Israeli government clashes with liberal Jewish streams

[webfact]

Israeli government clashes with liberal Jewish streams
By TIA GOLDENBERG

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel's narrow coalition government, propped up by two ultra-religious parties, is butting heads with liberal streams of Judaism that dominate Jewish life in the United States — widening a rift that risks further alienating American Jews at a time of growing U.S.-Israel estrangement.

The dispute is forcing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu into a delicate balancing act in which he must at once please American Jews and placate the Orthodox members of his government. American Jews comprise the world's second largest Jewish community and have provided a source of unconditional moral support, lobbying and fundraising for decades.

While most observant American Jews identify with the Reform and Conservative movements, Israeli religious affairs are dominated by stricter Orthodox law.

Israel's Orthodox rabbinical establishment wields a monopoly over key aspects of daily life, such as marriage, divorce, burials and circumcisions. Reform and Conservative rabbis are not recognized, and their movements are largely marginalized. Most Jews in Israel, while secular, follow Orthodox traditions.

These long-simmering tensions between the world's two-largest Jewish communities have been aggravated by a series of steps by religious elements in Netanyahu's coalition government meant to halt attempts by the liberal streams to win recognition in Israel.

"Israel does not meet the standards of religious freedom and pluralism that one should expect of a Western democracy. And the fact is that American Jews have simply lost patience with the second-class status of liberal Judaism in Israel," Rabbi Eric H. Yoffie, the former head of the Reform movement, wrote in the Israeli daily Haaretz. He listed "week after week of religious crises" in Israel.

The current religious-nationalist government earlier this month canceled reforms meant to ease conversion to Judaism, unraveling painstaking efforts by the previous government to weaken the grip of Israel's Orthodox establishment. That was followed by inflammatory rhetoric from the Cabinet minister responsible for religious affairs, disparaging Reform Jews.

Netanyahu is in a tenuous situation. His narrow coalition is bound together by two ultra-Orthodox factions who can bring down the government if Netanyahu pursues policies not to their liking.

At the same time, American Jews are growing increasingly frustrated with Israel's policies. A major survey on American Jews by the Pew Research Center from 2013 showed they are still strongly attached to Israel, but that connection wanes with younger Jews and with Jews who don't identify with a particular Jewish denomination.

The Reform and Conservative movements have demanded greater recognition in Israel for their practices, most prominently at Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox led Western Wall, the holiest site where Jews can pray. And they complain of discrimination, recently accusing Israel's president of canceling a Conservative bar mitzvah ceremony at his residence to placate Orthodox opposition. President Reuven Rivlin's office said it wasn't his place to decide "a war of religions."

There were signs of change in Netanyahu's previous coalition government, in which ultra-Orthodox parties were in the opposition. Progressive parties stripped away some of the entitlements ultra-Orthodox parties had previously legislated, and after much political wrangling, a bill was passed weeks before the government was dissolved that would allow municipal rabbis to hold special conversion courts, potentially opening the door for liberal rabbis to help perform conversions.

The bill sought to smooth the conversion path for some 350,000 people, many immigrants from the former Soviet Union who have Jewish ancestry but who face difficulty marrying in Israel or receiving Jewish burials. The Reform and Conservative Judaism movements had hoped the bill could chip away at the Orthodox monopoly, even if it wasn't as far-reaching as they might have wished.

But after the elections in March, with the new government formed, the bill, along with other challenges to the ultra-Orthodox community, including changes to military service, appeared to be doomed.

Tzipi Livni, an opposition lawmaker whose party tabled the conversion bill, said its scrapping could further alienate American Jews.

"Even though there are different streams, we are part of one people and I believe that this is the message that the Israeli government — any Israeli government — should send to the American Jewry," Livni told The Associated Press.

Adding fuel to the fire, the country's Religious Affairs Minister, David Azoulay, has publicly blasted Reform Jews, recently telling Israel's Army Radio that he doesn't consider them to be Jewish.

"A Reform Jew, from the moment he stops following Jewish law, let's say this is a problem. I cannot allow myself to say that he is a Jew," he said. He later dialed back his comments, saying he was concerned about assimilation and that he would pray for all Jews "to return" to the faith.

Netanyahu has quickly distanced himself from what he called Azoulay's "hurtful" comments, saying they don't reflect the government's position. He said he reminded Azoulay that Israel is a home "for all Jews."

