British tourist kills police in crash

[John Kane]

I agree with eeze. I am often put off by what I read here. So many people so often jump to prejudicial assumptions. Agains, who said the fancy car was rented? Who said the driver was drunk? Almost all police I see are on 250cc Thai made motorcycles, Sorry but I forget the brand. This cop was on a Yamaha 300cc, a mighty nice bike I think. What assumptions should we jump to about that. It said the policeman made a sudden U turn. That is information, not an assumption. Sure the farang was speeding but people do that at 2 am. If the policeman behaved without showing proper care - like looking both ways - maybe this really was truly an accident.

Some moderators ought to speak up about all this crazy talk by self proclaimed old timers here who have nothing better to do but be negative al the time. That gets very boring quickly.

[Commerce]

just hit a dog with your cat at 90 km/h , and you ll see the face of car . you speak about something that you don't know . it's crazy .... are you all experts of what ??? and even if he was driving to quick , is that a reason to be guilty of murder ? the title say : - a brit killed a motorbike policeman driver .... KILLED ???? beter say : a motorbike policeman driver die after accident with a car . a why say that the driver is brit ??? how many expats or tourist die after accident with thai-drivers ( drunked , who takes jaba , who fall asleep , who drive crazy ) ? anyway , the brit will be guilty just cause he's farang so everybody will be happy , even you the expats . you disgusting me .

I see that you are disappointed with many of the comments made on here, so I should tell you firstly, that I've had 30 years service in law enforcement, with the last 20 as a Crash Investigator. I hope that's sufficient for me to comment on a few aspects that you have brought up? During this time I completed numerous courses required to become a certified Crash Investigator and have investigated numerous fatal motor vehicle crashes, staged accidents and serious (catastrophic) incidents.

Firstly, there are so many factors involved in investigating such matters, that I would be here all day typing. So I'll try to keep it short. One aspect that I agree with you on and conclude from the posts that many are relying on newspaper articles as a source for their comments and subsequent conclusions. Not a very wise thing to do.

You then mention speed and murder, all in the one sentence. Of course this does not relate to murder; murder in an intentional act of killing a person and although he may have been speeding, it would be most unlikely that this was his intention. There is however, a charge of manslaughter, which, once all the facts are known, could well be brought against the driver of the car. Whatever the outcome, I certainly would not like to be in his shoes.

When viewing the damage, as depicted by the photograph, one can safely say the car was being driven at a high speed, (unknown) and that impact occurred, initially on the left (nearside) of the vehicle and then worsens as it progresses backwards and rises upward toward the offside of the car. This is a good indication that impact occurred at speed, (unknown) when the cyclist was at an angle to the vehicle.

This could cause the front of the cycle to be propelled away whilst the rest of the bike continued backwards and upwards into the vehicle, with the body possibly impacting and shattering the windscreen. It also gives the impression that there was little, if any, braking at the time of initial impact. However, if there were there skid marks, then these, when combined with a number of other factors, would provide evidence as to the vehicle's speed at the time of impact.

The press release contains a version provided by the driver of the car, however, this can be neither accepted or rejected until all the evidence has been gathered which would then allow investigators to reach a conclusion, one way or another. At this time it sure beats me how anyone can conclude who is at fault or what their fate should be. Not only does it appear many are super sleuths but also want to be the judge, jury and executioner

Let's not forget the need for medicals, scene investigation, witnesses, reconstruction if needed and the numerous other factors that need to be carried out before any finding can be reached. In so far as your not liking the use of the word "Killed", nothing wrong with that as it relates to the death of a person, animal or other living thing. As for the rest, have no idea what you're on about so I'll leave it it at that.

I'm taking you up on this one - Mr. Expert. Why? I just recently retired as a Senior Vehicle Manager/Launch Manager. I've worked for Jag, Ford, Benz, BM, you name it... and you're talking out of your backside.

Crash and impact is a particular expertise of mine... so meet your maker on this one!

That car, as shown (who knows if it is the real car after the event) was not impacted by a bike at high speed, nor did it impact one do create so much unilateral damage to the car.

