Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[BlahBlah23]

We don't believe NS "evidence" his lawyer gave for him being in Bangkok... Also all of the info is coming from one side with a vested interest in the outcome of the case. Conflict of interest anyone? Normally evidence given to clear a suspect is given to the public in great detail, Because the public want to feel sure criminals are held accountable, and police are held accountable to the standards of the law. Your new, maybe you won't dodge the question.... If NS is innocent why has he given nothing else to prove it? There are what 500K cameras all over Bangkok, and that's all he can give? Also, why did he hide? Why did he initially refuse to give DNA citing his "Human Rights"? Why is there even a Rumor he was on the Island?

Whether JTJ is paid for his posts is not important. What's important is trying to sift through the lies and get to the truth. The truth put forth so far is bleeding from every orifice.

I do understand your sense of frustration at not getting the answers you want, but what we need to remember this is a trial which is happening now and whether we like it or not there is a good chance we are not privy to all the details of what is transpiring in the court room, and the evidence presented.

From someone who has just stepped into this discussion and read through the vast amount of postings there is clearly two camps which have been set up, those for the boys from Myanmar and those against, but the end game is all want justice. The problem now both sides are entrenched in there respective corners and will not change now, partly driven from the fact you would be bombarded with 'i told you so' postings.

I understand no one believes the NS evidence, i have to admit it is not overly convincing, but again how much do we actually know. Is such as cover up of this scale actually possible, but it only takes one photograph or one piece of CCTV evidence and the walls will come tumbling down, and the ramifications pretty bad. I am sure there are conflicts of interest, is this not normal, is it not natural that the Resort owner would protect his son anyway he could, and if that involves paying of the policemen to make this go away then that's what has to be done, very unethical if that is the case.

With regard to NS not giving more evidence, i suspect the answer is 'why should he' he has already presented information, the best option would no doubt be lay low, if you start giving yourself more exposure it will undoubtedly raise more risks. I was not aware he refused to give his DNA, but understand this was performed later at the infamous press conference, but what the DNA was matched to i really am not sure.

The one thing i simply cannot get my head around is, if it is one big cover up, how would it even be possible, surely one person would have come forward with some information, but on the other hand, maybe they have and we have yet to see such information out in the open.

For me, i am looking forward to the defence having their day in court, from what i have read they seem to have some vital information which will contradict the information the police have presented, but we also have to be prepared for the fact it may be not as explosive as people are hoping for. I expect it will be from one of the deceased friends, and will be 'photographic' rather than just verbal evidence which will give a strong indication as to what transpired that night, and maybe substantiate the 'rumours' or maybe i am completely wrong, who knows.

I don't believe JTJ and the others are being paid, they are simply offering counter arguments, which frustrates people into making these statements, more likely they just enjoy the banter.

As a final note, i seen someone post the word 'dillweed' think it has been edited out now, but that was hilarious, Beavis and Butt-head used to use that word all the time... nice one.

[fayou]

Reply to @smedly http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/page-232#entry9681480

'two different people and are at different zoom levels on the stills?' Well... i think there are not so many running man out there in Koh Tao with just different colored shorts. Two different people ? Yes, but whose photos layered over each other and then copied into a background picture from the CCTV video footage. This was not a compairson with a another living person running in front of a camera but with another existing picture. The article says;


-Police have used superimposition, a specialised forensic medical technique, to compare an image of a man captured by a surveillance camera with the pictures of suspects.

-The superimposition technique was applied to two of three suspects who allegedly molested Hannah Witheridge, one of the murdered tourists,on Sept 15, the night of the murder. A tourist had photographed them before the killings.


If you have a photo and just 'zoom in, ' you will never have the effect you describe.

However, I think the article and the picture is kind a strange. It will not bring any conclusion at all. The phone and towel have been just an idea when the forensic team created this picture.I wouldn't take it very seriously. If you watch the original CCTV video footage, there is no towel or phone.

Edited July 31, 2015 by fayou

[Nigeone]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

[stephenterry]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

Clearly, it's too early to say, but the judge gave an indication that the case won't be resolved at this court. Whether a change of mind occurs, will depend on next month's evidence, IMO.

I'm not putting my house on the line, but what western opinion might be in relation to ineptitude, misdirection et al, the Thais will carry on in their own way, however ridiculous it might appear to non-Thais. And that's not to bash them, it's how it's been going on for decades.

I do think the defence have information and the clout to counter the prosecution's case - more so since Andy Hall is seeking legal counsel from the UK. he wouldn't be doing that if the defence case was weak or was unable to refute the prosecution's.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Darkknight666

There you go again! Trying to spread rumors and gossip that have no truth to them at all and have several times here already proved false.