Netanyahu has also recently called for "roundtable discussions" between his Cabinet secretary, the Jewish Agency, which acts as a link to the Jewish world, and leaders of the liberal streams in Israel.

The talks would allow the liberal streams to voice their grievances and perhaps "hasten" some bureaucratic logjams that could lead to greater equality, like access to state funding or land for institutions, said Natan Sharansky, the chairman of the Jewish Agency. He said the discussions were a way for Netanyahu to make progress on the issue, albeit incrementally, outside the constraints of his government partners.

Meanwhile, in an apparent conciliatory gesture, President Rivlin is set to host a study session this week with representatives from various Jewish streams that will focus on Jewish unity.

Yedidia Stern, a vice president at the Israel Democracy Institute, a think-tank, said that Netanyahu is left with little room to maneuver, like many before him, in the face of the political power of the ultra-Orthodox. Stern said Netanyahu should fire Azoulay "immediately," to make real amends with Reform Jews, but doing so would put his coalition at risk.

"Diaspora Jews are a central strategic front for the state of Israel," Stern said. "What the Israeli government is doing is to slap them in the face over and over and over again."


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-22

[Jingthing]

This is inside baseball.

It's an issue for Jews.

I don't know why non-Jews would care.

Yes there is a great divide between the experience and attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews.

Sometimes they don't really have anything to talk about.

Here is an interesting article about this.

Again, not sure why non-Jews would be interested.

Should Jews be flattered that so many people are interested in their internal conflicts?

I reckon Kurds have divides too ... don't hear about that.

http://forward.com/opinion/spirituality/312124/why-identity-anxiety-runs-so-deep-among-american-jews/

“ If the nervousness of American Jews saddens me, the bravado of the Israeli scares me ”

About the reform Judaism movement in Israel. Huge among American Jews. Tiny among Israeli Jews:

http://forward.com/news/312116/reform-in-israel-but-are-they-real-jews/

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[JingerBen]

Codewords are being used here.

The religious and cultural issues involve the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in Israel and the rest of the world.

[Jingthing]

Codewords are being used here.

The religious and cultural issues involve the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in Israel and the rest of the world.

There is no secret.

The vast majority of American Jews are Ashkenazi.

A solid majority (60 percent?) of Israeli Jews are Mizrahim (middle east / North African backgrounds).

But you seem to be suggesting something simplistic that isn't actually true.

Large portions of Ashkenazi are ultra religious.

Large portions of Mizrahim are secular.

In my view, to more conservative religious Jews reform Jews are seen like Unitarians are seen by more religious Christians.

May as well be atheists they're so liberal!

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[kamahele]

This is inside baseball.

It's an issue for Jews.

I don't know why non-Jews would care.

Yes there is a great divide between the experience and attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews.

Sometimes they don't really have anything to talk about.

Here is an interesting article about this.

Again, not sure why non-Jews would be interested.

Should Jews be flattered that so many people are interested in their internal conflicts?

I reckon Kurds have divides too ... don't hear about that.

http://forward.com/opinion/spirituality/312124/why-identity-anxiety-runs-so-deep-among-american-jews/

“ If the nervousness of American Jews saddens me, the bravado of the Israeli scares me ”

About the reform Judaism movement in Israel. Huge among American Jews. Tiny among Israeli Jews:

http://forward.com/news/312116/reform-in-israel-but-are-they-real-jews/

This is tremendously important information for the world actually as it affects our policies in the middle east. It gives back ground on who is running the show in Israel

[Neurath]

I guess it's of interest to others because the debate between the ultra conservative and the not so conservative has consequences Israeli governmentality and hence policy. Same goes for the debate between broadly secular/cultural Muslims and their ultra conservative wing.

[Publicus]

The rational and mainstream discourse has begun.

We see the mutual affinity between the evangelical Christian right god extremists in the Republican party of the USA with the severe Jewish orthodox religious and political right in Israel. In between are the USA Jewish community that is primarily Conservative or Reform in its Jewish religious beliefs, principally Reform.

PM Benjamin Netanyahu has since the mid-1990s been making the rounds of the US evangelical Christian right leaving them standing on their church basement chairs cheering and applauding the PM (who is now effectively a Republican party US Senator from Israel).

History necessarily makes this a sensitive topic.

The establishment elites of Western civilization have had a long history, recently moderated to varying extents, of a great prejudice and discrimination against the Jewish people (also blacks, women, gays in the USA) that had easily filtered down to the general population (or equally up from).