Watch a Benz against a fixed barrier ( a fixed block of concrete... unable to move) and you see the impact results against the car) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mxj2aj_X4s

That crash is at 35K/ph into a fixed wall barrier - it won't move. The car has to take the impact and bounce off it. That is akin to nothing like a car bullet at 90K/ph hitting a moving object - the object will fly, despite there being an equal and opposite force - there is no equal force in mass!

A car at 90K/ph would throw the bike and suffer little damage - maybe a slightly impacted bonnet, a broken light on one side, impacted bonnet with large damage, but even if it dragged the bike under the car would in no way sustain too much damage as displayed (again, I relate back to and wonder if the picture is true - but seeing as that's what you're going on.. let's play with that).

The passenger of the bike would, for sure, hit the screen, but there is no way a non-stationary moving object would cause that much damage to the front end. Torsion and impact bars are not even crumpled nor twisted at all - A-pillars are intact, as usually expected, but there is too much damage to both sides of the front-end to warrant a single impact, unless with a stationary and fixed object hit more than one time, and that does not happen with impacting either a bike or a pedestrian.

I COULD go on... but await your wise reply.

[Adeeos]

The article states the air bags deployed,,, with modern cars, (esp a MB I'd guess),,,, it's as simple as plugging it into a dealers service computer, and the CAR'S computer, will tell you exactly the speed at impact, the angle of the impact,, were the brakes being applied, how strongly, etc, etc,,, BUT,,, will anyone investigating this bother to see that through?...

Nonsense, car's computers are not "black boxes", their purpose is to control the operation of the vehicle not provide accident related information.

Another ignorant.. Yes they are like black boxes - Especially in the new Mercedes.

No they are not. If they were able to provide that kind of information there would never be any doubt about the circumstances of any accident and that isn't the case.

Hahaha,,,,, Of course,, you've got extensive background in current automotive tech,, to validate this claim?,,,, (other than the local Chang swillers),,,, Google is your friend,,,, That's of course if you understand how to USE Google,,,, JUST when you think you've seen/heard from ALL the resident, "experts",,, several others chime in,,,,, jeeez

[tomyumchai]

Crazy Brit. You don't visit a foreign country, rent a car, and drive with reckless abandon. You don't know the roads and you are a guest.

I hope they lock up Mr. Benjamin in a Thai prison cell for a few years and not just let him go back to the island after paying off the officer's family.

My condolences to Police Lance Corporal Wiroon's family and friends. Terrible that this happens at the end of the Songkran holiday.

heres the first one talking out his exhaust port, jeeze this forum is full of idiots. lets all visit a foreign country and have someone walk in front of us waving a red flag then, just in case a local moron decides to do a stupid manouver in front of us cos of course, thais NEVER misjudge an approaching vehicles speed, thats why theres NEVER any accidents at U turns.

that must be why they flash their lights at U turns......its morse code to indicate the speed of the moving vehicle yeah?

btw. i rented a focus 3 weeks ago and drove from ban chang to chiang rai in 12 hours, in the dark and pouring rain........OOOOHHHHH lock me up!

....dick.

[MrB2015]

Probably a friend of jamesjohn.

Luckily due to the chest injuries... he could not attempt his running away from a 'Thai mob'.

[kurce]

OK The guy was speeding BUT it was the Policeman who cut in front of him!

So, Policemans fault.

That's how the law works in oz or at least it did for me. I was caught behind traffic through an intersection. Speeding driver hit me on the left. I was at fault for blocking the intersection.

My argument, if he wasn't speeding he wouldn't of hit me, there argument if you weren't blocking traffic you wouldn't of been hit.

I guess my was the greater infringement.

Don't know how the rule is applied here though,

Cheers.

[Commerce]

Nonsense, car's computers are not "black boxes", their purpose is to control the operation of the vehicle not provide accident related information.

Another ignorant.. Yes they are like black boxes - Especially in the new Mercedes.

No they are not. If they were able to provide that kind of information there would never be any doubt about the circumstances of any accident and that isn't the case.

