Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[JohnThailandJohn]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

[phuketandsee]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

I am going against a promise I made to myself to ignore you and fellow apologists.

You may have a point in that my statement #2 is "absolutely untrue". Let me correct it then . Most of us do not trust anything the RTP say. And IMHO that probably goes for the majority of the Thai population. In fact I think it is only you and a couple of other fellow travelers seem to believe them.

Now. I hope to go back to controlling myself and ignoring you.

[Linky]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

Your problem, which you stated, is that the court has ordered it re tested. Sadly though only a couple of things can be re tested as other things have been lost or finished.

[stephenterry]

Re 2460 post -JTJ. Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue.

This statement is both untrue and misleading. The key DNA evidence, which includes the samples found on the female victim, have either been 'lost' or finished' according to the police statement at the court. However, the DNA result reports are intact, but as there are no underlying samples to re-test, then the reports cannot be substantiated/verified/validated. As Andy Hall, states, this undermines the prosecution's case. Whether the court would be prepared to accept the reports without any substantiation, is another story.

Is that clear?

"It is not lost," national police chief Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Pol Gen Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

He said the local police investigator, Lt Col Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Lt Col Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Pol Gen Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

Then why can't the defence test the samples? because they don't exist. You really ought to keep abreast of matters.

As has been reported for the last 6 days that the judge just ordered all the evidence be sent to the Justice Ministry's Central Institute of Forensic Science to be retested in line with a defence request.

Must we really continue to play this game of what has been widely reported vs what you want to pretend has not?

Read my amended post 2478. I would reason it contradicts and updates your statement to the reality.

[Linky]

Well you have unwittingly just given a reason to dispute the dna results.

The police had already cleared him. So after they had cleared him do you really think they would then say the dna matched and he was to be charged? What a huge loss of face.

Then you should use common sense, something you seem to lack. Why did the police refuse to make public the dna result? Do they really think their word is good enough?

If there was nothing to hide they should have provided the results when requested instead of just having staged a nice show.

Thats what anyone with common sense would consider very strange.

I'm sure you dont though.

Well, if it was me who committed this crime, and I was cleared as a suspect and did not have to provide DNA, like Nomsod, let me tell you this honestly.

That the very last bloody thing I would even think on doing is now go to the Police and tell them I wanted my DNA Tested, and like Nomsod did do..

And yet you talk to me about using some common sense here???

I certainly would if the test was pre determined, or not even done at all because police refused to allow anyone to see it.

I would put good money on the result of that test, if in fact it was done, to now being lost.

[BoristheBlade]

The RTP would not even take care when one of there own was slain i.e the Red Bull case

So what chance do two young foreigners have?

ZERO and that applies to all the Ex Pats living in Thailand....be warned

[JohnThailandJohn]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

Your problem, which you stated, is that the court has ordered it re tested. Sadly though only a couple of things can be re tested as other things have been lost or finished.

Thailand’s top police official insisted Friday that crucial DNA evidence linking two Burmese migrants to the murders of British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge has not been lost.

"It is not lost," national police chief Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Pol Gen Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

He said the local police investigator, Lt Col Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Lt Col Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Pol Gen Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

[Nigeone]

You may have a point in that my statement #2 is "absolutely untrue". Let me correct it then . Most of us do not trust anything the RTP say. And IMHO that probably goes for the majority of the Thai population. In fact I think it is only you and a couple of other fellow travelers seem to believe them.

Now. I hope to go back to controlling myself and ignoring you.

I'm with you too. This whole subject makes me so angry and sad. I put myself in the place of Hannah being my daughter and how would I feel. Of David been a brother who I had grown up with looked up too...and seeing them go like they did in the most horrific crime imaginable. And the parents having to go through the court case and see the pictures of there loved ones. So so sad. I can't imagine how the family must feel and that's why I get involved on here even though I know I shouldn't. Justice needs to be done and seen to be done. I hope and pray it will be I really do. Do I think it will. Well if the good people,on here have anything to do with it along with so many others it will be but I sometimes don't hold out much hope.I love Thailand but can't love the system and the people benefitting from it. I'm out of here till 22 nd. Good luck to all you good people trying to fight for justice.Respect.

