Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[Maestro]

Sunbelt, do you have a link to the full text of this new Police Office Order?

Sunbelt, I now saw your link in another thread. Thank you for making this document publicly available.

--------------

Maestro

[pap]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

I have one word for you

CHINA

As China becomes more affluent as is happening now, they will begin to travel more as is happening now.

They will pay their money and get their visa and come here and spend their money.

Maybe not much money to begin with but their shear numbers will make up for it.

As the top end of THailand is mixed Chinese blood. Over the next few years they will marry locals, set up border business's and the money will start pouring in as is happeneing now.

The biggest market in the history of the world is right on Thailands doorstep and Thailand is set to reap the benefits. At just a dollar a head you are looking at 1.2 billion dollars.

So please dont kid yourselfs that when you and your dollars leave that it is somehow going to effect anything thats happening here. It may be a blip and not much more.

I certainly feel sorry for those that pegged their hopes on retiring in Thailand and now have to leave.

But i get the feeling that the table is being cleared for something bigger.

These recent moves to tighten everything up ie company house and land buying, visa changes, is either to stem the exponential growth that is about to happen or to facilitate it.

I believe it is to facilitate it.

Your one economic cycle to early. It will be the children now that reap this socio economic change. Not people who are adults now. Travel to China and you will see this first hand especially if you try to do business there. Pure and simple China isn't ready and won't be the economic engine of the world for 20 years.

If you wait 15 to 20 years however you are correct provided they can find the natural resources. By then many people reading this post wont care. And why spend 15 to 20 years being poor when you can be even richer with proper planning. The Thais are Thai and even though many are Thai Chinese they are Thai first. They do not want to give up their culture to anyone...that includes the Chinese....and they don't have to.

[VegasVic]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

I have one word for you

CHINA

As China becomes more affluent as is happening now, they will begin to travel more as is happening now.

They will pay their money and get their visa and come here and spend their money.

Maybe not much money to begin with but their shear numbers will make up for it.

As the top end of THailand is mixed Chinese blood. Over the next few years they will marry locals, set up border business's and the money will start pouring in as is happeneing now.

The biggest market in the history of the world is right on Thailands doorstep and Thailand is set to reap the benefits. At just a dollar a head you are looking at 1.2 billion dollars.

So please dont kid yourselfs that when you and your dollars leave that it is somehow going to effect anything thats happening here. It may be a blip and not much more.

I certainly feel sorry for those that pegged their hopes on retiring in Thailand and now have to leave.

But i get the feeling that the table is being cleared for something bigger.

These recent moves to tighten everything up ie company house and land buying, visa changes, is either to stem the exponential growth that is about to happen or to facilitate it.

I believe it is to facilitate it.

Me and my dollars? Don't kid yourself, you seem very naive to the events currently unfolding. In particular the Thai condo market in Phuket, Koh Samui, Hua Hin, Pattaya and elseware was due for a substantial correction even if the visa rules had not changed and there was not a military takeover of Thailand. Given the fact that these events did occur and simultaineously at that, I think the correction that was on the way already will be far more substantial. When you speak of the Chineese you must realize that there is already a great deal of tourisim and investment in Thailand by upper and upper middle class Chineese, but the Chineese are just as astute in the investment arena as are Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Austrailians, ect. ect. ect.! The Chineese are just as aware as the rest of us in the international investment community that Thailand is a very risky place to have an investment in currently, so I have no doubt that the Chineese will also be selling off some of their Thai assets and holdings and limiting any future investment. You post seems a little defensive to me, so I am guessing that you are heavily invested in the Thai markets(real estate or stock or both), if that is the case then my advise to you would be to take off the rose colored glasses and reasess the situation for your economic well being and the economic well being of your family. I pray that this military junta will have a positive effect on Thai economy in the long term, however in the short term it will be very difficult for the Thai markets.

[pap]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

Would be nice to be able to trust everyone's word of honour but this we say in England is these days living in "cloud cuckoo land". In my travels I have met as many US crooks as Britsih, french, German, etc. one. So why do your embassy think that the USA has a monopoly on honesty and it's citizens are thus better than other country's citizens, a bit pathetic dont you think. Sorry I am frankly amazed at the naivety of it. Come on get real how many I wonder US folk here in Thailand swear they have a high enough pension when they have none or inxufficiant, hmm maybe just the odd one or two do you think. Sorry this is plain crass naivity. An idealistic view of mankind's honesty. Sure I do believe that probavbly over 70% of folk are very honest but 30% is still a very significant number. Will the US immigration trust me if I swear I have a million pounds and want to live in the USA ??

