Denied 60 days extension of Non-0 in Nonthaburi: Part II

[thcmm]

Hi All,

I would like to thank those of you who answered and offered suggestions to the original post regarding this matter.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/816453-denied-60-days-extension-of-non-0-in-nonthaburi-today/

I decided that I would share the conclusion of my visa fiasco as forethought in case it might serve useful in helping others plan around similar disasters, raise awareness amongst us all regarding the increasing anti-farang sentiment many of us are experiencing, or just for shits and giggles.

After being mendaciously informed that I could not extend my Non-O visa for 60 days at the Nonthaburi immigration office on Friday afternoon due to a 'new law';

Given no choice but to attempt a border crossing at Poi-Pet with a one day over-stay, we arranged for somebody to come in to watch our dogs, then hopped in the car late Saturday morning and proceeded to drive east to Sakeow. Traffic from Nonthaburi to Sakeow was not as bad as I expected it might be. We were only faced with a couple of near-death traffic skirmishes ourselves, but in general roadside accidents were notably scant compared to what I normally experience on the usual visa mission to the same border.

We climbed the stairs of the immigration building around 5pm and stepped into the hall. Counters 1 and 2 were manned by IO staff but there was nobody waiting in queue. Counters 3,4,and 5 were closed but 6 was open, serving a line of Cambodians that s-looped back 5 rows deep. I counted approximately 100 people in each row. It became painfully obvious that counter 6 was processing not only all the Cambodian migrant workers who were making their Songkran exodus, but also farang over-stays.

My wife attempted to reason with the duty supervisor, explaining what had happened the prior day in Nonthaburi. In short, the super was not even remotely interested in the incident, and stated that she did not know the visa rules because they change so often and whatever the IO in Nonthaburi ruled, she had to adhere to that decision. At the same time I tried to stamp-out via counter 1, the officer called the supervisor and my wife over. The super looked at my passport and said, "You have to pay 500 baht for 1 day overstay. Get into the line at counter 6." We tried to plead with these people explaining that I intended to cross and come back to Thailand the same evening. Nothing we said interested them.

My wife, who is a polite master degreed economist tried approaching the staff at counter 6 to ask if it was possible to process my 1 day over-stay separately from the hundreds of Cambodians waiting in line for their re-entry visas. The IM staff replied with neanderthalic outbursts ordering me to go to the end of the line.

After waiting for a few hours, I realized that the effort was pointless. The there was no way I was going to make it through the queue prior by 21:30. So we gave up. However, during my wait in the queue that evening I noted that Cambodians were being approached by plane clothed Thai men who were taking their passports and collecting what appeared to be at least several thousand baht from each of them. The collectors would walk away with piles of passports and vanish through the glass doors at the rear of the hall behind the check-out counters. Cambodians who were huddled together in groups were later reunited with their passports by men who re-entered the hall through the same glass doors.

I could not help thinking; Were the Cambodian migrant workers being given VIP treatment by Thai IO's in appreciation for their labor service in Thailand or was something else at play?

We eventually left the IM office in a raged defeat, at least I did. We checked into a room for the night then returned early the next morning only to find the same racket going on. This time around there were even more smiling Thai men collecting passports and money whilst jokingly herding groups of Cambodians around the hall. I was once again told to stand in the massive line of re-entry seekers. There was only one Thai IO working the line, and she would continuously leave her post to go talk to what appeared to be senior officers. The woman would stand around laughing and joking with her colleagues, they would take photos of each other sitting in front of piles of passports, and then stand around for 15 to 20 minutes talking. Eventually she would return to her post and attend to the line of hundreds of waiting people. This went on, and on and on...It was colorfully obvious that the delay was being orchestrated so that more Cambodian passports could be collected by the eager Thai men. Finally after nearly 4 hours of waiting, I was granted my moment in front of the holy queen of counter 6 and given the opportunity to pay my 1,000 baht overstay.

During the entire period that I was forced to wait in line, piles of Cambodian passports stuffed with money were continuously carried in and out of the same glass doors at the rear of the hall. And all the while the Thai IM staff on duty seemed to be having a grand old time, laughing, joking, and taking photos. I even witnessed on a single occasion an IM officer showing compassion to a Cambodian woman with 3 small kids, letting her cut the queue - but only after collecting their papers and money from her husband. Perhaps I have been unlucky, but over the past decade and a half that I have lived in Thailand I can not count the occasion of an IM officer smiling on more than 5 fingers, and those rare moments were either by accident or when receiving gifts.