Hahaha,,,,, Of course,, you've got extensive background in current automotive tech,, to validate this claim?,,,, (other than the local Chang swillers),,,, Google is your friend,,,, That's of course if you understand how to USE Google,,,, JUST when you think you've seen/heard from ALL the resident, "experts",,, several others chime in,,,,, jeeez

Well I have. There is nothing like a black-box in a car, any car, as yet in production. FAIL.

[Commerce]

OK The guy was speeding BUT it was the Policeman who cut in front of him!

So, Policemans fault.

That's how the law works in oz or at least it did for me. I was caught behind traffic through an intersection. Speeding driver hit me on the left. I was at fault for blocking the intersection.

My argument, if he wasn't speeding he wouldn't of hit me, there argument if you weren't blocking traffic you wouldn't of been hit.

I guess my was the greater infringement.

Don't know how the rule is applied here though,

Cheers.

The rule here applied?

It's called how much have you got?

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Second accident involving a foreigner where the victim is found 200 meters away. At least he admitted to speeding.

[Adeeos]

Sviss Geez,,,

What decade of Google are you using?.... Are you THAT dense?.... "There is nothing like a black-box in a car, any car, as yet in production." But you ARE correct,,,, "FAIL!",,,,,, just not me,,,,

1, 2011, http://www.wired.com/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

2, 2013, http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/06/black-boxes-cars-edr/1566098/

3, 2014, http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/komando/2014/12/26/keep-your-car-black-box-private/20609035/

There,,, i've provided 3,, dating back over at least 4 years,,,, Care to show me ONE, concerning a MODERN car like this Mercedes, that counters these I've provided?,,,,,, WHY is it some people, dig a small hole,, and when it's pointed out they are digging themselves into a hole,, claim they're NOT, and Seem to ask, "Mate?,, got a larger shovel?"...

Edited April 16, 2015 by Adeeos

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Where is a Thai wife when you need one?

[Travelman868]

Crazy Brit. You don't visit a foreign country, rent a car, and drive with reckless abandon. You don't know the roads and you are a guest.

I hope they lock up Mr. Benjamin in a Thai prison cell for a few years and not just let him go back to the island after paying off the officer's family.

My condolences to Police Lance Corporal Wiroon's family and friends. Terrible that this happens at the end of the Songkran holiday.

Who said the car was rented?

What makes him a tourist? Maybe just his visa?

The police officer's motorbike had no license plate at all

Yet, you condemn the guy to a prison sentence. What if it's found out that the car driver had not a trace of alcohol or other substance and that it was an accident at 2:40am.

Then again, i'm sure you'll find some other answers.

The fact of the matter is :- There is a 90kph maximum speed limit on regular duel carriageways and he was travelling way over this. The damage suggests he was going VERY fast therefore it was his fault.

Did it make a difference because the police bike had no number plate ?? of course not.

Should he go to prison, yes he caused a death by dangerous driving.

HOWEVER I am not suggesting that speed is the only factor.

[Commerce]

Sviss Geez,,,

What decade of Google are you using?.... Are you THAT dense?.... "There is nothing like a black-box in a car, any car, as yet in production." But you ARE correct,,,, "FAIL!",,,,,, just not me,,,,

1, 2011, http://www.wired.com/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

2, 2013, http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/06/black-boxes-cars-edr/1566098/

3, 2014, http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/komando/2014/12/26/keep-your-car-black-box-private/20609035/

There,,, i've provided 3,, dating back over at least 4 years,,,, Care to show me ONE, concerning a MODERN car like this Mercedes, that counters these I've provided?,,,,,, WHY is it some people, dig a small hole,, and when it's pointed out they are digging themselves into a hole,, claim they're NOT, and Seem to ask, "Mate?,, got a larger shovel?"...