The shameful and often sinful prejudice and discrimination against all Jewish people does continue. However, there are people who can from any perspective discuss these matters rationally and with a fair mind.

I myself actively oppose right wing extremism in all forms wherever it may exist, and it is all over the place in this context. Opposing right wing extremism of all kinds includes moderating equally between the one and only true god stuff of the dead-ender ME Muslims and the ethnocentric chosen people stuff of the other side, or wherever state sponsored political-religious extremism may exist.

[wwest5829]

This is inside baseball.

It's an issue for Jews.

I don't know why non-Jews would care.

Yes there is a great divide between the experience and attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews.

Sometimes they don't really have anything to talk about.

Here is an interesting article about this.

Again, not sure why non-Jews would be interested.

Should Jews be flattered that so many people are interested in their internal conflicts?

I reckon Kurds have divides too ... don't hear about that.

http://forward.com/opinion/spirituality/312124/why-identity-anxiety-runs-so-deep-among-american-jews/

If the nervousness of American Jews saddens me, the bravado of the Israeli scares me

About the reform Judaism movement in Israel. Huge among American Jews. Tiny among Israeli Jews:

http://forward.com/news/312116/reform-in-israel-but-are-they-real-jews/

Hmm, perhaps it is a cultural thing but what happens between the U.S. And Israel can have affects on many who are non Jews. I say, perhaps it is a cultural thing, as a retired history prof here in Thailand my interests continue to be wide ranging. What happens to refugees concerns me as a human being, China's unilateral claim to sovereignty over 80% of the South China Sea concerns me....in fact, there are too many concerns to list. Thus it is from my cultural perspective, what happens to other human being is my concern....ha! Or you can just denounce another American sticking their nose in other peoples business. In the light of full disclosure, I also have deep interests in all things involving the U.S. And I recognize both positive and negative involvement.

[awayego]

What is perhaps more pertinent and of international interest, although not mentioned here, is the growing divide between Zionists (whose avowed aim is to create and maintain the state of Israel) and anti-Zionist Jews (comprising multivarious Jewish groups who believe that the very existence of the state of Israel is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah and the fundamental tenets of Judaism).

It would appear that liberal and 'progressive' Jews throughout the world, but particularly in the USA, are growing in numbers, as is their influence which is counter to the traditional, orthodox and principally right-wing establishment traditionally so supportive of the state of Israel. They are growing in number because, inter alia, of more widespread and open debate brought about by, not least of all, the internet and a growth in more enlightened and lateral thinking.

There are now many who are sympathetic to the views of organisations such as Neturai Karta International (Jews united against Zionism) and of Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss at the United Association for Studies and Research Studies (UASR) who said "Friends, there will be no peace in the Middle East until there is no state of Israel".

Even the great majority of Palestinians, so long branded as anti-Jewish, are, in fact, no such thing - they are anti-Zionist and have traditionally, before the violent creation of the state of Israel, lived amicably and at peace with Jews. There is, in fact, an ongoing and very healthy dialogue between Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews.

One can only hope that that dialogue continues, flourishes and eventually gains the support of the vast majority of Jews such that a peaceful and lasting settlement can be found in the Middle East. However, as long as Israel is governed by the likes of a Netanyahu government, sustained and funded by it's American/Republican supporters, that seems a very long way off.

[Jingthing]

That's a total crock of anti-Zionist propaganda. The vast majority of global Jews certainly over 90 percent support the right of Israel to exist. There is no growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist.

It is true that there is a trend among younger American Jews to feel less personally connected to Israel but that's not the same thing as opposing Israel's right to exist.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[awayego]

That's a total crock of anti-Zionist propaganda. The vast majority of global Jews certainly over 90 percent support the right of Israel to exist. There is no growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist.

It is true that there is a trend among younger American Jews to feel less personally connected to Israel but that's not the same thing as opposing Israel's right to exist.

Of course it's propoganda! What are all the belligerent and bellicose utterances from Netanyahu and his American supporters but propoganda,eg on the Iran Nuclear Agreement? Is peace ever likely in the face of that propoganda? It is just that sort of propoganda that fuels

anti-Western, as well,as anti-Jewish sentiment and sends so many to join the likes of ISIL.

I agree that the overwhelming number of Jews wish the state of Israel to continue, now that it already exists, and they always will (although I'mnot sure where your 90% comes from).

To suggest that the state of Israel will one day not exist is just silly.

