Usufruct or loan?

[Kenny202]

I looked into this some time ago with a legal firm and it all got too hard. My wife and I wish to buy a property. For example property value 1 mill baht. I put in 70% and she puts in 30%. Obviously the property will be in her name. To protect myself I have 2 choices. A usufruct or me recorded as loaning her 700 k thb on the chanote. Usufruct guarantees me i can live there forever but what if we split after 5 years and I want to get my money back and leave the country? I'm stuck

My questions would be

*could we have a loan (mortgage) recorded against the chanote that she had a debt with me for 700k?

*Could it be a condition of the loan that I could force the sale of the home at anytime to recover my debt?

*if so how can I force her to sell. After 3 months if not sold home is auctioned? (Otherwise she could just say forever nobody wants to buy the home)

*Would it be possible to build some interest component into the loan so I can get some capital growth should we have the home for a long period

*if not could we simply have an agreement recorded against the chanote where I an force sale at any given time and get 70% of the sale price

Any help or ideas appreciated

[Supaluke]

Well, my first question is, what did the legal firm suggest 'before it all got too hard'?

[Kenny202]

Well, my first question is, what did the legal firm suggest 'before it all got too hard'?

Is that one of those "I don't know the answer but I'll throw a rhetorical question out there and appear like I do" posts? It's irrelevant what they suggested. They didn't understand my requirements for starters

[chiang mai]

You could do both, a loan agreement (mortgage) and an usufruct although that could be misconstrued as her being your proxy, which is illegal. Hmm, I guess I might go with the loan agreement although the previous poster does have a point, you probably ought to discuss this with a decent lawyer. Just thinking aloud here: if you went with the mortgage/loan approach and there was no history of repayments (70% + 30% means there is no loan), I wonder if the courts wouldn't see that as suspicious.

[trogers]

A loan agreement between husband and wife?

[Crossy]

A loan agreement between husband and wife?

Indeed, I suspect this could fall under the 'contracts between spouses can be cancelled by either party at any time' rule (sorry don't have the exact wording, but you get my drift) it's a potential issue with usufructs and leases too.

There have been reports that despite the foreigner not being permitted to own property (let's not differentiate house and land) the divorce courts have split 50-50 anyway.

[MaeJoMTB]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

[technologybytes]

Usufruct is your only sensible option.

A loan recorded on the chanote would only prevent the sale of the property, and a usufruct will also do that.

[technologybytes]

There have been reports that despite the foreigner not being permitted to own property (let's not differentiate house and land) the divorce courts have split 50-50 anyway.

I do not want to appear overly negative here.. I have often heard of divorce courts ordering the sale of a property be split 50/50, however I have yet too see an instance of it actually happening and the foreigner getting paid. A ruling in a divorce court does not mean you get paid, it means the other party can appeal, delay, lie or whatever. In such a case the lawyers are the only winners.

Honestly, don't put more into Thailand than you are prepared to lose. That's the best advice.

[trogers]

Buy a condo with both your names on the title deed. You send money in from overseas for half the condo's value.

Spilt 50/50 upon a divorce.

[nithisa78]

if you're thinking about what if we get divorced, don't do it.

[zeekgarcia]

I just wrote a detailed response to your question but this website system lost it when I hit add reply. I do nto have the time to type it all again, for others out there I suggest before you hit the add reply button to copy your reply then hit the add reply button for if the website loses your reply, you can paste it again and try again without losing your reply.

Edited November 30, 2015 by zeekgarcia

[zeekgarcia]

This is my reply to this topic http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/780582-house-in-name-of-foreigner-does-mortgage-matter/

1. You need to find out usually for the amount of money that you want to spend on a house, how many years the loan repayment will be, then you need to find out how likely it is that you will live longer than the repayment of the loan.

If you are likely to live longer than the loan repayment then forget your current plan.

If you are not likely to outlive the loan repayment then you need to adjust your plan by telling your wife that you will split the cost 50/50 meaning that you will pay 50% of the deposit, then each month you will pay 50% of the monthly loan payment, so do not pay anything up front other than only 50% of the deposit, if you want some form of security in this!

But even then you must keep in mind that you are only renting! And you must not spend more than you can walk away from like if you were renting!

But also remember that this is still no guarantee that she will not cheat on you behind your back in the future.

2. IF you want your OWN house then do not involve your wife in the deal and do not find any land around her family.

You need to find someone else that is not related to your wife or even any type of a friend of your wife, that can either buy the land you want in cash or can get a loan and buy some empty vacant land.

Then once all the paperwork is done and the deed/title is in their name.

Then you need to find out if it is possible to get a usufruct "see the ask the lawyer section for the thai wording for usufruct" for this land and in the usufruct agreement you will pay the monthly loan payments until the loan is paid off then you will not pay any more for the life of the usufruct.

Then after you have the usufruct, then get a builder to build a house on the land

Then you have to make an announcement in the newspaper as above for 30 days to see if anyone objects or makes claims to the land. Then you go back to land office and get a title for the house which will prove that you own the house but not the land. But you have the usufruct giving you the right to use the land.