They are purely ECUs. They are not programmed to record every second or every movement. They simply update the electronics during a journey. We're not at Star Trek level yet. They retune the engine, they monitor electrics primarily, ensure warning lights are on if there is an electronic error - but they do not record who was sitting where, if the pretensioner fired, if the airbags fired on impact. Wake up..... if you believe that malarky then don't feel so fancy free next time at the wheel.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Commerce

[umbanda]

Even in the case the policeman was drunk or riding badly....the car driver is a foreigner on a very expensive car. Probably he will not get in jail, but his time in Thailand will be the most expensive and trouble vacation he had in his life.

[Adeeos]

Sviss Geez,,,

What decade of Google are you using?.... Are you THAT dense?.... "There is nothing like a black-box in a car, any car, as yet in production." But you ARE correct,,,, "FAIL!",,,,,, just not me,,,,

1, 2011, http://www.wired.com/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

2, 2013, http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/06/black-boxes-cars-edr/1566098/

3, 2014, http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/komando/2014/12/26/keep-your-car-black-box-private/20609035/

There,,, i've provided 3,, dating back over at least 4 years,,,, Care to show me ONE, concerning a MODERN car like this Mercedes, that counters these I've provided?,,,,,, WHY is it some people, dig a small hole,, and when it's pointed out they are digging themselves into a hole,, claim they're NOT, and Seem to ask, "Mate?,, got a larger shovel?"...

They are purely ECUs. They are not programmed to record every second or every movement. They simply update the electronics during a journey. We're not at Star Trek level yet. They retune the engine, they monitor electrics primarily, ensure warning lights are on if there is an electronic error - but they do not record who was sitting where, if the pretensioner fired, if the airbags fired on impact. Wake up..... if you believe that malarky then don't feel so fancy free next time at the wheel.

So you're going to sit there,, and argue with the MANY available articles online, claiming otherwise???,.,,,, No, they DO record everything,,, they just don't STORE it ALL,,, if there's NO problem,, but if there IS a problem?,,, Believe me,, it's STORED,, it's already been pointed out, backed up with PUBLISHED FACTS,, by several other posters on here that they DO, DO these things,,, yet in your infinet wisdom,,, Myself, the other posters,, and well as MANY Google articles are completely wrong,, correct?,,,,

Yes,,, you should contact "On-Star" in the US,,, tell them that such, "Star Trek" things aren't possible,,, They KNOW when you've been in an accident,, KNOW which and how many air bags have been deployed,, and THEN attempt to contact you,, if you don't answer?,,, they'll AUTOMATICALLY contact EMT's, Police, fire, etc, etc,,, Did you know that, If your car is stolen, you can call "On Star",,, they can first locate it via GPS,,, determine if it's in an area, "safe to disable",,, and shut the thing down?,,,,,, and alert the police as to WHERE it is?,,,, Is THAT, "Star Trek" enough for you?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Adeeos

[Stray]

I think it is silly to assign blame at this time in the proceedings. We have no idea who's at fault and it could be that they were both in the wrong. The Brit for speeding and the Thai officer for making an ill-advised U-turn in front of an on coming car.

I agree entirely. Try always to drive defensively and "speeding" is not defensive driving. How would I "guess" that the car driver was speeding? By the amount of damage to the car.

But I do wonder why the motorbike had no licence plate? Is it legal for Police to ride bikes like that? Maybe we will never know (or be told)

Regardless of blame, it is a road fatality nevertheless and my condolences to the Policeman's family and friends.

It has already been posted several times on this thread; new vehicles are not sold with a registration plate.

Ermm no that's not right. New vehicles are sold with a red plate. The red plate belongs to the dealer and they have to record details of the vehicle they are fitted to at any given time. It is not legal in Thailand to use a vehicle without a registration plate. Policeman or not.

I'm not arguing with you, billphillips, as I do not know the laws pertaining to the issuing of temporary plates.

However, as I stated in Post #172, I have purchased two new motorcycles from a dealer, over the past 3 years, and neither was fitted with a registration plate. Red or otherwise. When I asked about this I was told the plate was not required and to wait until the full registration plate arrived.

I rode both of these bikes from Isaan to Bangkok, several times, without the plates. When I was stopped at checkpoints, I was only asked for licence, passport and papers for the bike - I produced the bill of sale (which included the engine and frame numbers) as proof that the vehicle had been legally purchased.