NS did not refuse to give his DNA because he was never ask for it. Understand That! He was never asked for it! He was cleared on his Alibi alone. He gave his DNA on a Volunteer basis only. So why is it that every week you have to be told this? Are you really that forgetful? Or are you just trying to be a Snot Nosed Little Kid?

What makes you think you are so important that the Police and Prosecution in this country, or any other for that matter, owe you any explanation? Least of all in an ongoing murder investigation. They owe you NOTHING Sonny Boy! Nothing! Zippity Do-da! Zilch! They do not have to produce evidence for you or explain to you why a suspect has been cleared. For Brain Washed People it would only be a waste of time anyway.

Haven't you notice that the Police have stopped making Press Conferences since the end of October? That the only ones speaking about it now seem to be the Defense or the Media expressing their opinions? This is standard protocol in many countries in that Police and Prosecution don't talk about it to the public. They talk about it in court. .

If you want to stamp out crime and corruption in this world then maybe start in Burma (Myanmar) as they have some of the highest crime rates in the World, and by far near the highest Corruption Rate in the World to. Myanmar is tied with Zimbabwe for Corruption, for God's Sake. So if you want to help Burmese People, go their.

[Nigeone]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

Clearly, it's too early to say, but the judge gave an indication that the case won't be resolved at this court. Whether a change of mind occurs, will depend on next month's evidence, IMO.

I'm not putting my house on the line, but what western opinion might be in relation to ineptitude, misdirection et al, the Thais will carry on in their own way, however ridiculous it might appear to non-Thais. And that's not to bash them, it's how it's been going on for decades.

I do think the defence have information and the clout to counter the prosecution's case - more so since Andy Hall is seeking legal counsel from the UK. he wouldn't be doing that if the defence case was weak or was unable to refute the prosecution's.

All fair points but you eluded to the point I was making. Up to now there has not been any prosecution case just talk. Or lack of it in the case of the investigating officer answering don't know on several points. And of course the crime scene abuse. They must know ,the Prosecution police ect, that it isn't going well and that's to put it mildly . But I do think like you the next part of the trial will be defining. However I said it before I don't see in any shape or form how the case is going to get anyway close to completion in the time frame so I'm not sure how far on it will be after the next block. Or indeed what more is going to come out. I don't know !! Is not going to help in conclusion of anything.

[BlahBlah23]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

Clearly, it's too early to say, but the judge gave an indication that the case won't be resolved at this court. Whether a change of mind occurs, will depend on next month's evidence, IMO.

I'm not putting my house on the line, but what western opinion might be in relation to ineptitude, misdirection et al, the Thais will carry on in their own way, however ridiculous it might appear to non-Thais. And that's not to bash them, it's how it's been going on for decades.

I do think the defence have information and the clout to counter the prosecution's case - more so since Andy Hall is seeking legal counsel from the UK. he wouldn't be doing that if the defence case was weak or was unable to refute the prosecution's.

Just throwing this out there, can the Judge or Judges declare that no appeal can take place, more so if the two Myanmar boys are acquitted on very strong evidence ?

[Nigeone]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

Clearly, it's too early to say, but the judge gave an indication that the case won't be resolved at this court. Whether a change of mind occurs, will depend on next month's evidence, IMO.

I'm not putting my house on the line, but what western opinion might be in relation to ineptitude, misdirection et al, the Thais will carry on in their own way, however ridiculous it might appear to non-Thais. And that's not to bash them, it's how it's been going on for decades.

I do think the defence have information and the clout to counter the prosecution's case - more so since Andy Hall is seeking legal counsel from the UK. he wouldn't be doing that if the defence case was weak or was unable to refute the prosecution's.

Just throwing this out there, can the Judge or Judges declare that no appeal can take place, more so if the two Myanmar boys are acquitted on very strong evidence ?

I suppose in reality in my opinion they could do what they want but if there sensible they wouldn't deny a appeal. If they did disallow one that wouldn't do them any favors as the ridicule and pressure from human rights and other countries would be immense. Also as it's clear international procedures haven't been followed in this case it would leave them wide open for more accusations of a cover up.

[stephenterry]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

[Darkknight666]

Darkknight666

There you go again! Trying to spread rumors and gossip that have no truth to them at all and have several times here already proved false.

NS did not refuse to give his DNA because he was never ask for it. Understand That! He was never asked for it! He was cleared on his Alibi alone. He gave his DNA on a Volunteer basis only. So why is it that every week you have to be told this? Are you really that forgetful? Or are you just trying to be a Snot Nosed Little Kid?

What makes you think you are so important that the Police and Prosecution in this country, or any other for that matter, owe you any explanation? Least of all in an ongoing murder investigation. They owe you NOTHING Sonny Boy! Nothing! Zippity Do-da! Zilch! They do not have to produce evidence for you or explain to you why a suspect has been cleared. For Brain Washed People it would only be a waste of time anyway.