[Gweiloman]

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

Your problem, which you stated, is that the court has ordered it re tested. Sadly though only a couple of things can be re tested as other things have been lost or finished.

Conveniently for some, the items available for retesting cannot prove anything conclusive. A shoe? A sock? So what? The hoe? If washed, no further DNA retrieval possible. Such "evidence" may be compelling to an uneducated, ignorant and uninterested populace - which is usually all that the RTP have to deal with.

[JohnThailandJohn]

This whole subject makes me so angry and sad. I put myself in the place of Hannah being my daughter and how would I feel. Of David been a brother who I had grown up with looked up too...and seeing them go like they did in the most horrific crime imaginable. And the parents having to go through the court case and see the pictures of there loved ones. So so sad. I can't imagine how the family must feel and that's why I get involved on here even though I know I shouldn't. Justice needs to be done and seen to be done. I hope and pray it will be I really do. Do I think it will. Well if the good people,on here have anything to do with it along with so many others it will be but I sometimes don't hold out much hope.I love Thailand but can't love the system and the people benefitting from it. I'm out of here till 22 nd. Good luck to all you good people trying to fight for justice.Respect.

If you really care about the victim's family and don't know how they feel then I suggest you examine their own words and consider too what they say about those coming up with speculative BS to defend the two on trial for murdering their kids.

The victims' families said they had seen strong evidence against the suspects and expressed confidence in the case.

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement.

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

On Friday the family of Miller criticised "increasing sensationalism of this story" and said that "speculation" should be suspended until all evidence is made public.

"The support for the Myanmar suspects has been strong and vocal, but please do not jump to conclusions until you have considered the evidence from both sides in full," Miller’s family said.

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit," Witheridge's family said.

[BritTim]

Thailand’s top police official insisted Friday that crucial DNA evidence linking two Burmese migrants to the murders of British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge has not been lost.

"It is not lost," national police chief Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Pol Gen Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

He said the local police investigator, Lt Col Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Lt Col Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Pol Gen Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

So, as usual, we are left wondering which of the police statements made within hours of each other on an important subject, we are supposed to believe. Do not tell us that you believe the bull about bad translation of the testimony given in court, or expanded clarification afterwards. We simply have two completely different versions. Anyway, the defense has stated that they have been told no DNA retesting will be possible, and I have not seen that contradicted. Or, perhaps you think the defense changed their mind.

[Linky]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

Your problem, which you stated, is that the court has ordered it re tested. Sadly though only a couple of things can be re tested as other things have been lost or finished.

Thailands top police official insisted Friday that crucial DNA evidence linking two Burmese migrants to the murders of British backpackers David Miller and Hannah Witheridge has not been lost.

"It is not lost," national police chief Somyot Poompanmoung told reporters in Bangkok. "I repeat: Nothing is lost."

Pol Gen Somyot called it a misunderstanding that stemmed from foreign media covering the case who might have poor Thai language skills.

He said the local police investigator, Lt Col Somsak Nurod, was vague in his testimony and therefore was misinterpreted. Lt Col Somsak was no longer in possession of the DNA evidence since he collected it and then sent it to the Forensics Medicine Institute in Bangkok, Pol Gen Somyot said.

"Nothing is missing. It's a misunderstanding," the police chief said.

Fantastic you admit the police lied under oath to the court. Oh say it isnt so ?

The fact remains that very important items are not available to be re tested.

[smedly]

So you base their innocents on that their is no DNA left for further testing?

Well then, you had better let out the +95% Convicted Murders in your country because they never had their DNA Evidence done twice either. While you are at that, maybe protested against the Prosecution Team in your country for not assisting the the Defense in making their case. In my country the Prosecution tries to provide evidence in court that the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt. They do not try to prove that the accused are innocent.