Would I be naive to assume that the migrant workers were being expedited through the long queues via a random act of the elusive thing called Thainess? Or could it have been a blatant act of Bahtism?

In the end. I ended up with a lousy 30 day tourist visa, loss of 3 days time, cost of fuel, food, hotel, and Cambodian visa fees. All because of a yet to be named overweight IO at Nonthaburi immigration decided that he was a momentary god and decided to ruin my Songkran.

Next Chapter...

Lets see what if anything can be done about it....

Any suggestions?

[ukrules]

Did you get it on video ?

[Maestro]

Thainess. Bahtism. Aren't they synonyms in the context of the situation you described?

[Mario2008]

The only thing you can do is file a complaint with the immigration bureau and experience is that they will look into complaints.

[NancyL]

Interesting write-up. I wonder if the Thai "visa agents" would have processed your overstay for you?

On another note -- I've witnessed I/O in Chiang Mai smile many, many times and they work under some horrific conditions. It's got to be one of the busiest offices in Thailand. Yet, they manage to keep their sense of humor. The biggest smiles are at the end of the day, when they look out at the waiting room and see that it's nearly empty.

[phutoie2]

How do people get in these situations?, if your wife is that well educated why did she not suggest not to go on Friday afternoons. Give yourself plenty of time in case of any "what if" factors

I was talking to a new arrival in our town recently and he told me he just paid 15K Baht for his first retirement extension, when I informed him most folk pay 1900THB he seemed genuinely shocked.

[dbrenn]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

[thcmm]

Did you get it on video ?

On prior passings through that same IM office, I have witnessed travelers, mostly young kids joking about, being verbally accosted in the most horrific way for taking photos of each other in the queue. Then forced to delete their images in front of a scorning IO. Obviously there is something they would like to hide and it certainly is not the high-tech security in the place. Inefficiency more than anything comes to mind.

I did however attempt to capture some video, it is still on my phone but from what I previewed it was not very revealing. I had to hold the phone low and act as if I was looking in another direction. I will transfer the footage to a computer and review it on a larger screen later.

If anything incriminating is clearly recorded, I am not sure what I would do with the footage anyway. I guess the first step is to check if there is a law that makes it illegal to capture images in an IM office. If there is, they will probably arrest me on the spot rather than confront a fellow employee or in this case, the entire staff including senior officers. I am aware that there are other media portals that can be utilized.

[thcmm]

Thainess. Bahtism. Aren't they synonyms in the context of the situation you described?

Good question Maestro. Then I have to ask, what is Thainess? I thought it was a propaganda term being promoted by the powers that be that elude to a notion that Thailand is a country of kind people or something to that effect. If I was wrong, then I stand corrected.

[thcmm]

Interesting write-up. I wonder if the Thai "visa agents" would have processed your overstay for you?

On another note -- I've witnessed I/O in Chiang Mai smile many, many times and they work under some horrific conditions. It's got to be one of the busiest offices in Thailand. Yet, they manage to keep their sense of humor. The biggest smiles are at the end of the day, when they look out at the waiting room and see that it's nearly empty.

The Thai men with tags hanging from their necks were not interested in helping us. We both tried asking different people but they were too involved with the ongoing cash frenzy. Clearly there was more money to be made on the prioritized agenda.

Good to hear about decent, helpful service offered at the Chiang Mai office. Didn't that office go through a massive corruption cleansing in recent years that replaced all the staff or was it another office?

[thcmm]

The only thing you can do is file a complaint with the immigration bureau and experience is that they will look into complaints.

We plan to be there the morning they resume office hours.

[thcmm]

How do people get in these situations?, if your wife is that well educated why did she not suggest not to go on Friday afternoons. Give yourself plenty of time in case of any "what if" factors

I was talking to a new arrival in our town recently and he told me he just paid 15K Baht for his first retirement extension, when I informed him most folk pay 1900THB he seemed genuinely shocked.

Yes you are absolutely correct. And it was suggested by my better half that we go earlier in the week and we did - twice! The problem was that I was very short on time last week - my fault. Each time we visited the office, the place was jammed with lines backed up to the front door. It was just barely possible to squeeze inside the place. It seemed pointless to waste the day on the gamble that they would actually serve me, which seemed very unlikely. I have had two prior errands processed at the Nonthaburi office. Each time I made every attempt to be there early as to be first in line. That never worked out, but I was never more than the fourth in queue. On both prior visits it took them over 3 hours to process simple tasks that normally take far less time at other offices. I think one was a 90 day report, which I clearly remember that they did not want to process but I forget exactly what the other was. Not that any of this really matters. Its just water in the toilet.