I must add I am not anti US and have many yankee friends but this is one of those holier than thou attitudes that I do not like. Don't worry the Brits are guilty of this in other areas too. Alll I am saying is we should all be singing from the same hymn book.

I could not have put it better myself, What stupid kind of system allows you to say whatever you like as long as you "Swear It" . Maybe when they get a bank loan they just "Swear" they will pay it back lol. It's the stupidest thing I have heard in months but then again, you have to consider that compared with most countries the Yankie constitution rubbish is only about a week old so they will make some mistakes before they get it right.

A bit off topic but funny as hel_l.

And as far at this quote "One of the many beauties about being American is that you are raised under the "innocent until proven guilty" idea. " :D Should be changed to "Practice What You Preach"

Thats why our penalty for perjury is so high...Just ask Clinton.

[backflip]

The US embassy trusts your word and, from your attitudes, the trust is misplaced. So, what's the penalty of perjury in this specific case? You can be deported, and prevented from entering the Kingdom in the future.

[wilko]

The sudden introduction of this "shake-up" and the various other changes in rules/law regards property can only go to creating the impression that living / investing in thailand is at best unreliable. These nape of the neck decisions are introduced without any clear policy or view to their ramifications. whether they are right or wrong, effective or ineffective is irrelevant as the overall result will be a reluctance by people and businesses to bring themselves and their money here.

I know that many people are already looking at Malaysia as a property owning option.

Edited October 4, 2006 by wilko

[number6]

I would like to know why all the people living in thailand on a so called permanent basis do not become a citizen of Thailand and saves themselve the hazzle of forever obtaining vizas

because you cant or its incredably diffcult to do - even pr is not available if you dont have a wp and its limited by quota and even than its very difficult - ive lived here 5+ years married etc

[ssparks111]

I could not have put it better myself, What stupid kind of system allows you to say whatever you like as long as you "Swear It" . Maybe when they get a bank loan they just "Swear" they will pay it back lol. It's the stupidest thing I have heard in months but then again, you have to consider that compared with most countries the Yankie constitution rubbish is only about a week old so they will make some mistakes before they get it right. cheesy.gif

A bit off topic but funny as hel_l.

OK, my final word on this because this is getting off-topic and obviously it's turning into another America bashing thread by brainless, wannabe's that were born under the wrong passport!

FYI-the American Constitution is the oldest constitution still in effect in the world! Hardly can be considered just "a week old". No one else can claim that.

[sbk]

Sunbelt, do you have a link to the full text of this new Police Office Order?

Sunbelt, I now saw your link in another thread. Thank you for making this document publicly available.

--------------

Maestro

This is an important post that Sunbelt made, it seems to document the new changes quite clearly for all types of visa applicants.

Lets keep this on topic shall we?

[Ned]

I'm curious to learn what happened to Twin yesterday when he tried to extend his Retirement Visa. He didn't have 800K in his account 3 months ago and didn't know if he was going to get any hassles yesterday.

[number6]

QUOTE:

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Me for one but all my friends know im mad - mad when i bought in uk at times told dont buy - make tons - mad when i bought in usa when all said dont made some - mad when i bought here after 97 crash - made a lot - and just bought 4 more condos - mad me

See whos mad in 5 years - ??? any bets - property you do long term -

[Twin]

I'm curious to learn what happened to Twin yesterday when he tried to extend his Retirement Visa. He didn't have 800K in his account 3 months ago and didn't know if he was going to get any hassles yesterday.

Hi Ned.

I had no problems at all.

The report is here.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=86709

The supervisor told me next year I needed to have the money in the account 3 months ahead of renewal.

But when she looked through my passbook and saw 5 deposits over the last 2 years with steady drainage, she said, "For you, no problem".

I'll wait until next June to decide if I want to put the money in 3 months early. Things may change again before then!

Twin

Edited October 4, 2006 by Twin

[sabaijai]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

Would be nice to be able to trust everyone's word of honour but this we say in England is these days living in "cloud cuckoo land". In my travels I have met as many US crooks as Britsih, french, German, etc. one. So why do your embassy think that the USA has a monopoly on honesty and it's citizens are thus better than other country's citizens, a bit pathetic dont you think. Sorry I am frankly amazed at the naivety of it. Come on get real how many I wonder US folk here in Thailand swear they have a high enough pension when they have none or inxufficiant, hmm maybe just the odd one or two do you think. Sorry this is plain crass naivity. An idealistic view of mankind's honesty. Sure I do believe that probavbly over 70% of folk are very honest but 30% is still a very significant number. Will the US immigration trust me if I swear I have a million pounds and want to live in the USA ??