Again, I don't know the laws pertaining to the attachment of temporary plates to bikes and, judging by the number of new vehicles I see without plates, I can only assume that the law is either not clear-cut or is not high on anyone's agenda.

[Stray]

STRAY.

No, never missed your like but when I read your post I was of two minds, so please accept my apology for the misunderstanding.

Si Thea

No worries, mate. I'll buy you a beer when we catch up.

Appreciate your response.

[Shiver]

It was princess Diana driving the merc. If you want to challenge me on that 'fact' then I demand a process of discovery.

[humqdpf]

Crazy Brit. You don't visit a foreign country, rent a car, and drive with reckless abandon. You don't know the roads and you are a guest.

I hope they lock up Mr. Benjamin in a Thai prison cell for a few years and not just let him go back to the island after paying off the officer's family.

My condolences to Police Lance Corporal Wiroon's family and friends. Terrible that this happens at the end of the Songkran holiday.

From the very bare facts that we have been given, I don't see the reason for pronouncing sentence just yet. According to the driver, the police officer u-turned in front of him leaving him with no time to stop the vehicle in time. Yes, he may have been driving above the speed limit but, from the way it looks, the police officer should not have u-turned in front of the Benz. It could have been the case that even had the Benz driver been driving at the speed limit, the officer would still have been killed if his move was very sudden and he did not bother to look. Or not. We certainly do not have sufficient evidence for throwing away the key given what has been written in the forum thread so far.

[Varangkul]

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I hope tha they lock this guy up and just throw the keys away.

I love listening to you, saint and super driver, that never disobey the rules in Thailand.

Try to read the article properly, the guy was cut off by the motorbike when the policeman made a u-turn at the spot suddenly, cutting into his way and making it impossible for him to stop his car in time.

Ask yourself, what would you have done in a situation like this?

So stop, trying to be clever and think before you post nonsense.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

Luxfare - - that's like saying "The accident would never had happened if the Benz had not been there !!"

[flyingdoc]

Why do so many people on T.V. here jump to conclusions without the slightest evidence? R.I.P.

[Sealbash]

As far as I can see from the report the British driver was not at fault.

No evidence he was speeding or drunk.

Thai making a u-turn on an unregistered, uninsured, untaxed m/c.

Thai happens to be an off duty policeman ...... so what.

Was the Thai drunk? No evidence presented, but he was breaking the law.

Unregistered un taxed uninsured.........all sadly irrelevant here, wonder if he had a helmet on too?

All may be irrelevant here but if you've driven on the roads at night in Thailand, one must ask "did the motorcycle it have tail lights? A large percentage of my close encounters out on HWY 4 at night are with motorcycles/scooters without rear lights.

And did the car have lights? This question applies to both vehicles.

[Cardiff1963]

How many times have all of us who drive here had idiots at U turns pull directly into the fast lane without looking?

It's a daily occurrence and luckily I've always managed to avoid them unlike the unfortunate guy here. At U turns it is usually the person who is turning's fault.

And never the fault of the person who is speeding?

[The manic]

From what I understand the motorcyclist was at fault.

[Truth4All]

RIP. Speeding car, wild tourist, quick U turn.... Alcohol? Recipe for disaster, and it happened.

You are too old to be replying-- The COP made the U-Turn, not the Brit!!! Was the Cop drinking?? Probably not.

Was the Cop a Bad driver? I've seen a few, but we don't know. The Brit had a Benz and probably plenty of money. Was he "speeding"?? Of course-- to throw a motorcycle 200 Meters, you had to have been speeding.

I say-- So What? I was speeding-- been doing it all my life, and safely, not reckless. Sounds to me that, like most Thai motorcycle drivers, the Cop was in a hurry and didn't even look before doing the U-Turn.

No one could have avoided that tragic situation-- except the Cop.

If you think I've been too hard on you for mis-reading the account-- I apologize.

[nitpicker]

Note to current leader and something that is long overdue (too late here)..., establish a highway patrol. Enforce the laws of the roads and do it with prejudice. It will take years for it to be effective but you have to start.

