American gay couple unable to leave Thailand with daughter

[FritsSikkink]

Surrogacy in Thailand is just another example of the lack of ethics that is so prevalent in the Thai medical industry

you forget about the lack of ethics from the falangs who buy them

[cumgranosalum]

Surrogacy in Thailand is just another example of the lack of ethics that is so prevalent in the Thai medical industry

you forget about the lack of ethics from the falangs who buy them

Whatever gives you that idea? I would have thought it is fairly obvious that the "punters" are short on ethics which is why they are unable to do this in many countries because the ethics of their medical services won't allow it....but THAILAND's health care industry will do just about anything if they can get way with it.....and this is an example of that....

Anyone who thinks this lack of ethics stops there is kidding themself....there is virtually no mechanism set up in Thailand to prevent just about any kind od "dodgy" healthcare practice......people need to be aware of that.

[jdinasia]

I've already given the definition of "natural Parenting", that is a mother & father. Don't know what other citations/ references you require, the majority of world's population are borne through male/ female intercourse & children raised in male/ female relationship. That's been the natural process of the human race, surrogacy is a recent aspect, as is

same sex parenting, it's not natural, is it of benefit to a child to be raised I such a relationship? Don't believe any research has been undertaken, maybe, you're aware of such research??

The thrust of what I'm saying is, the issues/ arguments focus on the couple/ adoptive parents, rather think should be on child/ children....what's best for child!!

Why wouldn't it be best for the child to be raised in a loving home even if the parents were same sex?

Male and female parents provide different roles.

The relationship between a father and daughter is quite different from a mother and daughter. Same with sons - a father/son relationship is very different than a mother/son relationship. There are certain things that both sexes go through during puberty that a parent of that same sex helps with.

Then there is the obvious issue of the fact that kids are just damn cruel. So kids with same sex parents can expect to be teased and bullied about it at school.

There's some interesting experiences outlined in Federal Court here: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/adults-raised-gay-couples-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court - the upshot being that it wasn't so much the gay parents themselves but being brought up in gay communities and socializing with mostly gay friends. In the end the kids having little exposure to heterosexual couples and their kids.

The bottom line is you should not be able to buy a child. Any couple that cannot have children should be screened for suitability before being able to adopt or go through surrogacy. I think that allowing any couples, gay or otherwise to buy a child is abhorrent.

Utter crap.

[eggers]

I've already given the definition of "natural Parenting", that is a mother & father. Don't know what other citations/ references you require, the majority of world's population are borne through male/ female intercourse & children raised in male/ female relationship. That's been the natural process of the human race, surrogacy is a recent aspect, as is

same sex parenting, it's not natural, is it of benefit to a child to be raised I such a relationship? Don't believe any research has been undertaken, maybe, you're aware of such research??

The thrust of what I'm saying is, the issues/ arguments focus on the couple/ adoptive parents, rather think should be on child/ children....what's best for child!!

Why wouldn't it be best for the child to be raised in a loving home even if the parents were same sex?

Male and female parents provide different roles.

The relationship between a father and daughter is quite different from a mother and daughter. Same with sons - a father/son relationship is very different than a mother/son relationship. There are certain things that both sexes go through during puberty that a parent of that same sex helps with.

Then there is the obvious issue of the fact that kids are just damn cruel. So kids with same sex parents can expect to be teased and bullied about it at school.

There's some interesting experiences outlined in Federal Court here: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/adults-raised-gay-couples-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court - the upshot being that it wasn't so much the gay parents themselves but being brought up in gay communities and socializing with mostly gay friends. In the end the kids having little exposure to heterosexual couples and their kids.

The bottom line is you should not be able to buy a child. Any couple that cannot have children should be screened for suitability before being able to adopt or go through surrogacy. I think that allowing any couples, gay or otherwise to buy a child is abhorrent.

Utter crap.

Yeh right, that adds sensible comment to the discussion!!

[Chaz1819]

I reckon it must be strange for the child if they are with a gay couple. I would think it would really have a psychological effect on them that would stay with them for life

Yes, you are correct, everything has a psychological effect on children.