Haven't you notice that the Police have stopped making Press Conferences since the end of October? That the only ones speaking about it now seem to be the Defense or the Media expressing their opinions? This is standard protocol in many countries in that Police and Prosecution don't talk about it to the public. They talk about it in court. .

If you want to stamp out crime and corruption in this world then maybe start in Burma (Myanmar) as they have some of the highest crime rates in the World, and by far near the highest Corruption Rate in the World to. Myanmar is tied with Zimbabwe for Corruption, for God's Sake. So if you want to help Burmese People, go their.

Uh, LOL.

Listen GB, I've lived here during and followed this case since it happened. I mention NS as often as Shark Tooth, Hoe Man and Mon yet you only complain when I mention NS, why? Yes the police do have an obligation to explain to the people that pay them what evidence they have to convict someone. It has to do with transparency, try google.

And Protocols? They've been proven near non existent in this case and many others. I don't but the evidence police have verbally given, that's not enough for many, many people, my wife and her family, and people all over the world included. Why do you have a problem with that? If Zaw and Win turn up in evidence that can't be disputed then fine, but they haven't... Neither have any other suspects at this point. I'm

Here giving an opinion... That's what this board is for.

Sounds like you may need a nap, you're cranky.

[Nigeone]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

[StealthEnergiser]

Some people here seem to have the agenda of wasting as much time of others as possible, sending topics round and round. Pretty much no-one is going to change their mind for the foreseeable future that much is clear.

Having stepped back from getting involved in 'discussions' for a few days now I'm able to follow the overall thread somewhat more clearly. The bigger picture shows a few people imo trying to direct / misdirect the thread, keep their opposition as busy as possible, defend NS/family whenever required then move the thread in a new direction etc. even try and say the police have done a good job (that has to be frustrating as impossible to do without losing credibility).

I'd recommend seriously reducing the amount of time wasted and effort spent interacting with certain posters. Keep it short and simple, if at all. If they want a link let them to go find it instead of spending your own time digging back. Whether they get links or not their view will not change, and let's be honest do we even care what they think or say? The few people backing the RTP's version of events and prosecution case will never be turned. They are doing a job. Flag up their misinformation/errors but don't get drawn in and don't waste time on them.

There is no need for any one-upmanship. They are not worth it. Their (official) view will never change. The majority would like to see good policing / investigating, transparency and justice. The few arguing with them do not want all three of those things.

Just saying it how it appears to me.

"The bigger picture shows a few people imo trying to direct / misdirect the thread, keep their opposition as busy as possible, defend NS/family whenever required then move the thread in a new direction etc"

The topic of this thread is Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists, people looking for information regarding that topic would be expected to find it here, instead the same group of overexcited conspiracy theorist are, once again, turning it into an All-you-can-make-up buffet. Repeating the same mantras, reposting the same pictures and videos (it must be the tenth time StealthEnergizer posts that video in the previous post) and so on and so forth.

So no, it's the people that want to drag their pet theories into a discussion of the trial the ones that are misdirecting things.

Thanks for reminding me as it great to keep this up front , as a lot of Sondhi words seem to be very true.

Edited July 31, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[stephenterry]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

They will not be set free while an appeals process is taking place. Bail has been denied at all stages so far. Unlikely to change. That's my understanding.

[stephenterry]

To clarify. While many aspects could depend on a whim, legal process is followed properly,IMO. But I'm not a legal expert by any measure. So take my assertions as contestable.

[Linky]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

They will not be set free while an appeals process is taking place. Bail has been denied at all stages so far. Unlikely to change. That's my understanding.

In any 'normal' court if they are found not guilty they would not indeed need bail, they would be free pending the appeal result.

If found guilty they would be behind bars pending appeal result.

However I do recall a case in Thailand where someone (maybe a cop) was on bail after a guilty verdict but cant be bothered finding it.

[boomerangutang]

How is it after (9 or is it 10) court appearances and this Crime Scene was "Contaminated", "Compromised" and "Destroyed", as you said, and thus all the the Evidence was "Contaminated" "Compromised" and "Destroyed", that the 2 Accused are still sitting in Prison, after 10 months, and are waiting to answer to these charges?

Because it's a frame-up. Connect the dots.

GOLDBUGGY, you use the word 'all'. I don't think anyone said ALL the evidence has been contaminated/compromised/destroyed. Plus you didn't use the words 'misrepresented' or 'planted', but again some evidence has been subject to those words, and some not. Please try not to paint the online detective work (the work that RTP should have been doing) in such simplistic all-or-nothing language. There is still some evidence which was not contaminated or mis-read or altered, though we'll probably have to wait for the defense's case to find out what that is.