Its existence is a fact of life in the Middle East, just as the Palestinian claim to statehood is a fact of life. Israel showed the way in violently

creating itself, although the difference then was that Zionists were riding on a wave of international sympathy following the Holocaust and the world let it happen, not thinking of the consequences. And now Zionists condemn Palestinians for claiming the same right!

What I neglected to say, and should have made clear, is that a growing anti-Zionist movement and the continuing existence

of the state of Israel are NOT mutually exclusive.

Rather, the anti-Zionist movement could have a very positive influence in moderating right-wing orthodox politics to the extent

that relations with the Palestinians will improve and the peace process will have a real chance of success.

There can be no future for either in 'Mutually Assured Destruction' which seems to be the inevitable outcome if there is no dialogue,

no recognition of each other's right to exist and ultimately no peace process or resolution of the conflict.

[DeaconJohn]

That's a total crock of anti-Zionist propaganda. The vast majority of global Jews certainly over 90 percent support the right of Israel to exist. There is no growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist.

It is true that there is a trend among younger American Jews to feel less personally connected to Israel but that's not the same thing as opposing Israel's right to exist.

There may not be a growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist, but there is certainly a growing movement of Jews opposed to the war crimes and policies that are isolating Israel internationally.

[Jingthing]

That's a total crock of anti-Zionist propaganda. The vast majority of global Jews certainly over 90 percent support the right of Israel to exist. There is no growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist.

It is true that there is a trend among younger American Jews to feel less personally connected to Israel but that's not the same thing as opposing Israel's right to exist.

There may not be a growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist, but there is certainly a growing movement of Jews opposed to the war crimes and policies that are isolating Israel internationally.

Alleged war crimes and I notice ... predictably ... you fail to mention the alleged war crimes on the Palestinian side. Does the unbalanced OBSESSIVE Israeli demonization ever take a holiday?

Of course, yes OBVIOUSLY supporting the right of Israel to exist is NOT the same thing as supporting every single action of the Israeli government, past / present / future. DUH.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[Lissos]

Even the great majority of Palestinians, so long branded as anti-Jewish, are, in fact, no such thing - they are anti-Zionist and have traditionally, before the violent creation of the state of Israel, lived amicably and at peace with Jews.

With Jews as 2nd class citizens exoected to know their Dhimmi status under Islamic domination.

I suspect you overlooked that crucial point, intentionally.

Jews in the Levant and North Africa didn't enjoy cuddly equality, the bulk of them were expected to accept an inferior categorisation imposed by Islamic dominance. Amicable? I guess that if a pet dog who remains loyal to its owner in order to be fed, even after beatings with a stick whenever the owner is having a bad day, is an amicable situation to you, then ok.

There is, in fact, an ongoing and very healthy dialogue between Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews

Of course, because without a Jewish homeland, Jews become tolerated 'guests' under Islamic domination all over again, just the way that Muslims felt comfortable having Jews as, since Muhammad's earliest military campaigns.

The inconvenient fact of the history between these two peoples is that Muslims only feel comfortable with defeated and weak Jews, and will not tolerate Jews in their vicinity who are determining their own destiny.

[Jingthing]

Israel is a middle eastern country.

Being ultra liberal may work very well in Berkeley California.

But it doesn't work so well when you're Jews surrounded by Arab and Muslim countries on all sides, except the sea, which BTW plenty of Palestinians DO want to push the Jews into and some of their leaders have said as much clearly many times.

[stevenl]

That's a total crock of anti-Zionist propaganda. The vast majority of global Jews certainly over 90 percent support the right of Israel to exist. There is no growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist.

It is true that there is a trend among younger American Jews to feel less personally connected to Israel but that's not the same thing as opposing Israel's right to exist.

There may not be a growing movement of Jews opposing the right of Israel to exist, but there is certainly a growing movement of Jews opposed to the war crimes and policies that are isolating Israel internationally.

Alleged war crimes and I notice ... predictably ... you fail to mention the alleged war crimes on the Palestinian side. Does the unbalanced OBSESSIVE Israeli demonization ever take a holiday?

Of course, yes OBVIOUSLY supporting the right of Israel to exist is NOT the same thing as supporting every single action of the Israeli government, past / present / future. DUH.

This is about Israel and Jewish division. You can attempt to throw the Palestinians in, but weren't you the one desperately trying to keep everybody else out of this?

[Jingthing]

Not fair. You can't accuse Israel of "war crimes" without the context of how that "war" came to be.