Being loved, cherished and raised by a gay couple would have a wonderful psychological effect on a child. Just like it would when a heterosexual couple provides the same.

It would be great if we had more parents, of any sexual orientation, with the ability to love, cherish and raise a child.

[Chaz1819]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

I recommend you take up reading. It would give your posts a bit more value.

[Thongkorn]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

[Jingthing]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

[cumgranosalum]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

It's always been sad.....throughout history

[Jingthing]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

It's always been sad.....throughout history

If I said such a noxious thing about heterosexuality, you'd correctly call me a bigot.

[thaibeachlovers]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

I couldn't care less about homosexuality vs heterosexuality ( just do whatever turns you on ), but you write as if you don't know more people in the world loathe homosexuals than don't- eg the vast majority of the Muslim community.

Homosexuals make up only 10% of humanity, far as can be ascertained. Their success in the west is in convincing everyone that they are more than they really are and that people support them, when they probably couldn't be bothered. I don't know any heterosexual people that give a damn about it.

[animatic]

Gay couple.... baby... I don't need to read the rest, if this is a debate then the world's gone to shayte... wake me up when I wake up...

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

I couldn't care less about homosexuality vs heterosexuality ( just do whatever turns you on ), but you write as if you don't know more people in the world loathe homosexuals than don't- eg the vast majority of the Muslim community.

Homosexuals make up only 10% of humanity, far as can be ascertained. Their success in the west is in convincing everyone that they are more than they really are and that people support them, when they probably couldn't be bothered. I don't know any heterosexual people that give a damn about it.

It makes no difference how many there are.

They are a naturally occurring segment of the human race and deserve equal treatment,

not subhuman treatment as some inbred, intolerant haters would still prefer.

Times have changed, but some people are very slow to catch up.

It seems plausible that the majority don't loathe them, but simply don't want to be them.

Loathing takes more than just a religiously ingrained antipathy. It takes active hate.

The why's and how's of that fearfulness come deeply seated for too many.

Edited July 6, 2015 by animatic

[thaibeachlovers]

Totally agree, now wonder children are growing up confused, In my books a Dad is male and Mam Is a female. its a Sad world

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

I couldn't care less about homosexuality vs heterosexuality ( just do whatever turns you on ), but you write as if you don't know more people in the world loathe homosexuals than don't- eg the vast majority of the Muslim community.

Homosexuals make up only 10% of humanity, far as can be ascertained. Their success in the west is in convincing everyone that they are more than they really are and that people support them, when they probably couldn't be bothered. I don't know any heterosexual people that give a damn about it.

It makes no difference how many there are.

They are a naturally occurring segment of the human race and deserve equal treatment,

not subhuman treatment as some inbred, intolerant haters would still prefer.

Times have changed, but some people are very slow to catch up.

It seems plausible that the majority don't loathe them, but simply don't want to be them.

Loathing takes more than just a religiously ingrained antipathy. It takes active hate.

The why's and how's of that fearfulness come deeply seated for too many.

Not disagreeing with you. I was responding to Jing's statement about wrong side of history.

quote deleted to allow posting.

[animatic]

I guess it's "sad" to be anti-gay these days ...

Wrong side of history and all that jazz.

I couldn't care less about homosexuality vs heterosexuality ( just do whatever turns you on ), but you write as if you don't know more people in the world loathe homosexuals than don't- eg the vast majority of the Muslim community.

Homosexuals make up only 10% of humanity, far as can be ascertained. Their success in the west is in convincing everyone that they are more than they really are and that people support them, when they probably couldn't be bothered. I don't know any heterosexual people that give a damn about it.

It makes no difference how many there are.

They are a naturally occurring segment of the human race and deserve equal treatment,

not subhuman treatment as some inbred, intolerant haters would still prefer.

Times have changed, but some people are very slow to catch up.

It seems plausible that the majority don't loathe them, but simply don't want to be them.

Loathing takes more than just a religiously ingrained antipathy. It takes active hate.

The why's and how's of that fearfulness come deeply seated for too many.

Not disagreeing with you. I was responding to Jing's statement about wrong side of history.

quote deleted to allow posting.