I must add I am not anti US and have many yankee friends but this is one of those holier than thou attitudes that I do not like. Don't worry the Brits are guilty of this in other areas too. Alll I am saying is we should all be singing from the same hymn book.

One of the many beauties about being American is that you are raised under the "innocent until proven guilty" idea. We don't claim that someone is a crook and then wait to have him prove it otherwise. This is a cornerstone of the American legal system. During any legal proceeding, all participants simply are required to "swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth". Same that happens in the embassy. You sign a statement swearing the truth, and that is all that is required. It has nothing to do with "honesty monopolies" or better citizens. It's the American system that everyone is entitled to. If you're not American, then it doesn't apply to you. Get over it!

Legally speaking when arrested for a crime in the US, you are neither innocent nor guilty, you are a 'suspect'. You are not presumed innocent, otherwise there would be no authority to arrest. You aren't innocent until the case is closed and verdict of 'not guilty' is entered into the record. Same as in most countries.

You often hear Americans contrast their legal system with the 'Napoleonic Code' (early legal basis for French law and passed on to most Latin American countries today) in a manner that suggests Napoleonic law presumed guilt, but that's another myth. Even under period-perfect Napoleonic Code, the legal structure did not encode a de jure presumption of guilt, e.g., the juror's oath explicitly recommended that the jury not betray the interests of the defendants, and there was much attention paid to the means of defense.

Just another couple of great American myths.

[Krub]

I'm curious to learn what happened to Twin yesterday when he tried to extend his Retirement Visa. He didn't have 800K in his account 3 months ago and didn't know if he was going to get any hassles yesterday.

Hi Ned.

I had no problems at all.

The report is here.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=86709

The supervisor told me next year I needed to have the money in the account 3 months ahead of renewal.

But when she looked through my passbook and saw 5 deposits over the last 2 years with steady drainage, she said, "For you, no problem".

I'll wait until next June to decide if I want to put the money in 3 months early. Things may change again before then!

Twin

Hi Twin

Was that in Bangkok ?

[Twin]

Yes, I went to Suan Phlu.

[tim77]

One of the many beauties about being American is that you are raised under the "innocent until proven guilty" idea. We don't claim that someone is a crook and then wait to have him prove it otherwise. This is a cornerstone of the American legal system. During any legal proceeding, all participants simply are required to "swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth". Same that happens in the embassy. You sign a statement swearing the truth, and that is all that is required. It has nothing to do with "honesty monopolies" or better citizens. It's the American system that everyone is entitled to. If you're not American, then it doesn't apply to you. Get over it!

Legally speaking when arrested for a crime in the US, you are neither innocent nor guilty, you are a 'suspect'. You are not presumed innocent, otherwise there would be no authority to arrest. You aren't innocent until the case is closed and verdict of 'not guilty' is entered into the record. Same as in most countries.

You often hear Americans contrast their legal system with the 'Napoleonic Code' (early legal basis for French law and passed on to most Latin American countries today) in a manner that suggests Napoleonic law presumed guilt, but that's another myth. Even under period-perfect Napoleonic Code, the legal structure did not encode a de jure presumption of guilt, e.g., the juror's oath explicitly recommended that the jury not betray the interests of the defendants, and there was much attention paid to the means of defense.

Just another couple of great American myths.

You are utterly incorrect in your statement that in the United States the "presumption of innocence" is a myth. The United States Supreme Court has repeated and emphatically made it clear that the "presumption of innocence" is an essential part of the Due Process provisions of the 14th Amendment

to the United States Constitution.

I recognize that neither your comment nor my reply have anything to do with this topic. Still accuracy is important.

Edited October 4, 2006 by tim77

[Noel]

I'm curious to learn what happened to Twin yesterday when he tried to extend his Retirement Visa. He didn't have 800K in his account 3 months ago and didn't know if he was going to get any hassles yesterday.

Hi Ned.

I had no problems at all.

The report is here.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=86709

The supervisor told me next year I needed to have the money in the account 3 months ahead of renewal.

But when she looked through my passbook and saw 5 deposits over the last 2 years with steady drainage, she said, "For you, no problem".

I'll wait until next June to decide if I want to put the money in 3 months early. Things may change again before then!

Twin

Glad to learn that commonsense prevailed Twin, and thanks for taking the trouble to post your report: much appreciated.

[LoveDaBlues]

To clarify about the monthly 'pension' required.

I've never seen the word 'pension' on the Thai Embassy site; perhaps I've overlooked it. Anyway, below is the exact wording from here:

http://www.thaiembdc.org/consular/visa/retirementvisa.html

2.4 A copy of a bank statement showing a deposit at the amount equal to no less than 800,000 Baht, or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly salary of no less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income of no less than 800,000 Baht a year.