Here's a Q: What has RTP done since November 2014, to try and move the investigation along? Granted, we don't know everything they do, but still, in 9 months, has there been any announcement of anything (pertaining to the investigation) from RTP? Has any of the court proceedings indicated anything's been done? Are there any RTP officers supposedly working to uncover the truth of the crime? They've all been getting salaries for the past 9 months? ....but for doing what? If I fry one egg, I've done more than all RTP officials working on this case have done for the past 9 months. Prove me wrong, if you can.

Rule #1: Never investigate rumors. Because they might be true and then must be called "facts". 555

Rule #2: Never forget it is just a rumor..... if still unsure refer back to Rule #2

Bonez, perhaps you're trying to be cute, but rumors are a big part of what good detectives feed upon. In investigations, they call them leads. An adept detective is supposed to follow leads, and see whether they're worthwhile and substantiated. If not, they're dropped. Thai detectives work with different parameters. They're told by higher-ups what conclusion is demanded. Then it's up to Thai detectives to find the puzzle pieces, valid or not, to complete the puzzle - to please their higher ups. If they have to fake evidence, the will. Any leads which point at someone/something which higher ups don't want to see - are stuffed or misconstrued.

[boomerangutang]

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

Why would they investigate this when they interviewed people at the bar including friends who didn't see such a thing? This is why it is rumor as NOBODY they have spoken to who was at the bar saw it. They police also testified that there was NOBODY on any of the video harassing her. The fact the cop said it was only rumor is something you cannot grasp, you want to hold on to the fact he didn't investigate something that had no only no merit but also that no witness they interviewed or video the viewed indicated the rumor had any credibility at all.

For God's sake there is still a moronic rumor they kid in Bangkok at the time was actually on the tisland. I am sure you want them to continue to pursue this rumor too since it is still a rumor despite them clearing the kid and confirming he was not on the island at the time.

JTJ: "Why would they investigate this when they interviewed people at the bar including friends who didn't see such a thing?"

Boomer: Umm, if some people didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps some people did see it. Unfortunately (for the investigative process) RTP only see what their superiors want them to see, and disregard everything which doesn't fit with that scenario. You would fit in quite will with Thai detectives, JTJ.

JTJ: "They police also testified that there was NOBODY on any of the video harassing her"

Boomer: What video? I thought RTP successfully stuffed any video which might incriminate the people they're trying to shield. I also thought the only video that night of Hannah was of her walking nonchalantly on the promenade. Do you know of other videos of her, or of any video shot in the AC bar? ....or of any video of AC bar entryway after David entered at 2 am (2.5 hrs before the crime)? If so, let us know.

JTJ: "For God's sake there is still a moronic rumor they kid in Bangkok at the time was actually on the tisland. I am sure you want them to continue to pursue this rumor too since it is still a rumor despite them clearing the kid and confirming he was not on the island at the time."

Boomer: 'moronic rumor'? Come on JTJ, you can do better than that. How about 'dastardly character assassination'? But seriously folks, there are the Running Man videos which prove he was on the island, and not only the first team of RTP detectives think it showed him. There's probably a lot of other evidence, but RTP and Mon are like Hans Brinker trying to stick a hundred fingers into the dike to stop leaks. They didn't stop Running Man videos (I bet they're pissed off about that), and my guess is there will be more proofs of NS not only being on the island Sunday night, but also his direct involvement in the crime.

[BlahBlah23]

Rule #1: Never investigate rumors. Because they might be true and then must be called "facts". 555

Rule #2: Never forget it is just a rumor..... if still unsure refer back to Rule #2

Bonez, perhaps you're trying to be cute, but rumors are a big part of what good detectives feed upon. In investigations, they call them leads. An adept detective is supposed to follow leads, and see whether they're worthwhile and substantiated. If not, they're dropped. Thai detectives work with different parameters. They're told by higher-ups what conclusion is demanded. Then it's up to Thai detectives to find the puzzle pieces, valid or not, to complete the puzzle - to please their higher ups. If they have to fake evidence, the will. Any leads which point at someone/something which higher ups don't want to see - are stuffed or misconstrued.

Fair point regarding rumours can be leads, that does make sense in most cases. Not sure if i can agree with how a Thai Detectives works, i suspect in some cases they are directed by more senior persons to give a particular result, and others not, but similar logic can no doubt be applied globally, but lets not argue the point.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Boomer,

I think "Planted" evidence would fall under "Contaminated". I didn't know you if you can "misrepresent" evidence in a court of law without risking being caught as a liar and surely risk Perjury charges. .