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

You sir have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, may I suggest you do a little research before posting or look back to a post I made several pages back that clearly explains what you obviously don't understand, you also don't seem to have a grasp of how criminal proceeding work - why we have procedures and protocols - who is actually taking the action against an accused - who has the burden of proof - and why a defence team exists and what roll they are playing in the proceedings - all fundamental stuff which raises a huge question mark about you and your motives posting here.

Just because you claim that defence rarely retest DNA does not mean that there are not strict protocols that must be followed, if they are not followed it would result in the DNA evidence being excluded or the whole case thrown out of court, may I also add that if the defence gains access to DNA evidence (as they should) and does retest it - it is up to them whether or not to submit those retests to the court - pretty obvious they would only do it if it helped the defence case, also you are forgetting the fundamentals of a criminal court trial, the accused is innocent until proven guilty - it is up to the prosecution to form a case that will convict not the defence. a concept you don't seem to have grasped

[balo]

Forget the CCTV images for now - is there actual witness proof or other photographic proof that Nomsod (Freshmilk) was on the island at the time?

None whatsover. Only rumours and the poor reporting by journalists that led to speculations if he was there that night or not. And a poor cctv image that could have been of anyone in that age group.

Also the DNA testing started too late so that did not help Nomsod even if he is proven innocent.

All we know is that some asian guys did this to Hannah and David and so far no other suspects than B2.

[Gweiloman]

DNA testing that leaves no portion of the original sample for retesting is quite rare. In any country with a half functional legal system, if such testing is contemplated, a careful procedure must be followed, including independent witnesses and photographic record of the testing. In my country, DNA evidence often clears suspects because samples are not lost or used up.

Not sure where you are from but it is HIGHLY unusual for defense to retest dna in criminal cases in the US. It is a bone head move because of the reliability of DNA and if there own test comes back showing it matches then it puts the defense in the corner and loses their credibility if they try to say it was planted. If it was planted then no reason to test it and if the police planted it then the evidence they give the defense will also be planted. Most vast majority of cases with DNA evidence will result in the defending making a plea deal while those who fight the case will try to show how contamination could account for the client DNA being present or claim a police frame up.

Although I am sure it may have happened but I have never heard of a case anywhere in the state had lab reports showing DNA against the accused only to have the defense retest it and have it not match.

As a side note, the discovery laws in the US also don't provide the defense with access to retest evidence. A motion has to be made and a judge has to grant permission for this to happen. Discovery only allows the defense to visually inspect evidence, not take it or handle it or test it without permission from the court

I would imagine that it is highly unusual for a defense team to retest DNA in the US BECAUSE it is HIGHLY likely that DNA collection, testing etc would be done in accordance with very strict and universally accepted procedures. The underlying premise is that (in the UK, US, Europe, Australia etc etc), DNA evidence is almost certainly true and able to withstand rigorous questioning. Thus if the prosecution (in these parts of the world) states that DNA evidence proves the case against the accused, the defense team will not try to challenge it.

However, in case you have forgotten, we are talking about Thailand. The same standards do not apply here.

[Gweiloman]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget that in the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that? Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

[catsanddogs]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

DNA was not independently verified as required by international protocol. Crime scene was compromised and not sterile at any time. Unqualified personnel collected the DNA. Shall I go on. In a credible jurisdiction the DNA is utterly and totally worthless. Collecting of DNA samples should be carried with sterile gloves which should be discarded after each sample to stop cross contamination ..Did you see the pictures of the young RTP guys collecting multiple samples without changing gloves. Members of the public freely moved around th crime scene and persons moved David and the murder weapon. How much proof do you defenders of RTP need to blow the case out of the water.

Not just members of the public freely moving around - also one of the original suspects. The one who said it was himself in the CCTV of 'running man'??? The one who also had another British woman (the aspiring journalist) die somewhat mysteriously in his hotel. The one who according so Sean McAnna encouraged him to hang himself. Seen here assisting the police so it seems.

[catsanddogs]

The next day court day, the 22nd, may be a more appropriate time to get back to it.

Then why keep posting JTJ? Oh I forgot, someone has to stand up for the most suspicious characters on that island.

