Thai Visa 2 stroke gurus...

[thaiguzzi]

So, i've had my trials project running now for a good couple of months, Yamaha RXZ 135 in an Aprilia Climber rolling chassis, everything sorted and runs well, getting quite good at the sport, and i'm asking the people on here, what is the most common, popular BIGGEST single cylinder 2 stroke motor readily available in Thailand. Air cooled preferably, water cooled ok. The RXZ knocks out about 20 bhp, what i'd like is something with more grunt, maybe 25-30 bhp. There are 165cc big bore kits available from Malaysia, but i think they are set up for the road racing crowd and hence will have different port timing and shape; not what i'm after. The engine, just like an RXZ, needs to have parts easily available at most decent bike shops, ie cdi, clutch plates, piston etc. Fabrication/machining no problem my end, ie fitting it into the frame.

Thanx for any info.

[OmegaRacer]

Not sure if that's what you're after, but maybe the NSR 150 R has an excellent (liquid cooled) engine and has an output of over 30hp (if I'm not mistaken). There are 3 versions (R, RR and SP). The R and RR are the more common ones and to be had for 10 to 20k. The SP is the one with single swingarm, rarer and therefore more expensive (up to 60k!).

[ktm jeff]

The 150cc engines from those old Kawasakis or Hondas may fit . Liquid cooled though , and road bikes , so powerband may not be suitable . Can you import a suitable engine from Japan .

[Dutchbike]

The biggest easy available 2 strokes engines in Thailand are indeed the mentioned liquid cooled 150cc NSR/TZR/TZM/KRR engines but all fitted with a powervalve system and therefore not very suited on a trail bike. I own a few of those bikes and they start to feel happy at 6K rpm and above.

Honda has made a 2 stroke 150cc Phanthom which is a NSR engine more tuned for low end so that could be an option.

The aircooled kawasaki GTO engine could also be an option but is similair in power to the RXZ engine.

Another option I could think of is the engine of a Honda LS125/ DASH no powervalve and pretty compact, still very popular in the Thai dragrace scene, lot's of parts still available. But I guess a stock engine has about the same power as a RXZ (20ish HP) If you could find a good 2T tuner you could have it ported for more low end power and, most important have a good pipe made.

Maybe an old 2T MotoX bike could be a donor, but then there's the issue of hard to get parts.

b.t.w Nice project, any pics ? and what happend to the Aprilia's Climber engine? :-) beyond repair?

[thaiguzzi]

Thanx for the replies guys, appreciated. And it's about what i thought. Ideally there may have been a 250 single (pref air cooled) available but that is not going to happen.

Regarding import from Japan, no, i could import a 70-80's 250 Fantic motor from the Uk more easily and cheaper.

Yes, i have seen these 150 water cooled motors, there are scruffy whole bikes locally for sale from 5 to 10k complete and running, but i'd only want the engine. Having looked closer at these, the rad is an awkward fit, no room for an oil tank (i'm on premix anyway), and the motors are a bit messy externally aesthetically once you remove all the plastics. I also believe, what with power valves etc, and rpm limits of 10-11k, that the narrow power band and lack of low down torque are completely wrong for a trials motor. Common modern trials bikes (Beta, GG, Sherco etc) all have max rpm around 6-8k and loads of low down grunt.

I think i'll persevere with what i've got, (i see a lot of these bikes with sidecars attached, and used as workhorses, so the motor is about right for trials), it aint bad, perhaps i'll try a flywheel weight, and maybe a set of new aftermarket reeds. The exhaust system is good. The 165 kit from Malaysia may be worth a try (not expensive), and they also do a 3mm increased stroker crank...

The bike came to me with the RXZ motor already in, the original Rotax motor had self grenaded...

Pics soon, but still have not repainted the bodywork from the garish original 89 Aprilia colours.

Thanx again for your input guys.

Mike.

[ktm jeff]

Keep the original colours ! they may come back in fashion - one day

[thaiguzzi]

a) i'm not into fashion, never have been.

that late 80's early 90's trials period, they were experimenting with some truly horrific colour schemes by all the manufacturers; pinks, purples etc, absolutely horrendous. I like my main colour of white or a silver - accentuates lightness. This period was also when the makers were experimenting with USD forks, lasted till about 94/95. Mine has USD Forales.

Re, my above post, the RXZ has what i call a proper m/c frame, hence looks like a typical proper 70's/80's lightweight m/c, and i don't see too many of them. The m/c's i was referring to as workhorses etc, used by farmers, the older generation, and with sidecars attached, are "underbones" a la Wave etc, either Honda or Yamaha air cooled. I presume these are 125cc 2T 4 speed bikes with lower wider power bands, less bhp, and extremely reliable. Anyone can give me more info on this genre?