Never saw the word "All" anywhere in my post. Did you? What I do know is that the Crime Scene was never proven in court to be "Contaminated", "Compromised" or "Destroyed" even after the DNA Expert took the stand. If they can prove that later then fine. As pointed out many times here that my opinion means nothing, so there is no point in me expressing what I think.

The answer to your question why no news came out from this investigation since November goes back to a late October News Conference held by the Police. They said then that this will be the last one and that they will not discuss this case any further. The Prosecutor just recently said he is not allowed to discuss an ongoing case in the Investigation and Trial Period, when asked by a Reporter. .

I know it is disappointing to some but this is not TV or a Play we are all watching. The Criminal Justice Systems does not have to please their audience! They don't do this in your country, they don't do this in mine, and they don't do this here either. Seldom will they discuss any part of a case in all these countries. If you expected it to be different here, then you expected wrong.

[boomerangutang]

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

Why would they investigate this when they interviewed people at the bar including friends who didn't see such a thing? This is why it is rumor as NOBODY they have spoken to who was at the bar saw it. They police also testified that there was NOBODY on any of the video harassing her. The fact the cop said it was only rumor is something you cannot grasp, you want to hold on to the fact he didn't investigate something that had no only no merit but also that no witness they interviewed or video the viewed indicated the rumor had any credibility at all.

If your going to quote me then do so in context and not delete the other reference I gave, you missed out the quote where they said they were investigating the rumour!.............tut tut

JTJ and his buddies don't want a real investigation.

[glenmohr]

GOLDBUGGY states:-

Quote>You may or may not be who you say but this does not mean you know this case. How long have you been an Investigator in this case?

To back your statement just show me one Media Report who says this Crime Scene has been Contaminated!

I'm waiting!< End quote

Sorry if I've kept you waiting.

Let me suggest that you sit down, take a deep breath and I will explain, as simply as I can, what you seem to have difficulty in understanding but firstly you must ensure you thoughts are not affected in any way by any substances that are mind altering. It doesn't matter one iota if you cannot accept my qualifications and experience, that is you prerogative but at least I know where I am coming from, it is quite evident that you do not, it appears you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha. If you don't understand that, it means confused ok.

No matter what is pointed out to you, you are not willing to learn or accept anything unless it follows you train of thought. Can't you think logically or outside the square? Have you ever heard the saying that humans never stop learning, we will learn something new everyday, it is only a fool who does not.

I know only what I have read, heard and seen, does this not apply to yourself, or have you been observing a different case? I would say that given your question, it appears you are, or at the least you have your head stuck in the sand (No pun intended). What is your reason for continually asking childish, irrelevant and inane questions? I told you before I won't answer these because you well know that you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Now for your lesson. But don't worry, I will provide the answers, so you won't have to wrack your brain or look foolish if you fail.

1. The most important role when attending a crime scene is to protect the area. Why?

A. To keep the relevant evidence uncontaminated until it can be recorded and collected.

2. When does the protection of the scene begin and cease?

A. From the time of arrival of the first police officer and ends when police relinquish control of it.

3. Why is it necessary to protect the scene?

A. because a successful prosecution can hinge on the condition of the evidence at the time it is collected.

4. Provide the legal definition of contamination? A hint, do not refer to the dictionary definition.

A. Contamination is the introduction of something to a scene that was not previously there.

5. What did you see in the photographs of the crime scene at the time of Police initially attending and shortly thereafter?

A. Civilians, not involved in the investigation walking about the scene. later many, many spectators also roaming in and about the area.

6. Given what you have seen and learnt, would this be something introduced to the scene, which was previously not there? (multi choice answer, 1. Yes, 2. No, 3. maybe.)

A. 1, yes.

7. Was the clothing placed into a neat pile for photographic purposes, if this occurred what does this indicate?

A. it would indicate that someone has moved it, thus contamination arises and that the evidence was compromised.

8. Was the alleged murder weapon removed and then brought back to the scene?

A. According to police, yes, therefore again contaminated and compromised.

Hopefully this is sufficient for you to understand the situation but given your past responses, I doubt it. Now to answer you last question. I do not need a media report to adjudge that the crime scene was severely contaminated and comprised, I just have to fall back on my experience, see what has been presented by the media and use common sense, the latter unfortunately I can see is not very common.

If you still want to carry on in such an adverse manner, then feel free to do so but it will only highlight that you have no idea of what you are on about and that all you can do, instead of providing legitimate debate, is respond in a manner that shows you have little, if any knowledge of crime scene investigation or what the legal definitions of words are. it also highlights that you are unwilling to learn anything even when shown you still will not accept that someone else can be right,. I can be wrong, and have been on a number of occasions but I learn and try not to make the same mistakes again, something you should try to do.

