Dutch probe: Buk missile downed Malaysian jet in Ukraine

[webfact]

Dutch probe: Buk missile downed Malaysian jet in Ukraine
By JOHN-THOR DAHLBURG and MIKE CORDER

GILZE-RIJEN AIR BASE, Netherlands (AP) — The missile shot skyward from war-ravaged eastern Ukraine. With deadly accuracy more than six miles up, it detonated just in front of the Malaysia Airlines jetliner, sending hundreds of jagged steel shards ripping through its aluminum skin at up to 5,600 mph and shearing the cockpit from the rest of the plane.

The two pilots and purser in the cockpit died instantly, and the Boeing 777 disintegrated and fell to earth, killing the rest of the 298 men, women and children aboard Flight 17 on July 17, 2014, Dutch investigators said Tuesday in a long-awaited report.

Some of the victims may have been conscious for 60 to 90 seconds, the Dutch Safety Board said, but they probably were not fully aware of what was happening in the oxygen-starved, freezing chaos. The tornado-like airflow surging through the doomed jet as it came apart was powerful enough to tear off people's clothes and leave naked corpses amid the fields of sunflowers.

The 15-month Dutch investigation blamed a Soviet-made surface-to-air Buk missile for downing the Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur flight, but it did not explicitly say who had fired it. It identified an area of 320 square kilometers (120 square miles) where it said the launch must have taken place, and all of the land was in the hands of pro-Russian separatists fighting Ukrainian forces at the time of the disaster, according to daily maps of fighting released by the Ukrainian National Security Council.

The Dutch Safety Board also found that the tragedy wouldn't have happened if the airspace of eastern Ukraine had been totally closed to passenger planes as fighting raged below.

"Our investigation showed that all parties regarded the conflict in eastern part of Ukraine from a military perspective. Nobody gave any thought of a possible threat to civil aviation," Safety Board chairman Tjibbe Joustra said in releasing the report at a military base in the southern Netherlands.

He spoke in front of the partially reassembled red, white and blue Malaysian jetliner, much of the left side of its mangled fuselage front riddled with shrapnel holes.

Russian officials were prompt to dismiss the Dutch report, with Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov calling it an obvious "attempt to make a biased conclusion, in essence to carry out a political order."

Earlier Tuesday, the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.

The Russian state-controlled consortium Almaz-Antey said it conducted experiments, including one in which a Buk missile was detonated near the nose of an airplane similar to a 777, and it contended they contradicted the conclusion that a Buk missile of the kind used by the Russians destroyed Flight 17. Almaz-Antey had earlier suggested that it could have been a model of Buk that is no longer in service with the Russian military but is part of Ukraine's arsenal.

It said the experiments also rebutted claims the missile was fired from Snizhne, a village that was under rebel control. An Associated Press reporter saw a Buk missile system in that vicinity on the same day.

Despite the moves by Moscow, Prime Minister Mark Rutte of the Netherlands called on Russia to fully cooperate with a separate criminal investigation that Dutch prosecutors are conducting into the downing of the plane, in which 196 Dutch nationals died.

Rutte said a key priority "is now tracking down and prosecuting the perpetrators."

"On July 17, 2014, in eastern Ukraine, in broad daylight, a passenger airplane was shot out of the sky with a Buk missile," he said. The safety board's conclusions confirmed "some of our most shocking suspicions," he added.

In a statement, the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team said it has already identified "persons of interest" in the probe, but said it is "not easy" to find witnesses, especially ones willing to make a statement. They said their probe will stretch into 2016.

The Netherlands has headed the international investigation into the disaster because most victims were Dutch. Ukraine, in whose airspace the incident occurred, agreed to let the Netherlands take the lead.

At U.N. headquarters, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin defended his country's decision not to close its airspace, saying no one at the time was aware of the possibility that Russia had brought highly sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles into Ukraine.

Klimkin also praised the Dutch report as "fully unbiased and transparent," and said what now is needed is for a criminal investigation to reveal the chain of command and bring those responsible to justice.

Malaysia's Prime Minister Najib Razak also said the world "must move forward toward ensuring that those responsible are held accountable for this murderous act." There were 43 Malaysians aboard, the second-highest total.

Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said on Wednesday that her government would not been bullied by Russia in Australia's pursuit of justice.

Bishop told Seven Network television that a criminal investigation of the "atrocity" will continue.

"We certainly won't be bullied by anyone in our pursuit of justice for the families of those aboard," Bishop told the Seven Network.

Australia had the third largest number of victims with 39 Australian citizens and permanent residents aboard.

Dutch investigators said the missile detonated less than a meter (3.3 feet) from the plane, to the left side of the cockpit, sending the shrapnel into the plane at speeds of up to 9,000 kph (5,600 mph).

Joustra said missile fragments found in the cockpit crew's bodies, as well as paint traces, helped investigators to identify the Buk. Some of the pieces of metal, he said, were shaped like cubes or "bow ties" — a detail weapons experts called extremely significant.

"The overall picture is conclusive — a 9M38M1 surface-to-air missile from a Buk operated from rebel-held territory in east Ukraine was responsible for the shooting down of MH17," said Nick de Larrinaga, Europe editor for IHS Jane's Defense Weekly.

Joustra said the Russian government had been given the opportunity to review the report's conclusions in advance, and that it maintained it was impossible to determine the type of missile or warhead that struck the Boeing with certainty.

The missile explosion caused a "deafening sound wave" anyone still alive aboard would have heard, the Dutch report said.

The sudden decompression, reduced oxygen levels and extreme cold of minus 40-50 degrees Celsius (minus-40-58 degrees Fahrenheit) may have killed some people. As the high winds tore through the cabin, hand baggage and other personal belongings may have become lethal projectiles.

As the mangled, pilotless jet went into its deadly dive from 33,000 feet, those who hadn't already died may have suffered dizziness, nausea and, finally, blackout and death.

Rob Fredriksz, whose son Bryce was aboard Flight 17, said he was relieved to hear that the passengers died almost instantly and "absolutely felt and knew nothing."

Paul Guard, an Australian man whose parents Jill and Roger died aboard Flight 17, said on Wednesday he believes the Russians aren't the only ones at fault.

"Russia's got a role and they haven't been very helpful. So I blame Russia partially but not completely. There are many other players that are also to blame," Guard told Nine Network television in the Queensland state capital Brisbane.

Key findings of the investigation were given to families of victims before the report was released, and Fredriksz said some relatives became emotional when they were shown an animation portraying the downing of the plane.

On Tuesday evening, President Vladimir Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said Russia was disappointed its experts hadn't been invited to take part in the Dutch investigation, adding that the refusal to take the findings of the Buk manufacturer's experiments into account reflected a biased approach.

Commenting on Ukraine blaming Russia-backed separatists for downing the plane, Peskov said that "prior to the completion of the probe, it's inadmissible to put labels and name culprits."

U.S. National Security Council spokesman Ned Price said the Dutch investigation was conducted in a professional manner and should serve as the basis for further work to identify those responsible for the aircraft's destruction.

In the village of Hrabove where the jet came down, Lyudmila Grigoryak — whose house was the closest to the crash site — brought red carnations Tuesday to the field where small pieces of the fuselage are still scattered.

Unlike a year and a half ago when heavy fighting was just nearby, the area is quiet and deserted. All the camouflaged rebels who were patrolling the area and manning checkpoints are gone.
___

Corder reported from The Hague, Netherlands. Nataliya Vasilyeva, Jim Heintz and Vladimir Isachenkov in Moscow, Raf Casert in Brussels, Mstyslav Chernov in Hrabove, Ukraine, Jamey Keaten in Geneva, Edith M. Lederer at the United Nations and Nancy Benac in Washington contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-10-14

[stevenl]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

[hard124get]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

[sandyf]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

Also no information forthcoming from the US.

[godden]

R.I.P. to all those who died could have been any one of us.

[FangFerang]

It's another TOLFUNS ...ToO Late to Find the trUth News Story.

[stevenl]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

This together with the early tweet from the rebels make it very, very clear the rebels were behind it. The only think not clear yet is whether Russian military were directly involved or not.

You can deny and accuse all you like, it is very clear.

