US and Vietnam, 40 years after Saigon's fall, by the numbers

[webfact]

US and Vietnam, 40 years after Saigon's fall, by the numbers
The Associated Press

Key numbers related to the Vietnam War and how Vietnam has changed in the 40 years since the fall of Saigon:
___

THE PEOPLE:

—92.5 million: Vietnam's population in 2014. More than two-thirds of the country was born after the war ended.

—More than 1.3 million: Number of Americans of Vietnamese ethnic origin, up from 231,000 in 1980.

___

THE CASUALTIES:

—More than 58,000: Number of U.S. servicemen killed in Vietnam and neighboring Laos and Cambodia.

—More than 3 million: Number of Vietnamese communist fighters and civilians killed. That does not include South Vietnamese forces, whose losses are estimated by some American sources at up to 250,000.

—1,971: Number of Americans missing in action or otherwise unaccounted for in Vietnam at war's end.

—More than 700: Number of U.S. remains recovered and identified by joint U.S.-Vietnamese teams since then.

___

OTHER COSTS:

—About $250 billion: Estimated U.S. spending on the war from 1965 to 1975 — the equivalent of more than $1 trillion in today's dollars.

—5 million to 7.8 million: Tons of U.S. bombs dropped on Vietnam.

—800,000: Estimated tonnage of unexploded bombs and land mines left at war's end.

—35,000 to 42,000: Number of people killed by that ordnance since war's end.

—$80 million: Amount U.S. has spent on ordnance cleanup efforts so far.

—12 million: Gallons of the herbicide Agent Orange sprayed by the U.S., over about 10 percent of South Vietnam, from 1961-71. It contained the toxic chemical dioxin and is blamed for cancer, birth defects and other serious health problems among American veterans and generations of Vietnamese.

—2.1 million to 4.8 million: Number of Vietnamese exposed to Agent Orange.

—2.4 million: Estimated number of U.S. service members exposed.

—$65 million: Amount the U.S. has spent cleaning up dioxin in Vietnam so far.

___

FROM WAR TO BUSINESS:

—$170 million: Vietnam's exports in 1976.

—$132 billion: Vietnam's exports in 2013.

—Less than $500 million: U.S.-Vietnamese trade in 1995, when the countries normalized relations.

—$35 billion: U.S.-Vietnamese trade last year. The U.S. is Vietnam's biggest single-country export market.

—7.6 million: Number of foreign tourists to Vietnam in 2013.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-04-30

[rijb]

War is big business. Why else do we keep doing it?

[DLang]

Imagine the great evil of this World - The American Military-Industrial Complex - being brought to a halt and America not being at war with anybody.

Wouldn't it be fantastic.

Like true evil though, it's thirst is unquenchable.

[IMA_FARANG]

Yes, I am painfully aware of that day 40 years ago. Although I wasn't there then I lost my Vietnamese wife and adopted daughter as they apparently never got out of Saigon that day. So, if you don't mind, I would rather not be reminded of the events of 40 years ago when my life was turned upside down. It's been a long time, but in 40 years I have never been able to find a correct answer about what happened to either of them that day.

To be fair so have literally hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese who lost relatives on that day. The best I can say is that after 40 years I have learned to accept it as another event in my life.

[IMA_FARANG]

War is big business. Why else do we keep doing it?

--------------

You gave the answer..... it is still big business.

Ask Dick Chaney about Iraq and our business ventures there.

[oztaurus]

Imagine the great evil of this World - The American Military-Industrial Complex - being brought to a halt and America not being at war with anybody.

Wouldn't it be fantastic.

Like true evil though, it's thirst is unquenchable.

America has been at war 222 out of the last 239 years since 1776 when it was formed ... 93% of its life

[Jingthing]

I'm surprised there are only about a million Vietnamese ethnics in the U.S.!

I would have thought it much higher based on the large number of Pho restaurants in the places I've lived there.

[Jingthing]

War is big business. Why else do we keep doing it?

Well, it's good for the restaurant scene in the U.S.

Are there many Iraqi restaurants opening yet?

I really do enjoy the Afghani food.

[Jingthing]

Imagine the great evil of this World - The American Military-Industrial Complex - being brought to a halt and America not being at war with anybody.

Wouldn't it be fantastic.

Like true evil though, it's thirst is unquenchable.

To be replaced by who?

The Vietnam war was a mistake.

The Iraq war was a mistake.