OK but what are the laws? I have a Thai driving licence, passed the test but was never shown any laws

[Truth4All]

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I hope tha they lock this guy up and just throw the keys away.

I love listening to you, saint and super driver, that never disobey the rules in Thailand.

Try to read the article properly, the guy was cut off by the motorbike when the policeman made a u-turn at the spot suddenly, cutting into his way and making it impossible for him to stop his car in time.

Ask yourself, what would you have done in a situation like this?

So stop, trying to be clever and think before you post nonsense.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

Luxfare - - that's like saying "The accident would never had happened if the Benz had not been there !!"

Doubt if a Benz would look like that at 70-80km!! I've driven the road where it happened, many times. Depends on the traffic.

If no traffic, 120-130 is acceptable. The benz was probably doing 140-160!! But, I add, probably safely.

I still think, until more evidence is shown, that the Cop cut right in front of him and he was screwed-- No Way to avoid!

Sorry, but I vote that the Cop was careless.

[Luxfare]

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I hope tha they lock this guy up and just throw the keys away.

I love listening to you, saint and super driver, that never disobey the rules in Thailand.

Try to read the article properly, the guy was cut off by the motorbike when the policeman made a u-turn at the spot suddenly, cutting into his way and making it impossible for him to stop his car in time.

Ask yourself, what would you have done in a situation like this?

So stop, trying to be clever and think before you post nonsense.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

If you look at the car properly you will see that the front has not disintegrated. The bonnet has crumpled as it is designed to do, the front plastic bumper has broken and dislodged as it is designed to do and the windscreen has been damaged where the bike/rider has hit it as usually happens in this kind of accident.

The bike has a considerable mass and if launched into the air in a collision of this type it will continue to slide along the road until it loses all it's inertia. It does not hit the road and stop dead.

Thanks for your patronizing reply....I used to be in the Police and studied plenty of road accidents and that car has been travelling at extreme speeds don't tell me otherwise.

[Truth4All]

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Crazy Brit. You don't visit a foreign country, rent a car, and drive with reckless abandon. You don't know the roads and you are a guest.

I hope they lock up Mr. Benjamin in a Thai prison cell for a few years and not just let him go back to the island after paying off the officer's family.

My condolences to Police Lance Corporal Wiroon's family and friends. Terrible that this happens at the end of the Songkran holiday.

Who said the car was rented?

What makes him a tourist? Maybe just his visa?

The police officer's motorbike had no license plate at all

Yet, you condemn the guy to a prison sentence. What if it's found out that the car driver had not a trace of alcohol or other substance and that it was an accident at 2:40am.

Then again, i'm sure you'll find some other answers.

We can draw a lot of assumptions from the time etc, but I see no mention of booze/brethalyzers in the report.

There will be plenty of TV Clouseaus waiting to solve this one!

I'm not a qualified accident investigator, I'm a driver more than most. The high speed lane is on the right hand lane where the accident happened. Notice that the Benz is demolished on the right hand side of the car-- also note the direction of the crash--

the hood(or Bonnet, if from UK) is aiming away from the direction of the impact. Appears that the Cop's motorcycle was actually moving into the car at the moment of impact. Call me wrong, or let's hear another opinion.

[lensta]

I think it is silly to assign blame at this time in the proceedings. We have no idea who's at fault and it could be that they were both in the wrong. The Brit for speeding and the Thai officer for making an ill-advised U-turn in front of an on coming car.

I agree entirely. Try always to drive defensively and "speeding" is not defensive driving. How would I "guess" that the car driver was speeding? By the amount of damage to the car.

But I do wonder why the motorbike had no licence plate? Is it legal for Police to ride bikes like that? Maybe we will never know (or be told)

Regardless of blame, it is a road fatality nevertheless and my condolences to the Policeman's family and friends.

It has already been posted several times on this thread; new vehicles are not sold with a registration plate.

Actually, a friend of mine just bought a new vespa and it was sold with a red plate. The dealership would not let him take the bike without the red plate which would be changed to a white plate within 1 month.