[Gweiloman]

Forget the CCTV images for now - is there actual witness proof or other photographic proof that Nomsod (Freshmilk) was on the island at the time?

None whatsover. Only rumours and the poor reporting by journalists that led to speculations if he was there that night or not. And a poor cctv image that could have been of anyone in that age group.

Also the DNA testing started too late so that did not help Nomsod even if he is proven innocent.

All we know is that some asian guys did this to Hannah and David and so far no other suspects than B2.

Absolute codswallop.

K. Panya himself stated that CCTV evidence proved that NS was there. The allegations were subsequently withdrawn, for reasons that most of us believe. Only a handful of posters would believe that the police made an identification error and thus cleared these initial suspects.

[JohnThailandJohn]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget that in the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that? Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

[stephenterry]

This whole subject makes me so angry and sad. I put myself in the place of Hannah being my daughter and how would I feel. Of David been a brother who I had grown up with looked up too...and seeing them go like they did in the most horrific crime imaginable. And the parents having to go through the court case and see the pictures of there loved ones. So so sad. I can't imagine how the family must feel and that's why I get involved on here even though I know I shouldn't. Justice needs to be done and seen to be done. I hope and pray it will be I really do. Do I think it will. Well if the good people,on here have anything to do with it along with so many others it will be but I sometimes don't hold out much hope.I love Thailand but can't love the system and the people benefitting from it. I'm out of here till 22 nd. Good luck to all you good people trying to fight for justice.Respect.

If you really care about the victim's family and don't know how they feel then I suggest you examine their own words and consider too what they say about those coming up with speculative BS to defend the two on trial for murdering their kids.

The victims' families said they had seen strong evidence against the suspects and expressed confidence in the case.

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement.

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

On Friday the family of Miller criticised "increasing sensationalism of this story" and said that "speculation" should be suspended until all evidence is made public.

"The support for the Myanmar suspects has been strong and vocal, but please do not jump to conclusions until you have considered the evidence from both sides in full," Miller’s family said.

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

"We would like to thank the officers who travelled to Thailand to review the case and the Royal Thai Police for facilitating their visit," Witheridge's family said.

I wonder if the families still feel the same after having to endure the first 3 days of the trial? A reality check, I would surmise. I'm positive that had the B2 been guilty, as intimated, all the relevant DNA samples would have been provided for retesting. The fact that they aren't, as confirmed by the defence two days after the police spokesman said they were available, speaks volumes about deflective misdirection.

IMO, they are available except that there's no way they're going to be released to the defence. Let's see what happens on the 22nd.

[Gweiloman]

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

I don't recall reading anywhere that any lab has confirmed that the B2's semen was in the victim. Even if there is such a report, the results will always be open to question as it is no longer able to be independently verified due to it being lost used up.

Just imagine, two teaspoons full of semen used up in a few simple DNA tests................

[BoristheBlade]

Where the two accused Burmese not DNA tested in the first few days of the investigation along with many foreign workers on Koh Tao?

If so, where are the DNA results from this test?

If so why did the results not give a match like the alleged test many weeks later?

[BritTim]

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

John, you yourself have pointed out that they had an earlier suspect with the victims' blood on his clothing. If they were umm... mistaken about that blood, why not the semen? (Yes, I do know they did not stick to the blood story for long. He was a lousy potential scapegoat.)

[catsanddogs]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget that in the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that? Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

Even that is possible the way things have gone and are going. Police said Hannah was raped, then she wasn't, then she was, then they weren't sure. No doubt they are desperately trying to get their new script perfect for the 22nd which should prove entertaining and depressing.

[thailandchilli]

Then why can't the defence test the samples? because they don't exist. You really ought to keep abreast of matters.

As has been reported for the last 6 days that the judge just ordered all the evidence be sent to the Justice Ministry's Central Institute of Forensic Science to be retested in line with a defence request.

Must we really continue to play this game of what has been widely reported vs what you want to pretend has not?