Also, you twisted what I said before.

I wondered why non-Jews would be interested in the inside baseball of reform Judaism in the USA vs. Israel which after all is a religious matter.

But as usual in any Israel and/or Jewish related topic, the Israeli demonization obsessives want to make it about the same old thing ... how horrible a country they think Israel is, "coincidentally" the one and only majority Jewish nation on the planet.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[DeaconJohn]

Even the great majority of Palestinians, so long branded as anti-Jewish, are, in fact, no such thing - they are anti-Zionist and have traditionally, before the violent creation of the state of Israel, lived amicably and at peace with Jews.

With Jews as 2nd class citizens exoected to know their Dhimmi status under Islamic domination.

I suspect you overlooked that crucial point, intentionally.

Jews in the Levant and North Africa didn't enjoy cuddly equality, the bulk of them were expected to accept an inferior categorisation imposed by Islamic dominance. Amicable? I guess that if a pet dog who remains loyal to its owner in order to be fed, even after beatings with a stick whenever the owner is having a bad day, is an amicable situation to you, then ok.

There is, in fact, an ongoing and very healthy dialogue between Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews

Of course, because without a Jewish homeland, Jews become tolerated 'guests' under Islamic domination all over again, just the way that Muslims felt comfortable having Jews as, since Muhammad's earliest military campaigns.

The inconvenient fact of the history between these two peoples is that Muslims only feel comfortable with defeated and weak Jews, and will not tolerate Jews in their vicinity who are determining their own destiny.

You're quite wrong.

Jews in Moorish Spain prospered like they had never done before. Their arts flourished, especially literature. By any reckoning it was the high point of Jewish culture. It's been downhill ever since.

[Jingthing]

Moorish Spain ... I think not too relevant for today's Middle East. Certainly not on topic to REFORM JUDAISM which did not exist then.

Next ...

[Inn Between]

This is inside baseball.

It's an issue for Jews.

I don't know why non-Jews would care.

Yes there is a great divide between the experience and attitudes of American Jews and Israeli Jews.

Sometimes they don't really have anything to talk about.

Here is an interesting article about this.

Again, not sure why non-Jews would be interested.

Should Jews be flattered that so many people are interested in their internal conflicts?

I reckon Kurds have divides too ... don't hear about that.

http://forward.com/opinion/spirituality/312124/why-identity-anxiety-runs-so-deep-among-american-jews/

“ If the nervousness of American Jews saddens me, the bravado of the Israeli scares me ”

About the reform Judaism movement in Israel. Huge among American Jews. Tiny among Israeli Jews:

http://forward.com/news/312116/reform-in-israel-but-are-they-real-jews/

I think Israel Is seen by many people as a very dangerous nation that has shown an attitude bordering on loathing and disregard for its neighbours. If America decides that Israel has reached the point of becoming such a rogue nation that it really can't continue to support it anymore, a very tense situation would exist. Would America have to impose the same safeguards and sanctions with Israel as it does for Iran?

I think it's very appropriate and wise of people to keep an eye on the actions of Israel as its fate could have a great global impact. You can't actually be serious in saying that non-Jews shouldn't be concerned with relations between America and Israel.

[Jingthing]

No, I'm saying I find it kind of weird why non-Jews would be interested in a very INTERNAL matter as to the status of different Jewish RELIGIOUS movements, some of which are popular among American Jews and not popular among Israeli Jews. Do I care about intramural conflicts among Southern Baptists? Not a chance!

I did grow up as a secular and/or "Reform" American Jew. We were always aware at least back then that the Jewish religious movement we were associated with was NOT recognized as legit in Israel It did not stop support among American reform Jews for the right of Israel to exist one little bit. I think the idea was that recognition from Israel was something to work on but really there wasn't any urgency about that feeling or even a feeling that it even needed to happen EVER for the reform movement to be meaningful to the American Jews following it. So to me, this is very interesting. To non-Jews ... I don't really believe the interest is usually really sincere. I think many people just want to spin anything about Jews and/or Israel into their obsessive Israeli demonization agenda. Might as well have ONE TOPIC -- Jews and Israel because it doesn't seem to really matter what the ACTUAL topic is if there is ANY connection.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[ABCer]

When I hear Sephardic and Ashkenazi or Sabra, Mizrahi, etc. - I am really at a loss. The reason is - I'm not Israeli.

But when I hear Liberal - I know what does it mean.