Also, I have a document given to me by Immigration which lists the requirements to apply for the retirement visa. It uses the term 'monthly income' and nowhere does it use the term 'pension'.

I'm sure someone will come along with a link that uses the term 'pension'. BUT it's a moot point and I think a lot of people are confused and they think you must have a 'pension' to apply for the retirement visa. This just isn't the case. Immigration doesn't care about the SOURCE of the income (pension, annuity, business payments, etc.) they just want to know that you HAVE an income of 65K.

To clarify about the US Embassy and the income statement

Some posters have been critical because the US Embassy does not 'verify' the income sworn to on the 'Letter of Certification' also called the 'income statement'. Obviously, they have not read this document. NOWHERE on the form does the Embassy SAY they have/will verify the income. The form simply says roughly this: this American Citizen who holds passport number XXXXXXXX 'affirms' that he receives US$XXXX every month.

Don't blame the Embassy because they were smart enough to word the form in a manner that keeps their workload down. Thai Immigration accepts this form but from my experience they don't really give it much weight. With Immigration it's SHOW ME THE MONEY!

[Firefan]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

[SPALAX]

I AM LEAVING THAILAND ON THE 6TH OF OCTOBER AND WILL COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

THE 180 DAYS PERIOD RUNS BETWEEN THE 30TH OF APRIL AND THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

DURING THIS PERIOD I WILL HAVE STAYED 93 DAYS ON FOUR VOA.

DOES ANYBODY KNOWS IF I HAVE TO LOOK FOR A 90 DAYS VISA FOR THE NEXT TIME OR IF I CAN COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER WITH A VOA.

THANKS

[sbk]

I AM LEAVING THAILAND ON THE 6TH OF OCTOBER AND WILL COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

THE 180 DAYS PERIOD RUNS BETWEEN THE 30TH OF APRIL AND THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

DURING THIS PERIOD I WILL HAVE STAYED 93 DAYS ON FOUR VOA.

DOES ANYBODY KNOWS IF I HAVE TO LOOK FOR A 90 DAYS VISA FOR THE NEXT TIME OR IF I CAN COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER WITH A VOA.

THANKS

I'll be the first, please don't post in all capital letters, it is considered to be shouting and is considered quite rude in forum life. Thanks.

Now, my understanding is that this isn't retroactive but I could be wrong. Someone from the Norwegian embassy posted a few pages back that they were told that it would not be retroactive but then, again, someone else posted (sunbelt maybe?) that it would be retroactive.

Seems to me that you would be wiser to apply for a tourist visa and thus reduce your chances of not being admitted.

[LoveDaBlues]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

[PREM-R]

I AM LEAVING THAILAND ON THE 6TH OF OCTOBER AND WILL COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

THE 180 DAYS PERIOD RUNS BETWEEN THE 30TH OF APRIL AND THE 30TH OF OCTOBER.

DURING THIS PERIOD I WILL HAVE STAYED 93 DAYS ON FOUR VOA.

DOES ANYBODY KNOWS IF I HAVE TO LOOK FOR A 90 DAYS VISA FOR THE NEXT TIME OR IF I CAN COME BACK ON THE 30TH OF OCTOBER WITH A VOA.

THANKS

I'll be the first, please don't post in all capital letters, it is considered to be shouting and is considered quite rude in forum life. Thanks.

Now, my understanding is that this isn't retroactive but I could be wrong. Someone from the Norwegian embassy posted a few pages back that they were told that it would not be retroactive but then, again, someone else posted (sunbelt maybe?) that it would be retroactive.

Seems to me that you would be wiser to apply for a tourist visa and thus reduce your chances of not being admitted.

Isn't it quite ridiculous that something as important as immigration policy change, a change that 'allegedly' came into force 3 days ago, is still a matter of conjecture. Where is the anouncement, on 'Garuda' headed paper, that outlines the rule changes and states if they are 'as of' 1st. October or retroactive?

TiT

[Twin]

Isn't it quite ridiculous that something as important as immigration policy change, a change that 'allegedly' came into force 3 days ago, is still a matter of conjecture. Where is the anouncement, on 'Garuda' headed paper, that outlines the rule changes and states if they are 'as of' 1st. October or retroactive?

TiT

Here it is.

http://www.lawyer.th.com/National_Police_O...er_Oct_2006.pdf

Edited October 4, 2006 by Twin

[my benny rai]

This is not an attack, more a jovial observation that needs confirmation.