I didn't think you loathed them from your comment, but were making an observation.

And by inbred, I meant attitudes of many generations, passed on as if they should be law.

When in fact the weight of history has shown originally great tolerance for gays,

then so called 'Civilized Man' laid the hammer down against them, most often

a theologically ordained hammer, based on keeping church members of fighting strength up

versus other tribes and churches all warring for the minds and bodies of the people.

These same theological hold-overs to grasping power can still be seen in scripture

for many religions, the need to keep numbers up by any an all means,

so warring on an opposing or invading creed can be won

and the faith built greater and ever more powerful.

And of course, the paranoia kept at fever pitch as long as possible.

Fervor breeding stupidity and useful idiots.

Most of the war on Gays in the last millennia were mostly tribal strength exercises.

Plus the usual us against them focusing on someone to be against to unify numbers.

Edited July 7, 2015 by animatic

[Zenio]

So sad and disappointed to read the antiquated and closed minded views of some of the members on the forum in relation to this story, especially considering that these same individuals choose to live in a country that has largely shown acceptance of it's LGBT citizens.

While I agree that adoption would be a logical choice (gay or straight families) given the sheer number of abandoned children in the world, I certainly wouldn't be mandating that someone can't have a biological child through surrogacy, particularly if this was made with consent and agreement (not exploitation) between all parties.

Let's also look at the pertinent fact that a lot of these abandoned children would stem from a 'straight' relationship, so your arguments for a 'traditional' family as the place to raise a child doesn't place you in good standing. Yes, before anyone asks, I was raised in a 'traditional' family with Ma and Pa....but it was anything but normal (alcoholism, adultery, gambling etc...), so you know what? I could have cared less if I had two mothers or two fathers. I simply would have preferred to have two parents that loved me and provided a more stable environment in which to raise me regardless of their gender.

To those that state that children raised by gay parents are subjected to the risk of ridicule and teasing...who is actually the problem? The children, their same sex parents? Or is it the actuality the individual doing the ridiculing and teasing? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror and actually realise you are the problem.

And finally for those bemoaning the 'good old days'...get over it or go hide your head in the sand. Change is inevitable, happens everyday, whether it's good or bad (from your perspective), so learn to adjust/adapt and be more accepting and understanding, period. We have enough hate, animosity, wars and other social issues in this world to deal with, so if a gay (or straight) couple chooses to love each other and wants a child through surrogacy to share in that love, we should actually be supportive of that instead.

At the end of the day, individuals have a choice to either show their capacity to show empathy, compassion, love and understanding OR choose to be ignorant, close minded, hateful and bigoted. As a human being I know which I would rather choose, particularly when we reach the end of our lives, and have the opportunity (hopefully) to reflect on our past actions and decisions.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Zenio

[animatic]

So sad and disappointed to read the antiquated and closed minded views of some of the members on the forum in relation to this story, especially considering that these same individuals choose to live in a country that has largely shown acceptance of it's LGBT citizens.

While I agree that adoption would be a logical choice (gay or straight families) given the sheer number of abandoned children in the world, I certainly wouldn't be mandating that someone can't have a biological child through surrogacy, particularly if this was made with consent and agreement (not exploitation) between all parties.

Let's also look at the pertinent fact that a lot of these abandoned children would stem from a 'straight' relationship, so your arguments for a 'traditional' family as the place to raise a child doesn't place you in good standing. Yes, before anyone asks, I was raised in a 'traditional' family with Ma and Pa....but it was anything but normal (alcoholism, adultery, gambling etc...), so you know what? I could have cared less if I had two mothers or two fathers. I simply would have preferred to have two parents that loved me and provided a more stable environment in which to raise me regardless of their gender.

To those that state that children raised by gay parents are subjected to the risk of ridicule and teasing...who is actually the problem? The children, their same sex parents? Or is it the actuality the individual doing the ridiculing and teasing? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror and actually realise you are the problem.