[oneday]

"...it an obvious "attempt to make a biased conclusion, in essence to carry out a political order."

...and that is an obvious Russian (Putin) cover up lie. Shame on you Putin for not owning up to this horrible tragedy perpetrated by the rebels you back.

[kiwikeith]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

Glad someone on TV has some sense Russia not to blame the investigation a sham, just a small point ,Joe Biden and the Dutch are major players in oil in Ukraine they nick name this Joe Bidens war, a botched attempt to bring Nato into the ukraine.

[ChaJay]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

Glad someone on TV has some sense Russia not to blame the investigation a sham, just a small point ,Joe Biden and the Dutch are major players in oil in Ukraine they nick name this Joe Bidens war, a botched attempt to bring Nato into the ukraine.

I sincerely hope you are not serious. But if you are, check your facts again. Who supported the rebels with weaponry and manpower, enabling them to take control of eastern Ukraine, to begin with? Where do the buk missiles come from? Whatever the intentions of the Dutch and Americans with Ukraine, they would never even consider shooting an civilian aircraft out of the skies and killing almost 300 people. Someone on the other side, Ukrainean or Russian, had no problem with that. It would have been humane and right if Russia had ensured the capture of the ones responsible. Instead, Russia has not been coöperative in the investigations and has been trying to down play the credibility of the investigation-results, for their own political benefits. That's downright disgusting.

[Harsh Jones]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

This together with the early tweet from the rebels make it very, very clear the rebels were behind it. The only think not clear yet is whether Russian military were directly involved or not.

You can deny and accuse all you like, it is very clear.

If it was very clear, the nato side would have released the cockpit recordings, satellite images ect. I don't remember a plane crash in my whole life where the recordings were withheld.

[Srikcir]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

The two black boxes were recovered by pro-Russian insurgents who controlled the crash site and turned over to Malaysian authorities. British air accident specialists were tasked by Malaysia with downloading the data from two black boxes to be examines by the Dutch Safety Board.

Investigation was led by the Dutch Safety Board whose members are Dutch citizens. Denmark is a NATO member but also two-thirds of the victims were Danish that gave it investigative jurisdiction.

[stevenl]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

This together with the early tweet from the rebels make it very, very clear the rebels were behind it. The only think not clear yet is whether Russian military were directly involved or not.

You can deny and accuse all you like, it is very clear.

If it was very clear, the nato side would have released the cockpit recordings, satellite images ect. I don't remember a plane crash in my whole life where the recordings were withheld.

What NATO side, their is no NATO side in this. There was an aircrash investigation by completely independent parties. They did their best, but were hampered by involved parties trying to prevent them from doing a proper investigation.

Edited October 14, 2015 by stevenl

[stevenl]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

The two black boxes were recovered by pro-Russian insurgents who controlled the crash site and turned over to Malaysian authorities. British air accident specialists were tasked by Malaysia with downloading the data from two black boxes to be examines by the Dutch Safety Board.

Investigation was led by the Dutch Safety Board whose members are Dutch citizens. Denmark is a NATO member but also two-thirds of the victims were Danish that gave it investigative jurisdiction.

No Danish involvement in this.

[ChaJay]

I don't think this leaves any doubt about the culprits.

Yes, the Ukraine army. Glad you can see the cover up as well. No ATC recordings from Kiev, no black box info. . Investigation was led by a NATO member. NATO are anti-Russian in purpose. Ukraine was one of the accused, and also one of the investigators. A total sham.

This together with the early tweet from the rebels make it very, very clear the rebels were behind it. The only think not clear yet is whether Russian military were directly involved or not.

You can deny and accuse all you like, it is very clear.

If it was very clear, the nato side would have released the cockpit recordings, satellite images ect. I don't remember a plane crash in my whole life where the recordings were withheld.

It is also very clear that you haven't read the report and the appendices. By doing so you will understand that whatever recordings exist, are there for all to read. AND it might explain why they were careful not to release the results too quickly.

[Harsh Jones]

If it was very clear, the nato side would have released the cockpit recordings, satellite images ect. I don't remember a plane crash in my whole life where the recordings were withheld.