Oh by the way, I sat and passed the detectives' exam in 1982 and was designated the same year. Can you tell me the year you sat for the TVF detectives' exam and if you were ever designated as a fully fledged armchair detective or did you fail? I think the latter, as you posts give a clear indication of this. Now off you go and if you have learnt something today, say thank you..

PMSL..... Well Ali G your owned... by a Pro. .. lol...

i would call that wiping the floor with you..

Hats of to you for enlightening poor Ali G. He needs help and understanding.

Errrr, that's assuming AleG and GOLDBUGGY are the same person - which they are not. They are of like mind though.

Sorry, but I am just trying to figure out what your point is to all this, and on what has all been said by you concerning DNA and how this has anything to do with me or what I said.

I never once claimed it was good that a Crime Scene is "Contaminated", "Compromised", or "Destroyed". I never once even said that the crime scene wan't "Compromised", although I was not their so I don't actually know for sure what happened.

But judging from your story and if what you say is true then I just have one simple question for you. Since it seems it is apparent and so far thought to be known that a lot of the Prosecutions Case rests on DNA Evidence, and I think it is a given that a lot of this evidence would have been collected from the Crime Scene, including the 2 bodies that were laying here, then here is my question.

How is it after (9 or is it 10) court appearances and this Crime Scene was "Contaminated", "Compromised" and "Destroyed", as you said, and thus all the the Evidence was "Contaminated" "Compromised" and "Destroyed", that the 2 Accused are still sitting in Prison, after 10 months, and are waiting to answer to these charges?

Actually there are 2 parts to the answer Mr GB.

1) This particular trial is being held in Thailand.

2) The 2 men in chains are Burmese.

[boomerangutang]

The POLICE are the ones that should be on trial for accessory to murder and providing false evidence

Disgusting

I wouldn't go as far as saying "providing false evidence".......

I would.

[GOLDBUGGY]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

They will not be set free while an appeals process is taking place. Bail has been denied at all stages so far. Unlikely to change. That's my understanding.

A Media Report suggested Bail was set back in October for 1 M Baht for the both of them.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/thai-court-rejects-bail-suspects-koh-tao-murder-case.html

[GOLDBUGGY]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

They will not be set free while an appeals process is taking place. Bail has been denied at all stages so far. Unlikely to change. That's my understanding.

A Media Report suggested Bail was set back in October for 1 M Baht for the both of them.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/thai-court-rejects-bail-suspects-koh-tao-murder-case.html

Edited July 31, 2015 by GOLDBUGGY

[boomerangutang]

Wonder what the posters on here think about what should happen next. It's clear that if the trial continues as is and if the B2 are found guilty despite what's been forthcoming or not in the trial that there will be a appeal. Even the Judge indicated as such last week on listening to the prosecution witnesses. Should be thrown out now, should it proceed till the end of the prosecution and then be called a mistrial or just left to take its course and be open to appeal and ridicule. I'm sure there will be conversations taking place at a high level in the establishment in Thailand as to damage imitation but not sure what there angle will be . Which ever side of the fence you sit on you would have to agree that nothing shown in court by the prosecution up to now has indicated any possible guilt by the B2 but I am not saying for one minute that they might not be guilty or involved in some way. I have my own opinion on the matter and happy to offer it but that's all it is from looking at it objectively from a distance. However as stated with all the failed procedures by the investigating police it's clear this is only going way. I suppose it is possible that if there found not guilty the police would not appeal but it absolutely sure that if found guilty the defense will. This perfect case is clear not to be so and with everything else going on against Thailand at the moment they really could do without this additional embarrassment . Just putting this out there to see what more knowledgable people then me think ?

Clearly, it's too early to say, but the judge gave an indication that the case won't be resolved at this court. Whether a change of mind occurs, will depend on next month's evidence, IMO.

I'm not putting my house on the line, but what western opinion might be in relation to ineptitude, misdirection et al, the Thais will carry on in their own way, however ridiculous it might appear to non-Thais. And that's not to bash them, it's how it's been going on for decades.

I do think the defence have information and the clout to counter the prosecution's case - more so since Andy Hall is seeking legal counsel from the UK. he wouldn't be doing that if the defence case was weak or was unable to refute the prosecution's.

More important to RTP + Headman + Mon + Nomsod + prosecution is keeping the spotlight off any of the Headman's people. Everything else is secondary, including 'face' and/or whether the B2 are found guilty or let out the back door without two satang in compensation.

NS did not refuse to give his DNA because he was never ask for it. Understand That! He was never asked for it! He was cleared on his Alibi alone. He gave his DNA on a Volunteer basis only.