And finally for those bemoaning the 'good old days'...get over it or go hide your head in the sand. Change is inevitable, happens everyday, whether it's good or bad (from your perspective), so learn to adjust/adapt and be more accepting and understanding, period. We have enough hate, animosity, wars and other social issues in this world to deal with, so if a gay (or straight) couple chooses to love each other and wants a child through surrogacy to share in that love, we should actually be supportive of that instead.

At the end of the day, individuals have a choice to either show their capacity to show empathy, compassion, love and understanding OR choose to be ignorant, close minded, hateful and bigoted. As a human being I know which I would rather choose, particularly when we reach the end of our lives, and have the opportunity (hopefully) to reflect on our past actions and decisions.

A scintillating first post by any standard.

I think it comes down to respect for other human beings who make choices that are not yours,

but are legal, not a public health issue, and impact no one who doesn't go out of their way to act impacted.

And that goes for the whole slew of self-righteous Christians who imagine their creed MUST rule all others.

MOST christians I know are NOT like that, they are reasonable, thoughtful and kindhearted people,m

who have the ability to change with the times and make value judgments based on innate goodness,

and not just whom someone sleeps with...

[richard_smith237]

This is now big news on the Thai Web Forums (Panthip)...

This story has also been quite large in the Thai News, initially the Surrogate mother claiming she was concerned for the Childs welfare and suspected trafficking...

However, Thai netizens have dug up old Facebook pages where the surrogate mother has commented on and shown how desperate she is to have a 'luk-krung' baby...

This is starting to appear as though the Surrogate mother planned the the whole situation to keep the child.

Added to which: The Surrogate is not the Biological Mother... One of the 'Gay Couple' is the Biological father... IMO this supersedes any other discussion.

The infant should rightly be returned to the Biological parent.

[thaibeachlovers]

This is now big news on the Thai Web Forums (Panthip)...

This story has also been quite large in the Thai News, initially the Surrogate mother claiming she was concerned for the Childs welfare and suspected trafficking...

However, Thai netizens have dug up old Facebook pages where the surrogate mother has commented on and shown how desperate she is to have a 'luk-krung' baby...

This is starting to appear as though the Surrogate mother planned the the whole situation to keep the child.

Added to which: The Surrogate is not the Biological Mother... One of the 'Gay Couple' is the Biological father... IMO this supersedes any other discussion.

The infant should rightly be returned to the Biological parent.

I hope the Americans will not be paying any support for the child then.

I think this whole thread has gone off course with the debate about homosexuality. IMO the only consideration is whether it is acceptable to exploit poor women in a foreign country to produce a child when that could be done in their own country.

[Bluespunk]

This is now big news on the Thai Web Forums (Panthip)...

This story has also been quite large in the Thai News, initially the Surrogate mother claiming she was concerned for the Childs welfare and suspected trafficking...

However, Thai netizens have dug up old Facebook pages where the surrogate mother has commented on and shown how desperate she is to have a 'luk-krung' baby...

This is starting to appear as though the Surrogate mother planned the the whole situation to keep the child.

Added to which: The Surrogate is not the Biological Mother... One of the 'Gay Couple' is the Biological father... IMO this supersedes any other discussion.

The infant should rightly be returned to the Biological parent.

I hope the Americans will not be paying any support for the child then.

I think this whole thread has gone off course with the debate about homosexuality. IMO the only consideration is whether it is acceptable to exploit poor women in a foreign country to produce a child when that could be done in their own country.

Disagree.

The mother's bigoted reasons (or at least her alleged reasons) for not allowing the child to be with their biological father is just as relevant an aspect of this story.

[thaibeachlovers]

This is now big news on the Thai Web Forums (Panthip)...

This story has also been quite large in the Thai News, initially the Surrogate mother claiming she was concerned for the Childs welfare and suspected trafficking...

However, Thai netizens have dug up old Facebook pages where the surrogate mother has commented on and shown how desperate she is to have a 'luk-krung' baby...

This is starting to appear as though the Surrogate mother planned the the whole situation to keep the child.

Added to which: The Surrogate is not the Biological Mother... One of the 'Gay Couple' is the Biological father... IMO this supersedes any other discussion.

The infant should rightly be returned to the Biological parent.