It is also very clear that you haven't read the report and the appendices. By doing so you will understand that whatever recordings exist, are there for all to read. AND it might explain why they were careful not to release the results too quickly.

You are right. I have not. Which means that there must be some evidence on the recordings that absolves Russia of fault. Because if there was evidence that implicated Russia, it would be blasted all over CNN.

[ChaJay]

Can we make a sub-group for this thread? Allowing only people with a reasonable IQ, or an intelligent ability to reason?

Edited October 14, 2015 by ChaJay

[Scott]

No and keep the discussion on topic and civil.

[peterb17]

At the time the BBC had released video footage ( and some satellite info) of the missile launchers rapidly being moved back to Russia.

There were other reports of the crew of the launchers having mysteriously ' disappeared ' .

We will probably never know the truth as long as the ex KGB tyrant is in charge.

[ABCer]

stevenl, - nothing personal, but people with crystal clear vision and understanding of things are often led by the hand to their firm view point.

There is one report and description of related events (with photographs) by a German ex-pilot which is putting an entirely new light on the whole incident.

He argues quite convincingly that the damage was done by 30 mm anti-tank machine gun shells exploding inside the cockpit. The fire according to him came from two Ukrainian military jets each firing from opposite direction.

Ukrainians dismiss these allegations by quoting the insufficient ceiling of these planes. Wrong! The actual ceiling of their machines was and is 10,800 m.

The German pilot sounds very reasonable and not politically motivated. His explanations are the only ones explaining the nature and shapes of incoming and outcoming punctures.

Do not ask me for reference. I do not remember. But maybe some member here can help with this? Thanks in advance.

And finally:

Russkies had no motive for such an act;

Rebels had no motive for such an act;

Ukrainians had no motive for such an act;

Unknowingly, by mistake any one of the above could have fired this "BUK";

But if it was not "BUK" that downed the plane - the entirely new ball game appears.

If the culprits are rebels - no matter what language they speak, no matter who supports them - legally they are Ukrainian's responsibility.

And yes, I do question the impartiality and the expertise of this Dutch Investigative Body.

Perhaps what I miss in 'clear vision and conviction' of some is compensated by 'doubt'. I doubt everything I'm told.

Edited October 14, 2015 by ABCer

[Jonmarleesco]

'... the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.' Meaning the missile self-launched?

[peterb17]

At the time the BBC had released video footage ( and some satellite info) of the missile launchers rapidly being moved back to Russia.

There were other reports of the crew of the launchers having mysteriously ' disappeared ' .

We will probably never know the truth as long as the ex KGB tyrant is in charge.

Ukraine has lots of BUKs. You are implying that the BUK is some high tech Russian weapon when it is just Soviet technology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Anti-Aircraft

9K37 Buk Soviet Union Medium Range Air Defense SA-17 Grizzly

SA-11 Gadfly

60

I am aware of that-I was just pointing out that there was evidence at the time of the mobile launchers being rapidly moved back to Russian territory.

[stevenl]

stevenl, - nothing personal, but people with crystal clear vision and understanding of things are often led by the hand to their firm view point.

There is one report and description of related events (with photographs) by a German ex-pilot which is putting an entirely new light on the whole incident.

He argues quite convincingly that the damage was done by 30 mm anti-tank machine gun shells exploding inside the cockpit. The fire according to him came from two Ukrainian military jets each firing from opposite direction.

Ukrainians dismiss these allegations by quoting the insufficient ceiling of these planes. Wrong! The actual ceiling of their machines was and is 10,800 m.

The German pilot sounds very reasonable and not politically motivated. His explanations are the only ones explaining the nature and shapes of incoming and outcoming punctures.

Do not ask me for reference. I do not remember. But maybe some member here can help with this? Thanks in advance.

And finally:

Russkies had no motive for such an act;

Rebels had no motive for such an act;

Ukrainians had no motive for such an act;

Unknowingly, by mistake any one of the above could have fired this "BUK";

But if it was not "BUK" that downed the plane - the entirely new ball game appears.

If the culprits are rebels - no matter what language they speak, no matter who supports them - legally they are Ukrainian's responsibility.

And yes, I do question the impartiality and the expertise of this Dutch Investigative Body.

