Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[Shermanator]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted <deleted> posing with the hoe then?

[AleG]

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

As you are quite aware your comments have been found to be inaccurate. Why continue to present B/S?

Because my "comments have been found to be inaccurate" by people like you who simply resort to saying "that's not true" and provide nothing to substantiate their dismissal.

I provided two citations to support what I said, so yes, I'll take that as having more weight than your say so.

[Madaussie]

UPDATE REGARDING THE WITHERIDGES

They are not in the court. This is false reporting from the Samui newspaper.

I have a friend inside the court so I know the truth as I spoke to them on the break.

[Rykbanlor]

Thats the guy,

[Shermanator]

I had assumed all along that DNA typing was only available to RTP and (later on) prosecutors. However, Headman family/friends' shielders had often written, in these T.Visa threads that essentially everyone had direct access to the DNA typing cards. I distinctly recall JohnThailandJohn posting several times that DNA typing (in this case) was sent to specialists and labs in many places, within and outside of Thailand. I had always doubted that, and now we have proof that's not true. In sum: it backs up my (and many others') assertions that all this talk by RTP for the past 11 months about 'B2 DNA matching and Nomsod's not matching' was/is completely the off-the-cuff blabberings of top brass police - directing how they want the scenario to play out.

I dearly hope, if it's proven that top brass RTP have intentionally misrepresented key data, that they're disciplined to the full extent. No warnings, no pats on the back, no assignments to inactive post BS .....but real unmitigated criminal proceedings. In a less corrupt country, people who are paid and trusted to uphold the law are given more severe sentences than regular people who break the same sorts of laws.

Correct! The DNA "evidence" blahblah in the end was just hot air. As soon as this has been made a fact in court, you can stop fighting those RTP believer guys as they will be lying in their beds, sobbing and suckling on their thumbs, because all they had to hold on to was the DNA babble. Oh yeah - let the good times roll See your avatar all over this case looking back into older posts. Keep up the spirit, Boomerangutan - great work!!!!

[Rykbanlor]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted F posing with the hoe then?

Another of their homies no doubt, it really says something about what sensitive souls they are.

[Madaussie]

Press release

Mr Miller and Miss Witheridge did not know each other before they met by chance in Koh Tao as they were each holidaying with friends. The two were murdered on a stretch of beach next to some rocks between the final bar they visited and the nearby waterfront bungalows where they were staying separately with those friends.

A wooden hoe used by the bar cleaner to sweep the beach was allegedly the murder weapon. But the item was moved at least twice the next morning and no DNA from it has been introduced as evidence.

During the trial, prosecution witnesses have acknowledged that the defendants were not provided with legal representation during interrogation or the re-enactment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11838501/Suspect-in-British-backpacker-murder-trial-describes-police-torture.html

[mmh8]

is everyone convinced that the recent bombings weren't meant to detract international attention from this case?

or general incompetance, loss of evidence, lack of credible story for the case just par for the course here?

myself I thought the slam dunk bit by the police claiming we deserve the reward money cos we solved the case without anyhelp from anyone was the final bit of distraction.

just a thought you know?

[Madaussie]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted F posing with the hoe then?

The Hoe Man Is Sean McAnnas friend.

[boomerangutang]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking: What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

You're probably right. Ms Pontip will certainly address that isse. However, I for one don't want the DNA trail to be deemed completely bolloxed. I hold a quixotic hope that when the B2 are acquitted, that the original prime suspects will be hauled in to court. I admit the chances of that are about 2%, but if that were to happen, DNA would be crucial to that process.

.... if the B2 are guilty I want to see them locked behind bars for a long time. If the court can't prove they are guilty we are back to square one.

And what would "Square One" be? To me, 'square one' connotes going back to the crime scene to try and start all over again, as if the crime just happened and we don't know anything - as if we're starting with a clean slate. But we're not. We (concerned public and RTP and objective investigators) already know quite a bit. At the least, we know where to look, if there are any more clues. Example: look at flight manifests/video to Bkk for that morning. Look at ALL phone activity. Thoroughly search Mon's room, where he does laundry, and same for AC bar tough guys, Mon's cop friend, and Nomsod. If you ask me, it would be about 'Square Fifty' rather than 'Square One.' Sorry if I sound a bit frazzled, but this 'ignoring the 900 pound gorilla in the middle of the room' mentality has been dominating proceedings for nearly a year. It's frustrating, and it's far beyond RTP doing their jobs badly. It's RTP (and forensics and prosecution) purposefully skewing evidence. It stinks, and we're all (well, most us) smelling it.