Internet sources often say Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and many others were Jews.

I wonder what kind of Jews they were?

[Jingthing]

When I hear Sephardic and Ashkenazi or Sabra, Mizrahi, etc. - I am really at a loss. The reason is - I'm not Israeli.

But when I hear Liberal - I know what does it mean.

Internet sources often say Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and many others were Jews.

I wonder what kind of Jews they were?

Reform Judaism is a modern liberal interpretation of Judaism like Unitarianism is a modern liberal interpretation of Christianity.

I think you're confusing politics with the topic which is mostly about different Jewish RELIGIOUS movements between the USA and Israel.

Those communists you mentioned weren't religious Jews... and I think going there is just an inflammatory off topic diversion.

Their historically consequential political activities were not related to Jewish religious dogma OR any kind of secular Zionist agenda, so they may as well have been Hindus.

Israel is a democracy but does include some Jewish theocratic aspects especially around controversial areas of marriage, immigration, and Jewish conversion.

The USA obviously doesn't have any explicit theocratic aspects except for the general perception that it is a Christian dominated nation, which it is.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[Lissos]

You're quite wrong.

Jews in Moorish Spain prospered like they had never done before. Their arts flourished, especially literature. By any reckoning it was the high point of Jewish culture. It's been downhill ever since.

Blooming flowers in a contained pot, does not an open meadow make (I just made that up, btw). In Islamic Doctrine, Non Muslims were (and are) officially categorised as inferiors and were expected to know it and live it in public life under domination by Islam (the gardener, who can deny sustenance at any time). If you read my post again, I said the 'bulk' as I knew somebody would cherry pick certain periods of al Andalus (as they always do) from a vast Islamic expanse and history under which non Muslims were categorised as inferior tolerated peoples under Islamic dominion.

Massacres of Jews late in Andalus history by people who in their eyes saw themselves as 'truly' Islamic, was a fury that the Jews had either sneakily manouevered into positions far above their 'station' or been handed such roles by 'decadent' and 'lapsed' rulers, so they set about correcting this 'wrong' in the way ISIS would. Certain phases of al Andalus cannot be used as a diversion tactic away from the bulk of history of Jewish dhimmitude comprising the vast expanse of history of Islamic domination, because it is rather like saying Jakarta is an example of Islamic doctrine in practice.

Nobody disputes that Iberian Jews perceived Muslims as the better of two oppresive options. Mode wealth and creativity under your new self appointed 'owner' doesn't void the reality that in Islamic doctrine Jews and others are categorised as an inferior and tolerated people who (in application for the vast bulk of Islam's history) quite literally had to pay Muslims regularly for that very toleration and protection, a state of affairs which is a world away from how propagandists tend to spin history about the Pre Israel relationship between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that part of the world.

If I now feel no threat from someone different from me because I belong to a group who dominate and by ideology and legislation declare this person serf who pays tribute then yeah sure I'll be 'amicable' to him because I'm told he is my inferior. I may trade with him, he may paint beautiful works and study but if he annoys me for any reason all I need to do is run to the authorities, make up a story to have this S.O.B and his family burned out of town. 'That', I maintain, was the reality of this Pre Israel middle east, romantically looked back upon. The Muslims are nostalgic for those days.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Lissos

[Lissos]

I met two Israeli Girls in Bangkok recently, one of whom had a Scandnavian boyfriend. The position from the Scandinavian was predictable, coming from a region infested with Anti Zionist media no doubted amplified by being home to a considerable population of Muslim migrants who after decades of immigration are now calling the shotsnin Scandinavia. Overall he was an ok guy but it was tiresome listening to his stance which was constant reference to bias YouTube documentaries. Probing only a tad it was clear this guy's knowledge of the history surrounding this conflict was virtually non existent. One of the Girls taught Hebrew to Bedouin as part of her national service. The other had worked in military intelligence. She seemed quite practical in that sense but seemed obliged to take on aspects of her Boyfriend's view point, no doubt being bludgeoned by it day after day as if she should atone. At one stage I asked a simple genuine question that did she think it was possible for Israel to relax its vigilance while maintaining its security. "Er, well let's not get into politics now" was the answer. Infact, we all spent the next 30 minutes or more on the politics, but this crucial question was essentially dodged perhaps because to ponder it is troublesome. Both the Girls were very open minded and absorbed a lot of criticism from uber lefty Boyfriend, without complaint nor pretending Israel was entirely innocent. However, the question was still dodged.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed. Please re-read the OP and stay on topic.