Sadly though, it seems as if many of us are now conditioned to lay down and accept non-conforming behavior of government officers as being ok - normal. The argument that we are guests here in Thailand and should be thankful to our kind hosts for allowing us to stay holds some validity. However, host countries establish laws and regulations to uphold standards and regularity. Those policies should be adhered to by all governing branches of said country regardless - special circumstances aside. Sure, plenty of other countries are guilty of neglecting policy too, yet the gross negligence that is allowed and accepted here is nothing more than a contamination of the system. What is it that is so special about Thai officers that makes their widespread, abusive behavior acceptable?

The mindset we are being forced to swallow about government regulations is sickening. It is like thinking, well its Thursday today and I have a doctors appointment next Tuesday at 10AM, but because I live in Thailand I better show up on both Friday and Monday mornings just to be sure. Is that really ok?

Thanks phutoie2, your suggestion to go early and avoid possible trouble is absolutely correct and it is the lesson to be learned here. Unfortunately that did not work out for me this time. Now I have 30 days to work it out, perhaps I'll go a week earlier just to make sure.

Cheers...

[thcmm]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

Dear dbrenn,

You must have misunderstood my posting. I'd have to reread what I previously wrote but I do not recall using the word 'hate'. In fact, if anything pity, padded walls and straight jackets come to mind when I reflect on the experience.

A previous poster suggested to confront the IM supervisor on duty with an educated Thai who could communicate and recite the regulations. By establishing the fact that my wife is educated was meant to cover that suggestion. Nothing more.

I had no expectation to cut the queue because I think I am special, or otherwise. No matter how one chooses to view the circumstances, the fact was that the holiday period created an abnormal surge of re-entry permit applicants. Combining the two tasks, over-stay and re-entry to the same counter during the holiday period was a ludicrously poor judgement call.

I do not want to get into a pissing match with you or anybody else but if you can not visualize the stark difference between my case and that of the Cambodians seeking re-entry then well, so be it.

For the record, if I thought I was more deserving I would have offered to buy a Cambodians position in the front of the queue. That is not my style so I remained in line. During the long wait, I did witness Russians, Arabs, and others who did rudely cut the queue. Oh well...I figured, I am not in an emergency situation nor am I that special. Cambodians are people too, so I'll stand in my place and nurture my respect for the officials I am supposed to be thankful to for granting me the opportunity to risk my life, waste my time and compensate them for it.

Cheers...

[PHP87]

"My wife, who is a polite master degreed economist tried approaching the staff at counter 6 to ask if it was possible to process my 1 day over-stay separately from the hundreds of Cambodians waiting in line for their re-entry visas. The IM staff replied with neanderthalic outbursts ordering me to go to the end of the line. "

Gee, I wonder why...

[schweizer]

To be honest you might be right about the dubious legality of filming at an immigration checkpoint, in the US, UK and Switzerland there are signs everywhere stating that you are not allowed even to use your cellphone or take pictures in these areas,

[thcmm]

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"My wife, who is a polite master degreed economist tried approaching the staff at counter 6 to ask if it was possible to process my 1 day over-stay separately from the hundreds of Cambodians waiting in line for their re-entry visas. The IM staff replied with neanderthalic outbursts ordering me to go to the end of the line. "

Gee, I wonder why...

Yes, so do I considering that the IO's were made aware of the situation; clearly the over-stay was created by the fact that the Nonthaburi immigration office refused to follow policy. The statement was not an attempt to glorify my wife or her level of education. Understanding that Thai social etiquette is largely based on perception means that it is wise to play within those boundaries whenever possible. To a great degree, respect is established via appearance, speech, manner, money, etc...thus it was necessary to provide a bit of background in the post about the person who communicated with the IM officers. If I left out factual details then readers might speculate that there were other reasons for the foul treatment. Such as, if she had approached immigration officials dressed for a nights performance on a Nana stage and speaking rural slang, then one would have expected to be treated like a bowel movement gone wrong.

[thcmm]

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To be honest you might be right about the dubious legality of filming at an immigration checkpoint, in the US, UK and Switzerland there are signs everywhere stating that you are not allowed even to use your cellphone or take pictures in these areas,

Yes you are correct. There are in fact no camera signs posted around the immigration hall. That rule however, does not seem to apply to Thai immigration officers who were have a grand old time taking pictures of themselves.