Thanx.

[Dutchbike]

^^

The other genre as you name them are the old generation of underbone 2 strokes 110 / 125 cc mostly aircooled some with proper clutch some 4 some 5 speed, and some semi automatic a la wave.

Every brand had a few in their model range; Honda: Dash/ Teena/ Yamaha: Tiara/ JR Kawasaki Leo / and I believe Suzuki also had a dash lokalike with 2 stroke engine.

They are all slowly disapearing from the roads , but upcountry still used as workhorses, As I mentioned the Honda Dash Is the number 1 in the Thai dragrace scene, heavily modified, tuned and stripped down, these bikes are frightening fast.

Here a few pics of those almost forgotten bikes:

[thaiguzzi]

Many thanx DB.

Exactly what i was referring to. There is a Christian village about 4 kms from my nearest market town, where my son goes to school. For some reason, this village is just full of these types of bikes, easily as many 2T's as above as modern 4T Waves and autos. Strange. I note the above bikes all have a slanted fwd cylinder and head, no down tubes (obviously - being underbone), and hence i presume the motor is hanging from a head steady as well as rear engine mounts. Any close up pics of this arrangement? My RXZ motor has a bolt upright top end, and front engine mounts to downtubes.

Many thanx for your time and keep the info coming, i have put a lot of time and effort into this project so far, and do not mind modifying more to get it even better.

Enclosed a pic from the States of a Hodaka enthusiast who built this bike. One of the nicest trials bikes i've ever seen. 60's air cooled 125 Hodaka engine in a 2000's Sherco frame.

Enclosed pic of the Yamilia as i purchased it. I will upload some photos into my computer of how it looks now - much better, more detailed, much more sorted.

[Lampang2]

Not sure if that's what you're after, but maybe the NSR 150 R has an excellent (liquid cooled) engine and has an output of over 30hp (if I'm not mistaken). There are 3 versions (R, RR and SP). The R and RR are the more common ones and to be had for 10 to 20k. The SP is the one with single swingarm, rarer and therefore more expensive (up to 60k!).

It has a power of 39 bhp (29 kW) from its 150 cc engine.

[OmegaRacer]

Yes, that's what the official spec sheet said, but I think that's a bit too optimistic. In any case, plenty of HP for such a nimble and lightweight bike.

[Dutchbike]

^^

Specs sheets in those days were quite optimistic, same as the speedometers :-)

A stock NSR150SP makes around 22/24 hp with a different pipe you'll getting aound 29 hp.

To reach 39 HP serious tuning is required: CDI,Porting,Cylinderhead,Different carb.

B.T.W Thaiguzzi that RXZ engine looks like it's made for that climber frame, curious how the bike looks after you sorted it out.

It already looks quite tidy on that picture.

[Lampang2]

^^

Specs sheets in those days were quite optimistic, same as the speedometers :-)

A stock NSR150SP makes around 22/24 hp with a different pipe you'll getting aound 29 hp.

To reach 39 HP serious tuning is required: CDI,Porting,Cylinderhead,Different carb.

NSR150dyno.jpg

B.T.W Thaiguzzi that RXZ engine looks like it's made for that climber frame, curious how the bike looks after you sorted it out.

It already looks quite tidy on that picture.

29 is not bad with an after-market pipe.

a good condition nsr150sp costs about 30Kbaht.

I wonder how much HP the old Honda nova dash:es produce that they run dragracing with, and what mods they do. I have seen they are also 150cc modified.

ps

CBR300R-15 makes 27 on the dyno but torque is of course "better"

ds

[Lampang2]

a reflection:

cbr300r-15 makes about 27hp

gsxr1000-05 makes 170hp / liter correlates to 51hp for 300cc puts the 10year younger cbr300r to shame.

ZXR400-92 makes 62hp , almost on par with gsxr1000-05 170hp/liter.

all in the revs

2 stroke should make about twice hp/liter

RG Gamma 500-85 made 93hp so they were close to 200hp/liter but so are the 1000c 4 stroke today.

[thaiguzzi]

DB,

thanx.

Yes, the motor suits the bike well. Would have been nice to have put it another inch or two further back with the g/box sprkt closer to the s/arm pivot, but there is no room with the carb, air filter hose and rear shock. The original Rotax motor had the carb feeding straight into the c/cases, rather than the cylinder barrel.