Not a good recent record, that's for sure, but in the larger and longer historical context, the world could do a lot worse than having a powerful USA.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Jingthing

[tifino]

Why is the US being mentioned (bashed) in this Thread about Saigon of 24apr1975? ( of 40 years ago)

40 years since the fall of Sth Vietnam Capitol to the Nth Viet forces, in an Internal Civil War, which was simply the next recurrance of an unending Indo-China turmoil.

42 years 2 months since the end of the War involving the U.S and Allies against the Nth Viets

42 years 2 months ago (29feb73 Armistance Signed) the US & Allies etc began the process of re-establishing Embassies, as it was Peacetime again.

40 years ago, the Nth Viet flag-waving tank busted through the gates of the US Embassy.

40 years ago, the U.S. Forces in the vicinity were actually Embassy Staff and their Security, that had been stationed there since the Armistance.

40 years ago was the time of a short'n'swift victory in a civil war between the North and the South, that lasted but a few days or more.

40 years ago, the US Navy ships anchored off shore were simply there doing the same as more recently the US Navy ships off Iraq after that war too...

Why? - because the newspapers created all this, to make money

and they are still at it after 42 years

Edited April 30, 2015 by tifino

[Truth4All]

Yes, I am painfully aware of that day 40 years ago.

Although I wasn't there then I lost my Vietnamese wife and adopted daughter as they apparently never got out of Saigon that day.

So, if you don't mind, I would rather not be reminded of the events of 40 years ago when my life was turned upside down.

It's been a long time, but in 40 years I have never been able to find a correct answer about what happened to either of them that day.

To be fair so have latterly hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese who lost relatives on that day.

The best I can say is that after 40 years I have learned to accept it as another event in my life.

Fortunately, I didn't go there when they wanted me to go, and I see no reason to go there now.

Don't have any bad memories, personally. Accepting your losses is about all you can do-- glad to hear that you have.

[sgtsabai]

The US government/pentagon is currently engaged in an active whitewash of the history of the American War in Vietnam/Lao/Cambodia. Many are fighting back against that speaking truth to the power, including Veterans groups. There was never a North/South Vietnam, it was an artificial creation of the Geneva Accord 1954 to allow time for the French to get out and to prepare for an election to re-unify the country. The US did not allow that to happen. The man who wrote the Vietnamese Declaration of Independence/Constitution based on the same in the US had no choice to fight for his country. He was the same man that helped the OSS fight the Japanese in WWII. "Uncle Ho" lived just a little way outside Udonthani at one time. While many of us suffer from that damned illegal, immoral war, the Vietnamese have suffered far more and continue to until this day. It was the beginning of the end for the US empire but all the lessons learned were the wrong ones. The names on that black wall in DC should number much higher, much, much higher. My closest friend and brother Marine died from the poison the US sprayed as did many other of my friends. Many died from not being able to live with what we did. On the other hand, listen to the stories the Vietnamese tell, if you have a heart, it will break. And whatever you do, do NOT "thank you for your service" to me!

[Jimdandy]

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change things I can and wisdom to know the difference. Too many of my high school classmates never came home alive...

[sgtsabai]

I cannot change the past. The Nixon regime put me in jail until Supreme Court William O. Douglas ordered my release for speaking truth to the power. I will NOT let the US lie about Vietnam and neither will those surviving VVAW members and members of the GI Movement. If you can, please watch "Sir, No Sir" about the GI Movement, a tribute is paid to my brother John Kniffin, Sgt USMC 2 tours, Purple Heart, Bronze Star with V at the end. The pic is of the "Texas 3". I survive, Agent Orange poison got my other brothers. While the world may already know the truth, the US is trying to rewrite it and keep the public from knowing. Those that refuse to learn history are doomed to repeat its mistakes, read Iraq, Afghanistan etc., etc.

[bangkapi]

There is no good reason for these ridiculous wars that the US has been waging against so many countries and groups for so long. The ones that are not covertly started by the US provoking others to attack U.S. interests are started by U.S. covert agents performing false flag events.

[harryfrompattaya]

I hope us Americans learned from this if China wants South East Asia, Japan and Korea let Russia Africa EU or the Mid East Nation save them alson

Us Americans should not aid any country even Nepal or my Poor Blacks in Africa nothing in it for us

[GinBoy2]

Vietnam was a huge mistake, however remember that after the Paris 'peace' accords by the time Saigon fell. Nixon had pursued his Vietnamization policy since 1969, and when N. Vietnam broke the treaty and invaded the South there were practically no US forces left. I think there is a slight misunderstanding, either through the fog of time, or selective memory of history, that the North had signed a peace accord, the US had withdrawn it was Hanoi that broke the peace.