I know you're not directing your missive at me, but I'll respond anyway:

If NS was not asked for DNA material early on, when he was a prime suspect, then he should have been asked. Not doing so, was a dereliction of duty by detectives. It's far more plausible that he was asked for DNA and, because he's from a rich family and his mom is bosom buddies with his high-priced lawyer, he knew he could refuse to do so. He very likely did refuse, and that only fanned the suppositions that he was a perp in the crime. GB, what are you basing your name-calling insistance that 'NS was never asked' on?

His alibi was as solid as a piece of tissue sitting overnight in a toilet bowl. He only gave his DNA later on, because many people kept pointing fingers at him as being one of the perps. If you recall, he did it (while saying nothing) surrounded by his daddy, his high-priced lawyer and the chief cop who put himself in charge when the investigation wasn't moving fast enough to implicate scapegoats. Also, we find out recently that a head investigator claimed in court that he never saw the results (essentially saying he doubts NS's DNA results were compared to anything, if they were even typed at all) ....AND he doesn't know where NS's results are or if they can be found. So even the top investigative cop is in the twilight zone about the NS's press event and whatever it signified.

I used to think the RTP was involved with all sorts of nefarious manipulations behind the scenes to keep NS shielded. Now I don't think they expended that many calories. All they need to do is have top brass stand in front of a mic and declare whatever he wants, and all the teeming millions of sheeple can do is go along with his BS. Who's going to go in to the lab and verify what's been announced? You? Me? a reporter? a lab techie? a corporal seeking truth? ha ha, no one is going to tangibly counter the top cop, unless they want to lose a job or an untimely demise.

[AleG]

GOLDBUGGY, you use the word 'all'. I don't think anyone said ALL the evidence has been contaminated/compromised/destroyed. Plus you didn't use the words 'misrepresented' or 'planted', but again some evidence has been subject to those words, and some not. Please try not to paint the online detective work (the work that RTP should have been doing) in such simplistic all-or-nothing language. There is still some evidence which was not contaminated or mis-read or altered, though we'll probably have to wait for the defense's case to find out what that is.

Here's a Q: What has RTP done since November 2014, to try and move the investigation along? Granted, we don't know everything they do, but still, in 9 months, has there been any announcement of anything (pertaining to the investigation) from RTP? Has any of the court proceedings indicated anything's been done? Are there any RTP officers supposedly working to uncover the truth of the crime? They've all been getting salaries for the past 9 months? ....but for doing what? If I fry one egg, I've done more than all RTP officials working on this case have done for the past 9 months. Prove me wrong, if you can.

Rule #1: Never investigate rumors. Because they might be true and then must be called "facts". 555

Rule #2: Never forget it is just a rumor..... if still unsure refer back to Rule #2

Bonez, perhaps you're trying to be cute, but rumors are a big part of what good detectives feed upon. In investigations, they call them leads. An adept detective is supposed to follow leads, and see whether they're worthwhile and substantiated. If not, they're dropped. Thai detectives work with different parameters. They're told by higher-ups what conclusion is demanded. Then it's up to Thai detectives to find the puzzle pieces, valid or not, to complete the puzzle - to please their higher ups. If they have to fake evidence, the will. Any leads which point at someone/something which higher ups don't want to see - are stuffed or misconstrued.

Your argument that there must be a cover up because the police have not continued investigating after the suspects have been arrested and indicted it's probably one of the most absurd and illogical things said regarding this case, and that's saying a lot.

No police anywhere in the world will continue to look for culprits after they hand those they have uncovered to the judicial system, if they would have done that you'd be jumping up and down claiming that proves there's the men on trial are innocent.

You want your cake and eat it too, and can't figure out what the problem is with that.

[GOLDBUGGY]

When the judge gives his verdict on the b2 either the defence or prosecution can apply to the appeals court for a ruling. They can accept or reject the application. If accepted and a ruling is obtained the case can be referred to the supreme court for a final decision. It could take years.

What normally happens should your example happen. As regards keeping the B2 in custody or not.

Would that depend on the result ie not guilty lets out on bail or guilty would keep them in custody till appeal. Or is there no generalisation? Knowing Thailand it's on a whim!

They will not be set free while an appeals process is taking place. Bail has been denied at all stages so far. Unlikely to change. That's my understanding.

A Media Report suggested Bail was set back in October for 1 M Baht for the both of them.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/thai-court-rejects-bail-suspects-koh-tao-murder-case.html

A Media Report in November said it was changed and Bail was refused.

Can't Link that one.

[glenmohr]

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

Why would they investigate this when they interviewed people at the bar including friends who didn't see such a thing? This is why it is rumor as NOBODY they have spoken to who was at the bar saw it. They police also testified that there was NOBODY on any of the video harassing her. The fact the cop said it was only rumor is something you cannot grasp, you want to hold on to the fact he didn't investigate something that had no only no merit but also that no witness they interviewed or video the viewed indicated the rumor had any credibility at all.