[stevenl]

I met two Israeli Girls in Bangkok recently, one of whom had a Scandnavian boyfriend. The position from the Scandinavian was predictable, coming from a region infested with Anti Zionist media no doubted amplified by being home to a considerable population of Muslim migrants who after decades of immigration are now calling the shotsnin Scandinavia. Overall he was an ok guy but it was tiresome listening to his stance which was constant reference to bias YouTube documentaries. Probing only a tad it was clear this guy's knowledge of the history surrounding this conflict was virtually non existent. One of the Girls taught Hebrew to Bedouin as part of her national service. The other had worked in military intelligence. She seemed quite practical in that sense but seemed obliged to take on aspects of her Boyfriend's view point, no doubt being bludgeoned by it day after day as if she should atone. At one stage I asked a simple genuine question that did she think it was possible for Israel to relax its vigilance while maintaining its security. "Er, well let's not get into politics now" was the answer. Infact, we all spent the next 30 minutes or more on the politics, but this crucial question was essentially dodged perhaps because to ponder it is troublesome. Both the Girls were very open minded and absorbed a lot of criticism from uber lefty Boyfriend, without complaint nor pretending Israel was entirely innocent. However, the question was still dodged.

Ah, got it. Your thoughts are genuine, people who think differently are infiltrated by the anti zionist media and muslim immigrants.

[Lissos]

Well yes, they are. If the claim is that the U.S and Britain is 'infested' with Pro Zionist narrative (as the claim so often is) then the opposite is the case with certain parts of Europe. Everyone I meet from Scandinavia (an area I like in many ways, btw) seems to have the same predictable angry view about Israel, often having little to no knowledge of the long history which has contributed to why things are the way they are now (a crucial pre-requisite). In other words they rant on about the symptoms but don't seem to study up on the causes. Either that is a cultural naivety on the part nof Scandinavians as they are so far removed from many issues, or their thinking on this issue is heavily influenced by domestic media and political leanings and I don't think the huge variety of Muslim immigrants from all over the Muslim world they've invited in for decades will not be a factor in the overall leaning of the population today. Yes, Scandinavians on the who!e seem to think differently on many issues. I have no problem with that.

[ABCer]

I met two Israeli Girls in Bangkok recently, one of whom had a Scandnavian boyfriend. The position from the Scandinavian was predictable, coming from a region infested with Anti Zionist media no doubted amplified by being home to a considerable population of Muslim migrants who after decades of immigration are now calling the shotsnin Scandinavia. Overall he was an ok guy but it was tiresome listening to his stance which was constant reference to bias YouTube documentaries. Probing only a tad it was clear this guy's knowledge of the history surrounding this conflict was virtually non existent. One of the Girls taught Hebrew to Bedouin as part of her national service. The other had worked in military intelligence. She seemed quite practical in that sense but seemed obliged to take on aspects of her Boyfriend's view point, no doubt being bludgeoned by it day after day as if she should atone. At one stage I asked a simple genuine question that did she think it was possible for Israel to relax its vigilance while maintaining its security. "Er, well let's not get into politics now" was the answer. Infact, we all spent the next 30 minutes or more on the politics, but this crucial question was essentially dodged perhaps because to ponder it is troublesome. Both the Girls were very open minded and absorbed a lot of criticism from uber lefty Boyfriend, without complaint nor pretending Israel was entirely innocent. However, the question was still dodged.

Hi, Lissos. Having read your touching story about "uber lefty Scandinavian Boyfriend" and his Israeli girlfriend "who had worked in military intelligence... but... seemed obliged to take on aspects of her Boyfriend's viewpoint... being bludgeoned by it day after day..." I am afraid I smell a rat.

By no means I am trying to say you are telling fibs. I think there are reasons to believe you were told fibs.

I have met quite a few Scandinavians. True, most of them sound brainwashed, anti-Zionist, anti-Israel and very Politically Correct. It usually is puzzling on one hand yet understandable on the other.

Puzzling it is given their geopolitical remoteness from the scene of action and generally dull conforming nature.

Understandable it is given their all accepting political stand towards their Gov't, being used to live in a basically Socialist State and putting up with Muslim's lawlessness in Scandinavia.

Now, an Israeli young girl, independent, of strong character (Military Intelligence background?) taking so much crap from the narrow minded Scandinavian is somewhat problematic. Next to unbelievable.

Unless there are ulterior motives involved...