[Strangebrew]

Lol Look What I do is you can't fight it but you use it I take a bus trip passport taken on bus any overstay fees handed to person taking passport we are grouped together cross over head to casino sit down get cool drink and something to eat in 30 minutes here comes guy with stamped passports get leave casino head back to Thailand hop bus head home.

[thcmm]

Lol Look What I do is you can't fight it but you use it I take a bus trip passport taken on bus any overstay fees handed to person taking passport we are grouped together cross over head to casino sit down get cool drink and something to eat in 30 minutes here comes guy with stamped passports get leave casino head back to Thailand hop bus head home.

Thanks Strangebrew,

Your correct, fighting is an entertaining notion but in reality an exercise in futility. I realize that there is little that can or will be done about the shafting I went through. It never hurts to put it out for discussion though, perhaps some interesting ideas come up that could help others.

Are you referring to a visa-run company that drives groups to the border from within Thailand? Those are a great option if you can stomach a trip in one of those potential coffins on wheels traveling at excessive rates of speed. I'll spare you the rant, but will say that I took my last mini-van trip back in 2004. Never again!

Each time I arrive at that border, I am approached by Cambodian guys offering to take care of everything for me but the prices they quote are usually in excess of 1,000baht of the actual fees. I find it impressively easy to just walk through no-mans land, buy my visa at the Cambodian station on the opposite side of the street, then pay between 100-300 for the in/out stamping service via a Cambodian border officer. The closer you get to the stamp-in counters, the cheaper the cost - 100baht being at the counter itself. I have never actually crossed through the gates.

Funny though, on Friday night the Cambodian boys were trying to help me out/cash in on my situation. They were frantically making phone calls to somebody on the inside trying to get me processed for 5k (not that I ever agreed on that price - but that is what they were talking about) - Their contacts on the inside were not interested, the cash frenzy was in full swing in the main hall and they could not be bothered. It is hard to know how much money was made that evening and over the following days.

Cheers...

[paz]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

How strange, I did not read it this way. But I read misplaced judgeful attitude and disguised self-righteousness in your posting.

Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly.

[nzexpat]

Paz says

"Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly."

What a very misplaced and "judgmental" comment !

[dbrenn]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

How strange, I did not read it this way. But I read misplaced judgeful attitude and disguised self-righteousness in your posting.

Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly.

Whingeing about having to queue behind a bunch of Cambodians to pay a fine for breaking the law in the first place? You've got things back to front.

Being in the wrong to start with doesn't put the OP in a position to complain as far as immigration is concerned, as is evidential from the totally indifferent way that they treated him. It reminds me of the time I got upset when trying to pay a speeding fine and was made to wait 2 hours in the heat while they had lunch. Rightly or wrongly, they see making you wait as part of the punishment and bad attitude just makes the wait longer.

Running things poorly is a charming Thai quirk and the efficency of the Western world awaits for those who prefer it.

Complaining may make the OP feel better but will change things nary a jot. Sucking it up and smiling may yield better results and more compassion from immo - that or buying a TE card where queue jumping is an integral part of the service.

Edited April 13, 2015 by dbrenn

[Paul888]

I really don't see how the nationality of people in front of you in a queue is of any consequence.

They are in front of you in the queue because they arrived before you.

[paz]

I really don't see how the nationality of people in front of you in a queue is of any consequence.

They are in front of you in the queue because they arrived before you.

Nowhere the OP said or implied that Nationalities had faults or privileges. If he did, show us where.

He simply stated the full facts of his experience. Strange that some want to see tort where there is not.

[Julie H]

I was denied same extension at Nonthaburi 3 days before OP. I should have posted to my experience maybe could have saved OP some time. Looking forward to reading part 3

[Samuel25241]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

How strange, I did not read it this way. But I read misplaced judgeful attitude and disguised self-righteousness in your posting.

Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly.

Whingeing about having to queue behind a bunch of Cambodians to pay a fine for breaking the law in the first place? You've got things back to front.

Being in the wrong to start with doesn't put the OP in a position to complain as far as immigration is concerned, as is evidential from the totally indifferent way that they treated him. It reminds me of the time I got upset when trying to pay a speeding fine and was made to wait 2 hours in the heat while they had lunch. Rightly or wrongly, they see making you wait as part of the punishment and bad attitude just makes the wait longer.

Running things poorly is a charming Thai quirk and the efficency of the Western world awaits for those who prefer it.

Complaining may make the OP feel better but will change things nary a jot. Sucking it up and smiling may yield better results and more compassion from immo - that or buying a TE card where queue jumping is an integral part of the service.