On a slightly different thread responding to the comments that American's seem to have created most of the problems in the world through their military actions, remember this of the major conlicts that have bedeviled they modern world:

Britain created Israel after the Balfour declaration.

Britain and France both artificially created the middle east nations we have today post 1918 and the Sykes Picquot agreement.

France created the modern countries of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia out of Indochina, artifically destroying the city state mandela system

Britain created the wars between India & Pakistan due to partition.

Africa, well where do we start? Lines arbitrarily drawn on a map by 19th century colonialists have probably resulted in more deaths on this planet that anywhere else, mostly unreported because nobody gives a damm

If we're talking blame, dudes, there's a sh*t load to go round

Edited May 1, 2015 by GinBoy2

[sgtsabai]

I would suggest that the original Geneva Accord of 1954 was the defining document pertaining to any "peace" agreement. There was no "North and South" Vietnam, it was always one country temporarily separated to allow the French to leave and elections to be held. Ho Chi Minh would have easily won. The US broke the agreement and then lied about the Tokin Gulf. Hence the American War in Vietnam/Lao/Cambodia. Had Nixon not traitously delayed the Paris Peace agreement until after the election the war would have ended many years before he escalated then deescalated. LBJ knew about his traitous actions but was afraid to release the information to the public. Thinking "they can't handle the truth", LBJ was wrong and it cost thousands of lives.

[GinBoy2]

I would suggest that the original Geneva Accord of 1954 was the defining document pertaining to any "peace" agreement. There was no "North and South" Vietnam, it was always one country temporarily separated to allow the French to leave and elections to be held. Ho Chi Minh would have easily won. The US broke the agreement and then lied about the Tokin Gulf. Hence the American War in Vietnam/Lao/Cambodia. Had Nixon not traitously delayed the Paris Peace agreement until after the election the war would have ended many years before he escalated then deescalated. LBJ knew about his traitous actions but was afraid to release the information to the public. Thinking "they can't handle the truth", LBJ was wrong and it cost thousands of lives.

I don't think that's exactly true. The State of Vietnam (South Vietnam) never accepted the 1954 Geneva accords (if was never a peace conference, it's major focus remember was to resolve Korea).

I'm not sure I understand the Nixon/LBJ traitorous reference

[sgtsabai]

You are wrong, there never was a South Vietnam and you'd better look up the Geneva Accord of 1954. It had nothing to do with Korea. The US wouldn't allow the election to take place because the knew Ho Chi Minh would win. Later, Tricky Dick went behind everybody's back and promised the government of then South Vietnam that if they would delay, i.e. not sign an agreement in Paris he would get them a better deal when elected. LBJ had this evidence and many signs point to that was what the Watergate break-in was all about. Nixon didn't want it public. LBJ didn't think the public could handle the truth and sat on the information. It is documented. It is also very well known the war continued for years and expanded into Cambodia.

[GinBoy2]

This is where you need to read a little more. The Geneva Conference of 1954 was twofold. Here's a quick reminder:

Geneva Conference (1954)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other similar events, see Geneva Conference.

The Geneva Conference (April 26 – July 20, 1954^[1]) was a conference which took place in Geneva, Switzerland, whose purpose was to attempt to find a way to settle outstanding issues on the Korean peninsula and discuss the possibility of restoring peace in Indochina.^[2] The Soviet Union, the United States, France, the United Kingdom, and the People’s Republic of China were participants throughout the whole conference while different countries concerned with the two questions were also represented during the discussion of their respective questions,^[3] which included the countries that sent troops through the United Nations to the Korean War and the various countries that ended the First Indochina Warbetween France and the Việt Minh.

The part of the conference on the Korean question ended without adopting any declarations or proposals. On Indochina, the conference produced a set of documents known as theGeneva Accords. These agreements temporarily separated Vietnam into two zones, a northern zone to be governed by the Việt Minh, and a southern zone to be governed by the State of Vietnam, then headed by former emperor Bảo Đại.