[edwinchester]

Not trying to be smarter than the rest but just asking:

What is the value of any DNA evidence and retesting if "no proper conditions were observed and recorded in obtaining the samples"?

DNA test results may be basis for conviction only if there is "no way it can be concocted at collection point".

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Regards the semen. A possible scenario is that it does not belong the either of the Burmese and has been matched to a sample that is mislabled as belonging to either of the Burmese. This of course relies on the conspiracy theory.

[partington]

Yes, if "no proper conditions were observed and recording the samples" then it can be seen how that would affect the validity of the results.

Your second point, I'm still waiting to hear how semen from the men on trial would had been planted inside the body of one of the victims, AKA evidence "concocted at the collection point".

It's all fine and dandy to throw around baseless speculation... why, no it is not in a case like this, but I digress. It's another to actually construct a credible, substantiated argument to explain things.

The later is hard and I can see why some people would rather give up, declare the truth is what they want to believe anyway and be done with it.

Such a terrrible pity that all that DNA was 'all used up' so nobody can actually verify, examine, restest or question the results of that sample ......

(it's like a kindergarden excuse only not as believable. Typical samples retrieved from rape victims are usually sufficient for several thousand tests. You just can't make this stuff up. You'd need to have the mental agility of a 2 year old to believe this story as told.)

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

From your own quote ......

'On Thursday, police forensic expert Kewalee Chanpan told a court on Samui island, site of the trial, that all genetic material tested in a lab was replicated and saved, but that it deteriorated over time.'

I'll need to invoke the knowledge of the posters here who are more familiar with DNA testing ......

but to me this 'wasn't used up' thing has morphed into plan B which stinks as much.

'Genetic material was replicated' - IMO directly from Star Trek. What is this replication that you speak of?

and

'but that it deteriorated over time' casually makes DNA out to be like yoghurt that has a best before date.

Is this forensic expert for real?

Are you comfortable with this explanation AleG?

Perhaps I am misinformed about this whole DNA thing ... somebody please help me.

"Replicated" is too vague to be interpretable in this context, especially when being discussed by, and reported by non-technical personnel. It could mean at least two things and maybe more.

In all reputable forensic labs, once DNA is isolated from the biological sample, a portion is kept in case it is needed for retesting. At its simplest this would mean dividing the sample in half, testing one portion and keeping the rest in a freezer.

This would always be done except when there is so little DNA it must all be used up during testing. To only have this little would be unlikely, as only around 1 nanogram (ng - a billionth of a gram) is needed for a single profile run and, though multiple runs are always necessary, there would usually be enough from rape kit samples to keep many ng of the original DNA in reserve. This would be a "replicate" sample in one sense.

Pure isolated DNA when stored in a freezer under conditions known to all forensic DNA labs keeps indefinitely, for decades.

The second meaning of replication could refer to the basis of the method used to derive a DNA profile, called PCR. Each 1 ng DNA sample you are testing, (this equals a single run) is mixed with a kit solution which contains a set of fluorescent dyes, small pieces of DNA (primer) and an enzyme. By heating and cooling this solution around 25-30 times 15 areas of the DNA are replicated, that is their mass is actually multiplied in the tube thosands of fold from the original sample.

At the end you have 15 multiplied fragments labelled with dye that are run on a machine that detects the size of the fragments. This gives 15 pairs of numbers that comprises a unique profile.

Not all this sample is used for detection on the machine and it can be run through again if necessary without repeating the entire PCR. But although stable for many weeks when frozen , this PCR reaction does go off because of loss of dye stability and so on. If they are referring to these as the "replicated" samples it is possible that they could degrade to the point of being unreadable.

But if they were forced into the position of having to use these old reactions this would mean that they only had a minute amount of DNA to start with, only a few ng, so didn't have enough to run the PCR again from the infinitely stable pure DNA starting sample, which would present zero technical problems (I have done PCRs from 10 year old human DNA with my own hands).

This would argue a disastrously bad sample collection or extremely low levels of touch DNA- you would not expect such problems from a rape kit sample.

[catsanddogs]

The cleaner who allegedly first discovered the bodies was not available to testify for the prosecution because she was out of the country.

The two friends (of the B2) who were allegedly involved in handling the alleged phone of David's were not available to testify because they are out of the country.

Maung Maung who is captured on CCTV wearing what appears to be Win's tee shirt in the early hours of the morning of the murders and who was held in a 'safehouse' by the RTP and stated that the B2 were asleep when he returned home is allegedly out of the country.