For God's sake there is still a moronic rumor they kid in Bangkok at the time was actually on the tisland. I am sure you want them to continue to pursue this rumor too since it is still a rumor despite them clearing the kid and confirming he was not on the island at the time.

You have to be joking ... with all the BS internet rumors they have wasted their time with, they should spend more time chasing down things that have no credible basis and escape any plausibility.

Is " they kid" you refer to young Nomsod, JTJ?

I stand corrected if you prove me wrong but I read somewhere that " they kid" was in BKK on the 13th and again on the 15th. Is there any evidence that " They kid' was in BKK on 14th which was very close to the date and time of the murders. I understand that until more video can be doctored there is no current evidence of him being in BKK on 14th.

My motive in coming to this forum is to try and promote the old fashioned idea of justice. Please remind us what your motive is, I seem to have forgotten. What is your relationship with the Head man's family?

[boomerangutang]

Boomer,

I think "Planted" evidence would fall under "Contaminated". I didn't know you if you can "misrepresent" evidence in a court of law without risking being caught as a liar and surely risk Perjury charges. .

Never saw the word "All" anywhere in my post. Did you? What I do know is that the Crime Scene was never proven in court to be "Contaminated", "Compromised" or "Destroyed" even after the DNA Expert took the stand. If they can prove that later then fine. As pointed out many times here that my opinion means nothing, so there is no point in me expressing what I think.

GB: "Never saw the word "All" anywhere in my post. Did you?"

GB's earlier post: (which Boomer referred to): "How is it after (9 or is it 10) court appearances and this Crime Scene was "Contaminated", "Compromised" and "Destroyed", as you said, and thus all the the Evidence was "Contaminated" "Compromised" and "Destroyed", ......"

GB asserts: " I didn't know you if you can "misrepresent" evidence in a court of law without risking being caught as a liar and surely risk Perjury charges. "

Boomer responds: I think we'll find out, sooner or later (probably later) that there are worse things than 'perjury charges' waiting at the end of the tunnel for RTP investigators and their handlers.

[boomerangutang]

GOLDBUGGY, you use the word 'all'. I don't think anyone said ALL the evidence has been contaminated/compromised/destroyed. Plus you didn't use the words 'misrepresented' or 'planted', but again some evidence has been subject to those words, and some not. Please try not to paint the online detective work (the work that RTP should have been doing) in such simplistic all-or-nothing language. There is still some evidence which was not contaminated or mis-read or altered, though we'll probably have to wait for the defense's case to find out what that is.

Here's a Q: What has RTP done since November 2014, to try and move the investigation along? Granted, we don't know everything they do, but still, in 9 months, has there been any announcement of anything (pertaining to the investigation) from RTP? Has any of the court proceedings indicated anything's been done? Are there any RTP officers supposedly working to uncover the truth of the crime? They've all been getting salaries for the past 9 months? ....but for doing what? If I fry one egg, I've done more than all RTP officials working on this case have done for the past 9 months. Prove me wrong, if you can.

Rule #1: Never investigate rumors. Because they might be true and then must be called "facts". 555

Rule #2: Never forget it is just a rumor..... if still unsure refer back to Rule #2

Bonez, perhaps you're trying to be cute, but rumors are a big part of what good detectives feed upon. In investigations, they call them leads. An adept detective is supposed to follow leads, and see whether they're worthwhile and substantiated. If not, they're dropped. Thai detectives work with different parameters. They're told by higher-ups what conclusion is demanded. Then it's up to Thai detectives to find the puzzle pieces, valid or not, to complete the puzzle - to please their higher ups. If they have to fake evidence, the will. Any leads which point at someone/something which higher ups don't want to see - are stuffed or misconstrued.

Your argument that there must be a cover up because the police have not continued investigating after the suspects have been arrested and indicted it's probably one of the most absurd and illogical things said regarding this case, and that's saying a lot.

No police anywhere in the world will continue to look for culprits after they hand those they have uncovered to the judicial system, if they would have done that you'd be jumping up and down claiming that proves there's the men on trial are innocent.

You want your cake and eat it too, and can't figure out what the problem is with that.

AleG, if you think the investigation should terminate once scapegoats suspects are put in prison with not bail, then we don't agree. I think the investigation should be on-going. In countries like the US, France and UK, where investigative sciences are miles ahead of Thailand's, investigators sometimes even dust-off crime files that are years old, in order to see whether all avenues were investigated thoroughly, and whether the right people are incarcerated. Granted, it couldn't happen in Thailand, but there's hope that Thai investigators will learn how to do their jobs in at least a semi-professional capacity - .....in the future perhaps?