As one poster said, the new marriage visa laws work in his favor because his wife supports him. So, am I correct in thinking that...

if a foreign man is legally married to a Thai woman who makes over 40,000 baht per month, he does not have to work or declare any money or have money in the bank and can simply apply for a Non Immigrant O Visa by showing her income and tax slips??? Is it really that easy or is there a catch?

So all such a man like that has to do is get on a plane to Penang, apply for a Non Immigrant O Visa with the required papers and basically declare that he is getting supported by her?

What papers are now needed to apply for such a visa?

[silverhawk_usa]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

I have posted this same response a number of times at various places in this forum regarding the retirement visa and a Thai bank account, so I am sorry if you have read it before.

I renewed my retirement visa in Chiang Mai for the 3rd time last month. I originally received my first one in the U.S. So I am now on my FOURTH visa.

I have NEVER had a sum in the Thai Bank coming anywhere near the listed amounts. The requirements are EITHER/OR.......

For my first renewal I took proof of pension to the U.S. Emabassy, as stated in many posts above they were not too interested in the proof but gave me the affidavit attesting to my claimed income.

To say that Thai Immigration does not give much weight to this letter is LUDICROUS! That is the ONLY thing they have checked for my income requirements in the past three renewals. Thai Immigration told me the first time I applied that I could just copy that letter for each subsequent renewal, that I did not need a new letter each year, and that is what I have done. Last month I had a meager 30,000 baht in my Thai Bank Account and although they do want a copy of the bank book I had absolutely no problems as my pension made up for the rest of the 800,000 baht.

I have seen so many OP talk about the REQUIRED money in a Thai Bank and this is absolutely false if you can show the other income to make up the difference.

My pension is "average" for an American and there is nothing else "outstanding" about my application that would lead me to beleive I am being treated any different than anyone else who meets the requirements. My last renewal (extension of stay) with a multiple entry permit took 2 hours to process.

[Krub]

I think the problem is at many embassies they will not issue the letter if one does NOT have a pension - as anything else is less certain. So I agree; emmigration don't care whether pension or other income - but hard to prove other income. Cheers!

The US Embassy will NOTORIZE a document. Surely the other Embassies will do the same? For a person NOT having a pension he can create a statement of income (from whatever source) notorized by his Embassy. As the Thai Immigration don't seem to put much weight on this form anyway (in my opinion) they would most likely accept this.

To me it's pretty simple; Immigration wants to see the required money in the Thai bank and proof that it came from a foreign source.

Farangs have been playing 'move the money' (from account to account to account etc.) and Thai Immigration is tired of it so they are tightening things up.

Yes Immigration has accepted a 'sworn Affidavit' made at the Embassy.

I did this at the Embassy in Tokyo (for my convenience) instead of asking for the 'letter' from the embassy in Bangkok.

The affidavit simply states that Mr XXX declares that ......he has an income of x from x source resides at XXX etc.

Yes we are paying the price of tighther rules because a few have abused the system by simply borrowing or moving the money around.

They now want us to have the 800k for 3 months in the account.

The same goes for the 30 days stamp on arrival. This was abused and now we are all paying by not being able to stay longer than 90 days within 180 days on that basis.

[PREM-R]

Isn't it quite ridiculous that something as important as immigration policy change, a change that 'allegedly' came into force 3 days ago, is still a matter of conjecture. Where is the anouncement, on 'Garuda' headed paper, that outlines the rule changes and states if they are 'as of' 1st. October or retroactive?

TiT

Here it is.

http://www.lawyer.th.com/National_Police_O...er_Oct_2006.pdf

Thanks for the link but this presents as many questions as it answers, (still no mention of if the rules will be retroactive).

With regards to a tourist (TR) visa it states:

7.3 In the case of Tourist

Permitted for not more

than 30 days per visit but

shall not exceed 90 days

in total.

Surely this is not correct, a TR visa (single entry) is valid for 60 days from entry and may be extended for a further 30 days at a cost of 1,900 baht.

[SPALAX]

Isn't it quite ridiculous that something as important as immigration policy change, a change that 'allegedly' came into force 3 days ago, is still a matter of conjecture. Where is the anouncement, on 'Garuda' headed paper, that outlines the rule changes and states if they are 'as of' 1st. October or retroactive?

TiT

Here it is.

http://www.lawyer.th.com/National_Police_O...er_Oct_2006.pdf

<Well thanks. Unfortunately I am french. Everything in the document is quite clear but I really do not understand if the order is retroactive or not.

[Thaiquila]

Excuse me once again, but I see NO EVIDENCE that immigration is now requiring the 800K to be in the bank account 3 months in advance for those retirees providing a document about their income source. Or did I get this wrong?

Having annual income

combined with the saving

money in the Bank not less than

800,000 Baht from on the date

submitting the application.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Thaiquila