I hope the Americans will not be paying any support for the child then.

I think this whole thread has gone off course with the debate about homosexuality. IMO the only consideration is whether it is acceptable to exploit poor women in a foreign country to produce a child when that could be done in their own country.

Disagree.

The mother's bigoted reasons (or at least her alleged reasons) for not allowing the child to be with their biological father is just as relevant an aspect of this story.

I was referring to the debate on this thread about homosexuality, not the mother's supposed reasons.

[Bluespunk]

I know that and see your point and, to a certain extent, have reservations on the moral issues around surrogacy, however the mother claimed the parents being gay was a reason for not giving their child into their care.

That does make the issue relevant to this thread.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Bluespunk

[farang000999]

https://www.change.org/p/bring-carmen-home

Something that may help

[Roadman]

This is now big news on the Thai Web Forums (Panthip)...

This story has also been quite large in the Thai News, initially the Surrogate mother claiming she was concerned for the Childs welfare and suspected trafficking...

However, Thai netizens have dug up old Facebook pages where the surrogate mother has commented on and shown how desperate she is to have a 'luk-krung' baby...

This is starting to appear as though the Surrogate mother planned the the whole situation to keep the child.

Added to which: The Surrogate is not the Biological Mother... One of the 'Gay Couple' is the Biological father... IMO this supersedes any other discussion.

The infant should rightly be returned to the Biological parent.

I hope the Americans will not be paying any support for the child then.

I think this whole thread has gone off course with the debate about homosexuality. IMO the only consideration is whether it is acceptable to exploit poor women in a foreign country to produce a child when that could be done in their own country.

Agree. I can not decide who is at most fault between the thai surrogate or the gay couple. The "now claiming innocence" gay couple claim they done their homework yet if they had they would have known what they were doing was illegal under thai law regardless of what a corrupt money hungry clinic's doctor was telling them. Let alone putting aside the obvious questions of why do this in a country on the other side of the world and not your own? Tend to side with the thai surrogate, even accepting her moral values as no better than the gay couple, as DNA ownership does not equal the development of a loving bond. And the thai surrogate certainly has had the claim on bonding. Thankfully the Junta is now enforcing the law to put a stop to this whole international trading practice for every bodies sake.

[empireboy]

I totally disagree with same sex couples bringing up children. The child is reared in an unusual environment whatever the gays might like to make out.

But single dad's are ok with you I presume?

If "yes" what is the real issue with adding another significant male figure? Especially IF the child is in truly loving care?

The logic seems to be escaping me but I'm open to to if it exists.

Oh.....!!

So THAT'S less beneficial than molesting parent or a seductive school teacher?!!

[Jingthing]

The new law was not in effect before.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Jingthing

[ianf]

Quite right too.

Edited August 23, 2015 by ianf

[stickylies]

Can anyone spot something terribly wrong in this sentence? or is it just me.

"A Florida man claims he and his husband ...."

Should it be "Floridan" man ?

[Jingthing]

Can anyone spot something terribly wrong in this sentence? or is it just me.

"A Florida man claims he and his husband ...."

Should it be "Floridan" man ?

The usage in the sentence is correct. You would say Florida man if using man just as you would say New York man, not New Yorker man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Floridan

Every Floridan is a Floridian, but not every Floridian is a Floridan.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Jingthing

[stickylies]

Can anyone spot something terribly wrong in this sentence? or is it just me.

"A Florida man claims he and his husband ...."

Should it be "Floridan" man ?

The usage in the sentence is correct. You would say Florida man if using man just as you would say New York man, not New Yorker man.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Floridan

Every Floridan is a Floridian, but not every Floridian is a Floridan.

it was a joke ... oh well.

[gandalf12]

I reckon it must be strange for the child if they are with a gay couple. I would think it would really have a psychological effect on them that wwould stay with them for life

perhaps you'd care to outline those effects?

Yes the rationalisation of not having a Mother and a Father which the other children have. Who is the mother and who is the father? You obviously have some very strange concepts of people if you believe a child is going to identify two men or women as a mother and father. The child is the one who has to take the name calling from other children not the gay "parents"