As quoted below, the same treatment was given to someone just three days earlier. If that is the case, how is OP being treated indifferently at this immigration?

Thus making your statement about right/wrongs and punishments invalid, considering he was by law allowed the extension.

Further more, how do we know OP had a bad attitude inside immigration? What If he was totally polite?

[nzexpat]

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Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

How strange, I did not read it this way. But I read misplaced judgeful attitude and disguised self-righteousness in your posting.

Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly.

Whingeing about having to queue behind a bunch of Cambodians to pay a fine for breaking the law in the first place? You've got things back to front.

Being in the wrong to start with doesn't put the OP in a position to complain as far as immigration is concerned, as is evidential from the totally indifferent way that they treated him. It reminds me of the time I got upset when trying to pay a speeding fine and was made to wait 2 hours in the heat while they had lunch. Rightly or wrongly, they see making you wait as part of the punishment and bad attitude just makes the wait longer.

Running things poorly is a charming Thai quirk and the efficency of the Western world awaits for those who prefer it.

Complaining may make the OP feel better but will change things nary a jot. Sucking it up and smiling may yield better results and more compassion from immo - that or buying a TE card where queue jumping is an integral part of the service.

As quoted below, the same treatment was given to someone just three days earlier. If that is the case, how is OP being treated indifferently at this immigration?

Thus making your statement about right/wrongs and punishments invalid, considering he was by law allowed the extension.

Further more, how do we know OP had a bad attitude inside immigration? What If he was totally polite?

One only rarely can see or hear both sides of these stories.

The complainers, of course, tell their version of the "truth" !

From a personal viewpoint, having lived here for many years, I have never had a problem with Immigration Officers but that is just my story !

Edited April 14, 2015 by nzexpat

[thcmm]

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Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

How strange, I did not read it this way. But I read misplaced judgeful attitude and disguised self-righteousness in your posting.

Cambodians were not paying the fine, they were doing something else and the two things should be separated as in any other border posts. It is clear that the entire operations was run poorly.

Whingeing about having to queue behind a bunch of Cambodians to pay a fine for breaking the law in the first place? You've got things back to front.

Being in the wrong to start with doesn't put the OP in a position to complain as far as immigration is concerned, as is evidential from the totally indifferent way that they treated him. It reminds me of the time I got upset when trying to pay a speeding fine and was made to wait 2 hours in the heat while they had lunch. Rightly or wrongly, they see making you wait as part of the punishment and bad attitude just makes the wait longer.

Running things poorly is a charming Thai quirk and the efficency of the Western world awaits for those who prefer it.

Complaining may make the OP feel better but will change things nary a jot. Sucking it up and smiling may yield better results and more compassion from immo - that or buying a TE card where queue jumping is an integral part of the service.

-----

Again, I guess you have either not read the original post or not comprehend what was written. I was put into an over-stay situation because I was denied a 60 day extension that Thai immigration regulations entitles Non-O visa holders to. Had the extension been granted to me on the 10th when I went to immigration at Nonthaburi then I would not have been on an over-stay or forced to drive to the Cambodian border.

Lets re-evaluate the situation mate. The Thai IM officers at Nonthaburi actually said that they would only grant a 7 day extension but strongly insisted that I simply pay the 500 baht overstay at the border and get 30 days. They actually broke the "law" in the first place then advised me to commit further violations.

There is no point in discussing this further. You obviously seem hell-bent on condemnation.

[thcmm]

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I was denied same extension at Nonthaburi 3 days before OP. I should have posted to my experience maybe could have saved OP some time. Looking forward to reading part 3

Hi Julie,

I wish you had!

In fact we should all contribute to a dedicated post about the Nonthaburi office - if there is not already one on this forum?

I recently learned that a 71 year old Dutch friend was also denied an extension of his Non-O at the same office. The resulting complications forced him to alter the dates of his return flight to Holland. He subsequently suffered a major heart-attack in Thailand and nearly died because it took to long to get him to a hospital.

Certain incompetent people are causing serious problems in peoples lives, both Thai and farang. In the real world Nonthaburi IM would be brought up on charges....

Thanks for your feedback!

[Suradit69]

Oh dear. Another one trying to swim against the tide. In this case expecting to jump the queue to pay his fine, because he is not Cambodian and he has a wife with a masters degree.

If you hate them, they'll hate you back.

Yes, it's sort of amazing how some things come back to bite you where you sit.

the super was not even remotely interested in the incident,

I can empathize, especially considering your tendency to go on and on.