Alloy sidepanels are gone, proper air filter and hose to u'neath the seat, 90 degree throttle, seat re-covered in black, custom alloy heat shields (2) for the pipe (ouch - wearing shorts before), chainguard, s/arm chain protection, proper nylon chain run/tension set up, forks renovated, carburation sorted (several hours), and LOTS of stainless fasteners, all lightened and/or tapered by me in the lathe.

Next on the list is a set of wider footpegs, these std ones kill my feet after 25 - 30 minutes standing on them. Also going to cut the L/H engine sidecover into two parts. One for the stator/flywheel, and then going to heavily modify whats left of the sprocket cover on the milling machine.

[Dutchbike]

DB,

thanx.

Yes, the motor suits the bike well. Would have been nice to have put it another inch or two further back with the g/box sprkt closer to the s/arm pivot, but there is no room with the carb, air filter hose and rear shock. The original Rotax motor had the carb feeding straight into the c/cases, rather than the cylinder barrel.

Alloy sidepanels are gone, proper air filter and hose to u'neath the seat, 90 degree throttle, seat re-covered in black, custom alloy heat shields (2) for the pipe (ouch - wearing shorts before), chainguard, s/arm chain protection, proper nylon chain run/tension set up, forks renovated, carburation sorted (several hours), and LOTS of stainless fasteners, all lightened and/or tapered by me in the lathe.

Next on the list is a set of wider footpegs, these std ones kill my feet after 25 - 30 minutes standing on them. Also going to cut the L/H engine sidecover into two parts. One for the stator/flywheel, and then going to heavily modify whats left of the sprocket cover on the milling machine.

Impressive description I see you take your projects serious.

I never rode a trail bike, but guess there great fun to play around, also relative safe and the fun can start in the back garden.

If you're into trailing I'm sure you know Toni Bou, unbelievable what that guy can do on a trail bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EIy-Kvikepw

[thaiguzzi]

Ordering wide footpegs today from the UK, along with a 0-15psi tyre guage.

Yes Tony Bou has been the king of trials (not trail - big difference) for several years now, pretty much unbeatable, and on a 4 stroke. A game changer. Before him was Adam Raga. Pretty much all the best riders these days are Spanish. As much as i admire their breathtaking skills, i'm not such a big fan of the modern "stop" rules and all that splat, hop stuff. I prefer the older "no stop" rules and also prefer the outdoor stuff to indoor arena trials. Check out the SSDT vids (Scottish Six Day Trials). Now that is hard work.

[ktm jeff]

thaiguzzi , i will be seeing Sammy Miller in a couple of weeks . Now theres a rider .

[papa al]

In post 9, the way the cooling fins in the Hodaka head have been drilled...wow.

Less is more.

Edited October 9, 2015 by papa al

[thaiguzzi]

thaiguzzi , i will be seeing Sammy Miller in a couple of weeks . Now theres a rider .

Bring me a pair of tires back in your suitcase please. Square you up this end c/w postage to Udon, and a nice drink on top.

[thaiguzzi]

Dutchbike - PM sent.

[ktm jeff]

thaiguzzi , i will be seeing Sammy Miller in a couple of weeks . Now theres a rider .

Bring me a pair of tires back in your suitcase please. Square you up this end c/w postage to Udon, and a nice drink on top.

I,d be glad too , but with the internal flight baggage limit of 15KG (Thai Lion Air) , i struggle myself . Im after a set of tires for my everyday run-around , a Platinum PX 250 supermotard , which im after some 17" dual sport tires for. Similar tread pattern to a Keeway / Lifan dual sport bikes , but 17" .. I will ask here , and in another thread.

[papa al]

papa went to a trials meet years ago in New Mexico.

(That is one of the 50 states, south of Colorado.)

From little kids on electric bikes thru the riders somehow climbing 4 foot sheer boulders.

Really something!

[thaiguzzi]

4 metres now! Check some of the Trials vids out, Tony Bou etc. Unreal!

[VocalNeal]

RXZ has about the same torque as a TA150 phantom but the Phantom is at 9000 rpm and RXZ at 7500 so my original idea is flawed especially for trials.

You can up your RXZ to 147cc by using a 1mm (59mm) oversize piston from an RX-King that would give you a little more. But your bike has 140 on the tank so maybe it already has a 58mm std. RX King piston at 142cc.

[VocalNeal]

The RZX has about the same torque as the Phantom 150 but at 1500 rpm less so my original thoughts are flawed, especially for trials.

