTAL LAW!......... and you thought The Thai General was bad !....Have a nice day!

Edited March 17, 2015 by Daniel Ingalls

[hawker9000]

Whatever the motivation, whatever the political goal, whatever the perceived worth to the masses, it's a deal with the devil. China's "string attachment technology" is world-famous and should trump all other considerations.

[Tomtomtom69]

I notice that there is no talk or information regarding the train from Chiang Kong in Chiang Rai Province. Has anyone heard anything regarding this project? The Chinese wanted to do this project also.

Might not be going ahead anymore.

Looks like you'll have to relocate from Chiang Rai to Nong Khai. NK's quite nice though and just across the border from Vientiane, with it's fine French restaurants, Chinese and Vietnamese ones too, much more authentic than anything you'll find in Thailand.

[Tomtomtom69]

What will be the benefits to Thailand? When the rail system is completed, by then, the Chinese will release a full

disclosure on the train. It will be 20,000 Chinese troops headed for Bangkok , at 180 kilometer per hour, taking over towns and villages along the way. and right behind the train will be another 20,000, and then another and another. in 24 hours there will be half a million Chinese in country. At the same time Cambodia, Loas, Vietnam all will be under Martial Law, CHINESE MARTAL LAW!......... and you thought The Thai General was bad !....Have a nice day!

Not Vietnam. The Vietnamese don't want the Chinese and rejected the original Chinese offer of building a Kunming-Haiphong railway through their country.

"No" they said and they are currently not the best of friends, especially given last May's deadly riots targeting Chinese-run factories in the southern part of the country, which in some cases accidentally targeted Singaporean and Taiwanese infrastructure rather than mainland Chinese.

Chinese can already come to Thailand quite easily as visas are handed out quite liberally to all who have a valid passport and a job (or are a student) - they don't need to wait for any train. The richer ones with lots of time on their hands now drive their Chinese registered LHD cars across, meanwhile the Thais are forbidden from driving into China in their Thai registered RHD cars. The vast majority of course, including those short on time and package tours fly in, and will continue to fly in even if the railway is eventually built, because flying will always be quicker than going by train, especially if you're coming from somewhere far away like Shanghai. Even flying from Kunming, which is less than 2 hours flying time from Bangkok and a little over an hour from Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai, is way faster than any train will be.

[KhnomKhnom]

Should a temporary fill in pm and the army be making such huge long term expensive commitments? Shouldn't such thing wait until there is an election and a government is elected. I thought Prayuth's only goal was reform and reconciliation. He appears to have got derailed on his objective or he plans to stay around forever.

Waiting is dependent on there being smarter heads making decisions. Given politics, I doubt that. I trust the General more.

[smutcakes]

Is there any update on the financing of this project?

Regardless they need to get a move on-- on the 9th January Prajin said that the NK to MTP would be completed in two years....

[longway]

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It may be true that thailand us getting a poor deal, but this article is so vague in its critisms. Is it really not in thailand's interest to use standard gauge rail tracks? What would be <deleted> disastorous is if it tried to use its current narrow gauge on a high speed train network, and what would be the point of using non standard gauge anyway?

The "High speed rail network " will stop on the Malaysian Border if indeed it happens. Malaysia have just built 350km of 1 metre gauge railway with line speed of 160 kph, it is all they need and in my opinion all Thailand needs

Are you sure a quick google only shows an hst using standard gauge currently.

[longway]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It may be true that thailand us getting a poor deal, but this article is so vague in its critisms. Is it really not in thailand's interest to use standard gauge rail tracks? What would be <deleted> disastorous is if it tried to use its current narrow gauge on a high speed train network, and what would be the point of using non standard gauge anyway?

The "High speed rail network " will stop on the Malaysian Border if indeed it happens. Malaysia have just built 350km of 1 metre gauge railway with line speed of 160 kph, it is all they need and in my opinion all Thailand needs

Are you sure? a quick google only shows an hst using standard gauge currently.