[T_Dog]

Press release

Mr Miller and Miss Witheridge did not know each other before they met by chance in Koh Tao as they were each holidaying with friends. The two were murdered on a stretch of beach next to some rocks between the final bar they visited and the nearby waterfront bungalows where they were staying separately with those friends.

A wooden hoe used by the bar cleaner to sweep the beach was allegedly the murder weapon. But the item was moved at least twice the next morning and no DNA from it has been introduced as evidence.

During the trial, prosecution witnesses have acknowledged that the defendants were not provided with legal representation during interrogation or the re-enactment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11838501/Suspect-in-British-backpacker-murder-trial-describes-police-torture.html

That article is just hours old and thanks for posting that.

[Madaussie]

The way I see it 100,000+ people asked for verification of the DNA nearly 1 year ago. They presented a petition, which I signed as well to Number 10. They agreed to verify it and sent office but changed the remit. The RTP could have verified it in Singapore as was going to be the case and they didn't.

Now they rely on DNA un verified for no purpose what so ever. they could have had it signed of by outside credible agencys as Ok and they didn't... Why not?? well ask yourselves that question honestly. Even the Koh Tao Shills and Flamers.

There's not a single good reason why you would keep it in-house in an environment of distrust. The key to this case was transparency. Dumping documents in the last 30 mins of a trial by the prosecution loosing evidence. conflicting statements where do I stop. Only goes to reinforce the conspiring theories.

[petedk]

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family

Is that true? I didn't think they had attended?

Well, this is pretty well how the Media has reported this case from day one.

One day reported the Family is not here and is not coming. The next day they are reported sitting in the Court Room.

The Samui Times is not known for its accuracy. 2 or the Miller family are in court but no one from the Hannah's side

Sky news reported that on day one, Hannah's parents saw the graphic images of Hannah's body and after that they didn't go to the court again.

It is quite possible that other members of the family are there.

[catsanddogs]

Why didn't Amnesty have the authority to push for action when action was needed! The RTP refused to meet with authorities on three occasions to discuss alleged torture.

Zaw Lin then told the court in Koh Samui, Thailand, today that the men asked him some questions through a translator before stripping him naked in an air conditioned room and putting a plastic bag tightly over his head.

“I bit through the bag to be able to breathe so they put another bag on top of that one and the translator asked me: “Did you kill?” When I said “No”, they put another bag over my head and pulled it tight around my neck.

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/i_was_tortured_to_confess_murdering_hannah_witheridge_accused_tells_court_today_1_4216927

[stephenterry]

The samples were made available for the defense to retest, they refused.

Cite:

“The court said that lawyers are free to request all the DNA samples for independent DNA testing at any time,” Nakhon told Reuters, adding that a forensic expert testified that DNA swabs from the crime scene had been duplicated in a laboratory, so samples were still available."

And cite:

"The defence team in the Koh Tao murder trial has dramatically reversed its demands to retest the DNA found on the body of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and said they “don’t need it any more.”

Now let's see who is the next one to pretend not to know this and repeat the meme that all the DNA was used up...

As you are quite aware your comments have been found to be inaccurate. Why continue to present B/S?

Because my "comments have been found to be inaccurate" by people like you who simply resort to saying "that's not true" and provide nothing to substantiate their dismissal.

I provided two citations to support what I said, so yes, I'll take that as having more weight than your say so.

You're deluded,sunshine. Your so called citations have been proven to be inaccurate.

[Shermanator]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted F posing with the hoe then?

The Hoe Man Is Sean McAnnas friend.

sean and hoe man.png

Shan's friend? That's some sick s__t, man!!!!

[joebrown]

i think the prosecution won

Sounds like you are reporting the full-time result at a football match when it's only half-time. Please tell everyone why you have come to that conclusion. If you can't, I suggest you take more water with your ear medicine..

[Madaussie]

Daily Mail Press Release 30 minutes ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219592/Bar-worker-claims-admitted-murdering-two-British-backpackers-tortured-police-tied-plastic-bags-head-collapsed.html

A Burmese man who was with the two accused, known as Mao Mao, has not been asked to testify and although the Prosecution took a statement from him they have admitted that they do not know where Mao Mao now is.

The trial is continuing

[IslandLover]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

I really do hope that's it not predetermined already.

That's the core of the issue here Madaussie,

We witnessed an obvious scapegoating developing withing days of the murders and, somehow, came together on this forum, and others, to try and derail what was rapidly becoming a steamrollering of two innocent Burmese towards the "gallows".

It was obvious, to those of us,with a reasonable amount of Thai experience, what was happening so we started to rise our voices in dissent and defense of the B2.