A Conference Final Declaration, issued by the British chairman of the conference, provided that a general election be held by July 1956 to create a unified Vietnamese state. Although presented as a consensus view, this document was not accepted by the delegates of either the State of Vietnam or the United States. In addition, three separate ceasefire accords, covering Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam, were signed at the conference.

On May 10, Pham Van Dong, leader of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) delegation set out their position which proposed a ceasefire, separation of the opposing forces, a ban on the introduction of new forces into Indochina, exchange of prisoners, independence and sovereignty for Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, elections for unified governments in each country, withdrawal of all foreign forces and the inclusion of the Pathet Lao and Khmer Issarak representatives at the Conference.^[4]:560 Pham Van Dong first proposed a temporary partition of Vietnam on May 25.^[9] Following their victory at Dien Bien Phu and given the worsening French security position around the Red River Delta, a ceasefire and partition would not appear to have been in the interests of the DRV, however it appears that the DRV leadership saw the balance of forces as uncomfortably close and were worried about morale problems among their troops and supporters after 8 years of war.^[4]:561 It has been argued that the Viet Minh might have prolonged the negotiations and continued fighting to achieve an even more favorable position militarily, if not for Chinese and Soviet pressure.^[9] In addition, there was a widespread perception that the Diem government would collapse, leaving the Viet Minh free to take control of the area.^[10]

On May 12, the State of Vietnam rejected any partition of the country and the U.S. expressed a similar position the next day. The French sought to implement a physical separation of the opposing forces into enclaves throughout the country, known as the "leopard-skin" approach. The DRV/Viet Minh would be given the Cà Mau Peninsula, 3 enclaves near Saigon, large areas of Annam and Tonkin, however the French Union forces would retain most urban areas and the Red River Delta, including Hanoi and Haiphong allowing it to resume combat operation in the north if necessary.^[4]:562–3

[Benmart]

War is big business. Why else do we keep doing it?

We? I try to speak only for myself.

[Benmart]

I hope us Americans learned from this if China wants South East Asia, Japan and Korea let Russia Africa EU or the Mid East Nation save them alson

Us Americans should not aid any country even Nepal or my Poor Blacks in Africa nothing in it for us

A bit confusing, but after reading it several times, I get the point.

[Bwanatickey]

Many of us on here are have been involved in a conflict in a civil war, but one thing I know, is that if this conflict between Cold War warriors, had not taken place, a lot of other wars would not have happened afterwards.

[sgtsabai]

Please pardon the following. For whatever reason I cannot make paragraphs etc. on this site. While I'm looking at paragraphs, when posted it will all run together. Good Wiki, the only part that matters is the part about Vietnam. One country, temporarily divided until elections the US refused to allow to happen, Really simple. Led to 100,000's dead and poisoned. Road-map to independence In the case of Vietnam, the Geneva conference adopted a similar approach. Vietnam would be temporarily divided and equipped with a road map to free elections, reunification and self-government. But the plan was hobbled before it began, chiefly because of the intransigence of major players

See more at: http://alphahistory.com/vietnam/geneva-accords-of-1954/#sthash.ZiOB6cbL.dpuf

Edited May 2, 2015 by seedy
Quote excessive

[rijb]

War is big business. Why else do we keep doing it?

We? I try to speak only for myself.

Me too. But, in this case I meant 'we' as in the human race.

[seedy]

One post edited -

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news
articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[sprq]

I would suggest that the original Geneva Accord of 1954 was the defining document pertaining to any "peace" agreement. There was no "North and South" Vietnam, it was always one country temporarily separated to allow the French to leave and elections to be held. Ho Chi Minh would have easily won. The US broke the agreement and then lied about the Tokin Gulf. Hence the American War in Vietnam/Lao/Cambodia. Had Nixon not traitously delayed the Paris Peace agreement until after the election the war would have ended many years before he escalated then deescalated. LBJ knew about his traitous actions but was afraid to release the information to the public. Thinking "they can't handle the truth", LBJ was wrong and it cost thousands of lives.

Millions of lives, actually. Almost all of them Indochinese. One of the great crimes of the 20th century. Perpetrated by the USA.

[Robby nz]

To this day, 40 years on there are UN, not US, bomb disposal team working in the east of Lao and Cambodia. Been there and seen them myself.

Off topic but then came Long Chen, the most secret place on earth : http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JH26Ae01.html

[tifino]

...and the aftermath has, and will continue...

co-lateral damage

Edited May 13, 2015 by tifino