You can get your RZX to 147cc by using a RX King 1mm oversize 59mm piston but I noticed yours has 140 on the tank so it may already has a stock RX King 58mm piston at 142cc, so there goes another of my ideas.

Stock RXZ only has a 7:1 compression so there is a bit of wiggle room there, but if yours has a 58mm piston it may also have a modified head already.

Edited October 13, 2015 by VocalNeal

[rhodie]

DB,

thanx.

Yes, the motor suits the bike well. Would have been nice to have put it another inch or two further back with the g/box sprkt closer to the s/arm pivot, but there is no room with the carb, air filter hose and rear shock. The original Rotax motor had the carb feeding straight into the c/cases, rather than the cylinder barrel.

Alloy sidepanels are gone, proper air filter and hose to u'neath the seat, 90 degree throttle, seat re-covered in black, custom alloy heat shields (2) for the pipe (ouch - wearing shorts before), chainguard, s/arm chain protection, proper nylon chain run/tension set up, forks renovated, carburation sorted (several hours), and LOTS of stainless fasteners, all lightened and/or tapered by me in the lathe.

Next on the list is a set of wider footpegs, these std ones kill my feet after 25 - 30 minutes standing on them. Also going to cut the L/H engine sidecover into two parts. One for the stator/flywheel, and then going to heavily modify whats left of the sprocket cover on the milling machine.

Impressive description I see you take your projects serious.

I never rode a trail bike, but guess there great fun to play around, also relative safe and the fun can start in the back garden.

If you're into trailing I'm sure you know Toni Bou, unbelievable what that guy can do on a trail bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EIy-Kvikepw

Wow. Really impressive!

[thaiguzzi]

RXZ has about the same torque as a TA150 phantom but the Phantom is at 9000 rpm and RXZ at 7500 so my original idea is flawed especially for trials.

You can up your RXZ to 147cc by using a 1mm (59mm) oversize piston from an RX-King that would give you a little more. But your bike has 140 on the tank so maybe it already has a 58mm std. RX King piston at 142cc.

RXZ 135 Thailand/Malaysia/Singapore (5 or 6 speed) has a bore and stroke of 56 x 54mm = 133cc and rated 20bhp. The 4 speed RX and RXG 135 from India has a bore and stroke of 58 x 50mm = 132cc and a rated 12bhp. Mine is on max overbore of +1mm = 137cc.

There are 2 big bore kits from Malasia for the RXZ, 58mm = 143cc (called a 145), 62mm = 163cc (called a 165). The 165 kit would mean c/head machining and looking at the ad, quality is not guaranteed. The 145 kit looks great. There is also a +1mm stroker kit (55mm stroke) available from the same supplier, but this does pretty much buggar all for cc (+2cc!).

Putting one of those Indian 58mm cylinder barrrels on would probably greatly increase torque, but drop bhp right down, probably all to do with transfer inlet/ex ports. I'll stick with RXZ parts at the moment, but look into this RX King bore/piston stuff, thanx.

Can you let me know what the actual torque figures are (in lbs/ft) for an RXZ please. Thanx.

[thaiguzzi]

thaiguzzi , i will be seeing Sammy Miller in a couple of weeks . Now theres a rider .

Bring me a pair of tires back in your suitcase please. Square you up this end c/w postage to Udon, and a nice drink on top.

I,d be glad too , but with the internal flight baggage limit of 15KG (Thai Lion Air) , i struggle myself . Im after a set of tires for my everyday run-around , a Platinum PX 250 supermotard , which im after some 17" dual sport tires for. Similar tread pattern to a Keeway / Lifan dual sport bikes , but 17" .. I will ask here , and in another thread.

Unnerstan.

Thanx.

No 17" tyres for your application? Try perhaps big bike shops Kawa/BMW etc.

[thaiguzzi]

The RZX has about the same torque as the Phantom 150 but at 1500 rpm less so my original thoughts are flawed, especially for trials.

You can get your RZX to 147cc by using a RX King 1mm oversize 59mm piston but I noticed yours has 140 on the tank so it may already has a stock RX King 58mm piston at 142cc, so there goes another of my ideas.

Stock RXZ only has a 7:1 compression so there is a bit of wiggle room there, but if yours has a 58mm piston it may also have a modified head already.

I have a Malaysian RXZ parts book. I have an Indian RXG workshop manual (not that relevant, but still useful). Both in English and downloaded off the net. You seem to have some figures which i don't have access too like torque and C:R etc. You got any paperwork, that i have'nt, and if so, mind sharing. Thankyou.