Your the one playing games JTJ, macabre games that show your true colours. We all know your opinions on the Burmese race as a whole from your previous posts, quite disturbing in themselves and now despite all the credible reports you are still trying to deny the fact that no DNA exists from the samples taken from Hannah, even the judge (after the statement from the police chief) has stated this but because you appear to have your own agenda you seem to overlook that also. Get a grip man you've lost the plot completely.

[stephenterry]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget that in the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that? Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA

Only you seem to be forgetting the police accused a lot of people in the beginning (inlcuding a friend of the victim who they say they found blood on his clothes) and said a lot of other things that turned out to be incorrect. You also seem to be forgetting the fact, which has been repeated numerous times and linked to on these threads, that the the move in command was planned and announced prior to the murders and took place on the exact date they said it would prior to the move.

As for the rest of your post, it too is nonsense and it gets old correcting such nonsense as it will just be deflected and ignored so it can be repeated again and again.

Yes, the police had lots of suspects in the early days, even claiming to have "strong" evidence. They subsequently cleared these suspects and you are happy to accept their word that they mistakenly fingered these suspects. Why is it that you don't think it's possible that the RTP could have also made mistakes in accusing the B2?

Like mistakenly having the lab confirm their semen was in the victim?

Have you seen the lab report? Have you seen the RTP's report? Has any of it been substantiated or verified or validated? No, it's just your opinion, based on what the police have said. If and when the defence have challenged, contested, and possibly provided their own case to cast reasonable doubt on the prosecution's, I suggest your opinion remains contentious.

We will see.

[balo]

JTJ and GOLDBUGGY, conveniently seem to forget a few things:

In the ORIGINAL investigation, the head police honcho CLEARLY STATED that they had "strong evidence" that linked both Mon and Namsod to the crime. Remember that?

Then, out of nowhere, said police was quickly yanked from the investigation, given a promotion and shifted to a desk in BKK, and another police big wig was appointed, and IMMEDIATELY cleared the original 2 suspects.

The police were flatly denied the cctv videos from the bar of the night in question.

Mon was supposedly in BKK at university for serious exams, but questions reveal that he didn't even show up for those exams. Now, why is that?

Mon and Namson flatly refused to take DNA test for weeks, before finally agreeing to, but on THEIR conditions. And, surprisingly, their results were back in 4 HOURS, which is impossible to do.

In earlier reports there were also comments from some of his school chums that when he did report to class, they saw multiple scratches (like those from a fight) on his arms.

There's more, but these two individuals (JTJ & GB) are either so ignorant to accept facts, or have serious "connections" to K.T., that they will deny anything and everything that in any way viably connects Mon, Namsod, and the Big Cheese on the island to these horrendous murders, but will wholeheartedly swallow any pill of unverifiable circumstantial and bull crap evidence against the B2.

As already been stated earlier , it is possible to do a DNA test in 4 hours . There are several ways to do this. hwww.bbc.com/news/science-environment-10873706

We do not know what kind of testing they use at the DNA labs in Bangkok.

Do you want to test Nomsod again ? But you don't trust DNA labs in Thailand right ? It's all a conspiracy to you. Thailand against the rest of the world.

Nomsod do not deserve any more attention now , try to find the real killers instead.

Maybe you can try google and see what the latest gossip is on social media.

[Thesticle]

One thing that leads people to dispute the current findings is that the majority of people have no faith in the RTP. Is this unfair? Not in my opinion they have form for corruption so it's only fair to question the findings. The people who disagree with the " conspiracy theorists" base their arguments on the information given by the RTP and regard their word as gospel. So on one side you have people grasping at strawsfor the truth and the other parroting the official line that the majority do not believe. Something is definatly fishy in this case. Will we ever find out truth? I doubt it.

[Tony121]

Remember the lady who said she cleaned blood of sean the night of the murder ?, then there was the video of him leaving the island with blood on the guitar ? they said they tested it and it wasn't his, do you think there is a chance he went home cleaned the victims blood of his guitar and then put his blood on it as an alibi ? why would you be on the run because the local mafia are going to frame you for murder with a blood stained guitar ?