If you involve your wife or any of her relatives or close friends in the land deal and everything goes wrong in the future then you may have papers saying that you own the house but her relatives/friends/etc could persuade you to leave town or you could die unexpectedly.

So either go 50/50 ONLY if you can walk away from what you are paying or find someone else that is not her relatives, friends, etc and do not get land near her relatives and you should be ok, IF you have a valid long term visa plan in place.

Report how everything goes!

Edited November 30, 2015 by zeekgarcia

[Kenny202]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

[Singharh]

If she has a bank account build some credibility with the bank for a year....you pay the deposit and let her apply for a mortgage in her name and you pay the monthly payments. If you get divorced then only thing you lose is the deposit and she sits with the mortgage.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Kenny 202

I have recently completed a property purchase like the one you want to undertake.

My story is here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/852680-a-screaming-bargainor-notadvice-needed-regarding-buying-an-unfinished-house/

My solution, which worked perfectly was to have both a MOU, Loan Agreement, and Usufruct in place using copies in both English and Thai.

Send me a PM (private message) if you want the details.

Cheers

BD

[Old Croc]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

It may have saved posters, trying to help you, time and effort if you had been more accurate with relevant facts.

[cracker1]

There is nothing preventing you owning the house one hundred percent. Your wife's Mortgage of 30% can be registered on the Chanote as should be your renewable lease of the land.

[Kenny202]

There is nothing preventing you owning the house one hundred percent. Your wife's Mortgage of 30% can be registered on the Chanote as should be your renewable lease of the land.

farang can't own property in Thailand or am I missing something?

[cracker1]

There is nothing preventing you owning the house one hundred percent. Your wife's Mortgage of 30% can be registered on the Chanote as should be your renewable lease of the land.

farang can't own property in Thailand or am I missing something?

I think you are missing something ? Farang can own property including Houses, Hotels, Shopping Centers, Cars and trucks etc.

Farang generally, can not own land.

[Jip99]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

So why did you refer to "wife" in the OP?

Drop the idea of "we".

[offset]

There is nothing preventing you owning the house one hundred percent. Your wife's Mortgage of 30% can be registered on the Chanote as should be your renewable lease of the land.

farang can't own property in Thailand or am I missing something?

Farang can own a house but cannot own the land it sits on

You forget this is Thailand

[chilli42]

If this is your concern then rental is the best option - it's cheap and safe. Much to be said for it.

Have you considered a condominium? Has all he adantages of owning land and house and you can own it outright or share with your wife.

The ONLY reason in Thailand to buy land is to seek capital gains (OK there is some other intangible BS but none of it worth the risk and how you are going to feel later). It should not only be about getting your original money back but be about securing your capital gain on sale. Have you considered having a Thai company where you own 49% and your wife 30% (the rest of the shares being held by Thai nominees beholding to you (not your wife's freinds and family ... duh). Also, you need to get your hands on the land title deed after you purchase and lock it up in a bank box where your wife can never have access to it ... not ever. It's not especially difficult to have the name on a title deed changed without your knowledge. If this is not an attractive alternative please reread this post starting with recommendation #1

[Maestro]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

Are you saying that you are not married to the person to whom you referred as your wife your opening post of this topic?

[chiang mai]

I think a lot of people refer to their long term partner as their wife, I know I do and I didn't read the post at the outset that the OP was indeed legally married, but that's just me.

[bangkoklawyer24]

There is nothing preventing you owning the house one hundred percent. Your wife's Mortgage of 30% can be registered on the Chanote as should be your renewable lease of the land.

farang can't own property in Thailand or am I missing something?

I think you are missing something ? Farang can own property including Houses, Hotels, Shopping Centers, Cars and trucks etc.

Farang generally, can not own land.

Foreigners can't own house ownership in Thailand, because house ownership is linked by the Civil & Commercial Code to land ownership and foreign land ownership is prohibited under the Land Code. Separate house ownership strictly requires a Superficies, duly registered on the backside of the title deed. No Superficies, no house ownership.

[swissie]

If only 1 square wah of land is involved in the deal, a Farang is not allowed to grant a Thai National a loan in connection with landed property.

BECAUSE: If the Thai Party defaults, the Farang Lender will become the "de Facto" owner of the land. Illegal in the first place.

Cheers.

[trogers]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

So why did you refer to "wife" in the OP?

Drop the idea of "we".

Like in the Thai saying, "What is yours, is mine, and what is mine, is mine...".

[Kenny202]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

So why did you refer to "wife" in the OP?

Drop the idea of "we".

Yes I did say wife. My bad. A girlfriend of 2 months here everyone calls wife. Using the term loosely when asking for a legal ruling clearly stupid. My apollogies

[chiang mai]

What trogers says,

You can't make a binding contract with your wife.

Get a home loan from a bank, keep your money overseas.

The only way to protect your money, is to not let her have it.

were not registered or even village married

So why did you refer to "wife" in the OP?

Drop the idea of "we".

Yes I did say wife. My bad. A girlfriend of 2 months here everyone calls wife. Using the term loosely when asking for a legal ruling clearly stupid. My apollogies

Two months!!!!!

Troll.