Perhaps what I miss in 'clear vision and conviction' of some is compensated by 'doubt'. I doubt everything I'm told.

Nonsense, BUK shrapnel has been found in the plane's fuselage.

You may question the origin of the missile, I think the present report plus early information, including e.g. a rebel tweet and moving of a BUK installing from the area where the missile originated to Russia, are convincing.

And please stop implying everybody but you is being mislead.

And yes, I believe the rebels made a mistake and did not intend to down a passenger plane. I have no idea if the rebels who downed it were led by Russian military yes or no, but Russian involvement (personnel and for sure material) is to me a fact, and the only reason for them to try and dismiss this report.

Edited October 14, 2015 by stevenl

[Harsh Jones]

'... the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.' Meaning the missile self-launched?

The Ukraine army has BUKS in its inventory and men capable of running them.

[StasD]

Ukkraine is guiltu no doubt. If they used air force plane like SU-25,SU 27, tactical missles "Tochka-U" why did not close air space? Also Ukranian dispathcher disappeared immediately after tragedy and we still do not know about her conversation with pilots MH-17. A lot of questions without any answer.

[ABCer]

'... the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.' Meaning the missile self-launched?

Everybody knows Russia is the "BUK" manufacturer.

Ukraine has "BUK" installations too.

It is a very old model of Earth-to-Air rocket system, dating back to Soviets in 1963 (???).

It can be found anywhere. But it is not a hand held 'stinger' type rocket. One needs serious equipment and trained staff to hit a plane.

Dutch investigators may wright what they like, but some facts remain an unexplained mystery suggesting there were other than "BUK" factors.

I have great respect for Dutch flowers industry. In this investigation Russians without doubt should have been a part.

Edited October 14, 2015 by ABCer

[stevenl]

'... the Buk's manufacturer presented its own report trying to clear the separatists, and Russia itself, of any involvement.' Meaning the missile self-launched?

Everybody knows Russia is the "BUK" manufacturer.

Ukraine has "BUK" installations too.

It is a very old model of Earth-to-Air rocket system, dating back to Soviets in 1963 (???).

It can be found anywhere. But it is not a hand held 'stinger' type rocket. One needs serious equipment and trained staff to hit a plane.

Dutch investigators may wright what they like, but some facts remain an unexplained mystery suggesting there were other than "BUK" factors.

I have great respect for Dutch flowers industry. In this investigation Russians without doubt should have been a part.

Why would that be? It was not a Russian plane, there were no Russian nationals on board, it did not depart from or go to any place in Russia.

[dutchisaan]

Just one question to our Russian members on ths form.

How come, when the Dutch government asked at the UN securty council for a Resolution to find the people behind the downing of MH17.

And Russia used it veto.

Hey, if you are not guilty, what is the problem?

[khunken]

I feel that this report is professionally presented following a professional investigation but unfortunately both sides of the Ukrainian divide are pointing fingers.

There is plenty of evidence that the rebels had captured at least one Buk from the Ukrainian military and the likehood is that they fired it mistaking the passenger jet for an Ukrainian military jet. There is no evidence that Russian advisers were involved.

The so-called 'evidence' of the Buk being move back into Russia is total bunk - an amateur fake not even on the Iraq WMD level of disinformation.

Russia has tried to blame the Ukraine military in defence of it's support for the rebels and the Ukrainians (with some support from their western pals) have accused the Russians of being directly involved in defence of one of their Buks being used. I'd dismiss both as tit-for-tat BS.

This is probably as close to a closure that the victims' families will ever get in the tragedy.

[Mumpel]

Rosaviatsia is going to resume investigation of MH17 crash site

Federal air transport Agency (Rosaviatsia) demands to reopen the investigation of the MH17 catastrophe in the Donbas. On the eve of the Netherlands not only published the final report on thecauses of the crash Boeing in the East of Ukraine, but also said that the identity of the perpetrators of the tragedy are established. Conclusions on the crash released by the Dutch party in Russia called «fundamentally wrong».

http://en.news-4-u.ru/rosaviatsia-is-going-to-resume-investigation-of-mh17-crash-site.html