Had this not occurred, it seems obvious that these two hapless scapegoats would have been found guilty (as the RTP and other interested parties intended) and could well be history by now.

I believe this is the first time in history that the arrogant, unprofessional and visibly corrupt practices of the RTP supporting the equally corrupt patriarchal system has been exposed to this much scrutiny. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, IMO, that we have the level of visibility of this trial now.

What needs to come under the microscope next, after - presumably, hopefully and rightfully - the B2 are found innocent, are the actions of the RTP, other players and here, on TVF, why certain members lunged to protect certain persons, establishments and, probably,their own little parochial interests.

I have certain info on some of the so-called "apologists and shills" and will undoubtedly reveal these if I see them trying to derail the defense's revelations. They are clearly working to an agenda and if I have to reveal some information (all available in the public domain, by the way, if you care to really look), then I will.

<snip>

@saminoz - I think you have set out exactly how most of us here really feel - on all points . Well done.

[boomerangutang]

Good video, summing up the investigation cockups:

Yes, Good video. Should be required viewing for anyone interested in this case.

i think the prosecution won

Is that a joke post? If so, not funny. Don't try getting a gig as a stand-up comedian.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted craphead posing with the hoe then?

IslandLover knows names better than me, but they're all buddies with Mon. He's the connecting hub for all those brutes. Get Mon to tell the truth, and you crack the case wide open. A note about the Maung Maung. There are two Burmese young men named Maung Muang in this case. One is a DJ (we can call him MMDJ) who worked (or partied) at AC bar and who allegedly interacted with Nomsod (and also with David) at that bar that night. He split Thailand right after the crime.

The other Maung Maung was a member of the B3 for a day, until it became the B2. I thought he'd be called as a witness for the prosecution, but he may instead be called as a witness for the defense. I don't know whether he's in Thailand. That's another reason why the Headman's people and RTP want everything stretched out. The more time goes by, the harder it is to get ahold of witnesses, and the more cloudy peoples' recollections become.

[smedly]

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

Please explain why we should believe anything you write about this subject Ale...... G.....? Don't get out of your depth Sir!

Have not you already disqualified yourself from any level of truthfulness in your previous posts and/or reviews?

No, I have not disqualified myself on anything; if anything those would had been the ones that insisted that no evidence has been presented against the defendants.

you just don't get it do you

there is a huge difference between police making claims something was a match and them actually being able to legally present it - that presented evidence should be available for verification and there should also be a (Chain of Custody) detailed record of who how were and when the evidence was handled and tested, like I said a few pages back - it would be like police presenting a ballistic report of a murder weapon (gun) but either lost the gun or are unable to produce it in court - the ballistic report would no longer be viable - what is so difficult to understand Alex

[Madaussie]

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family

Is that true? I didn't think they had attended?

Well, this is pretty well how the Media has reported this case from day one.

One day reported the Family is not here and is not coming. The next day they are reported sitting in the Court Room.

The Samui Times is not known for its accuracy. 2 or the Miller family are in court but no one from the Hannah's side

Sky news reported that on day one, Hannah's parents saw the graphic images of Hannah's body and after that they didn't go to the court again.

It is quite possible that other members of the family are there.

No family there at all. no one. They are getting reports from someone there daily. They wont go back.

[Madaussie]

Shermanator, the guy whose picture you have posted is a different guy from the ring guy.

Thanks for pointing that out, but who's the perverted F posing with the hoe then?

The Hoe Man Is Sean McAnnas friend.

sean and hoe man.png

Shan's friend? That's some sick s__t, man!!!!

That's a fair comment.

I found this before. A summary of Seans Thai adventures. What do they say. A picture speaks a 1000 words.. well heres about 10,000.

[stephenterry]

Let's take a straw poll. I believe the b2 are scapegoats.

[joebrown]

i have commented on this case before and I still maintain that the verdict is already in these 2 boys will be found guilty to appease the families of the victims .

I wonder just how much you really knew about the 'background' of this case, before posting. It is highly likely the judges will find the defendants guilty, but IMHO it will not be because they have given much, if any thought to the feelings of the victims' families. Far more important things are at stake here. I suggest you read-up more on the history of this case and the 'politics' involved.

[Madaussie]

Let's take a straw poll. I believe the b2 are scapegoats.

agreed

[sweatalot]

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

Please explain why we should believe anything you write about this subject Ale...... G.....? Don't get out of your depth Sir!

Have not you already disqualified yourself from any level of truthfulness in your previous posts and/or reviews?

While you are right I doubt that he deserves the honor of your attention