Spouse visas and 5yr visitor visas

[ilgitano]

Hi all,

I have been married to my thai gf of 11 years for a year now. I've been living with her on pretty much alternate years for the last 8 or so years.

I applied for a visitors visa for 6 months, which she got. That was a year ago, she was with me for six months and returned in may (2015)

We applied for a second visitors visa which was turned down. That was admittedly my fault: I read duration of stay 180 days and assumed the visa worked like thai visas. The visa was issued a week earlier however and she stayed for 179 days, resulting in a one week overstay. We had no clue about that until we reapplied and got turned down for not explaining that.

Two reasons were given: no explanation for the one week overstay and insufficient evidence that she will return. It will be difficult to prove that she will return because she is wholly supported by me, though she does have land and some rental income, which was documented. We can't supply any more evidence than we have.

On her first visit, she was detained at heathrow airport for 6 hours on suspicion she is not a visitor.

Why is this? I clearly meet the financial threshold, rented accommodation is ready, I have been employed here in the UK for 2 years now.

I would have thought that applying for a visitors visa would be just a rubber stamp. We can either apply for a family visit visa or a spouse visa. The fact that we're applying for a visit visa then implies she must be a visitor since we have free choice about what visa type to use, and have clearly chosen visitor. She has no need for deceit.

Are the standards of proof for a spouse much higher than for a visit visa? If I supplied all the support documents showing that we could get a spouse visa, then stating that we want a visit visa, not a spouse visa, will that be accepted as sufficient evidence that she wants to return, by clear choice?

Also, at her initial interview, the interviewer asked why she wasn't applying for a spouse visa. This also came up when she was detained at heathrow. Am I missing something here? This is a family visit visa, what I want is for her to be able to freely visit, and up to six months a year works fine for us. I don't get why we can't just get a five or ten year visa that lets her do that.

Getting a spouse visa limits her the other way, she cannot be out of the UK for extended periods of time, and puts her on a path to residency she isn't that interested in. Does have the advantage that she can go to school and work here though.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Right now, looks like we're being forced to spouse visa.

Also, as part of the spouse visa documents required: She is hill tribe, Laos border, Akha. She was married per hill tribe customs, and has two adult children by that. No paperwork exists for that of course, so by thai law she was never married. A spouse visa requires that we prove any prior marriages have broken down iretrievably. How do we go about that? Do I just get documents from the amphur showing that her only recorded marriage is to me or something? How do we explain two adult children?

[ilgitano]

Long post, sorry. By the way, this is about UK visas. Been stuck there for the last 2 1/2 years on a 9-5 job. No more year working / year in LOS.

Edited December 15, 2015 by ilgitano

[theoldgit]

A spouse visa is for an applicant who intends to settle in the UK, and yes the evidence required is totally different, she, or you as her sponsor, would need to satisfy the financial requirements, she would need to pass a simple spoken English test, take a medical examination to prove she's clear of TB.

That visa is only valid for three months, on arrival in the UK she would need to collect a residence permit which allows her to live in the UK, that permit has to be collected within 30 days of the visa being issued.

She doesn't need to be married to apply for a spouse visa, as long as you can prove that you've been living together in a relationship akin to marriage, that is sufficient.

As you've discovered a general visit visa only allows a holder to stay in the UK for six months in any year. These visas are designed for actual visitors, not those who wish to spend longer periods in the UK, if the ECO or Border Force Officer suspect the visa holder is trying to use a visit visa to bypass the settlement route, they could, and can, deny enty.

[ilgitano]

A spouse visa is for an applicant who intends to settle in the UK, and yes the evidence required is totally different, she, or you as her sponsor, would need to satisfy the financial requirements, she would need to pass a simple spoken English test, take a medical examination to prove she's clear of TB.

That visa is only valid for three months, on arrival in the UK she would need to collect a residence permit which allows her to live in the UK, that permit has to be collected within 30 days of the visa being issued.

She doesn't need to be married to apply for a spouse visa, as long as you can prove that you've been living together in a relationship akin to marriage, that is sufficient.

As you've discovered a general visit visa only allows a holder to stay in the UK for six months in any year. These visas are designed for actual visitors, not those who wish to spend longer periods in the UK, if the ECO or Border Force Officer suspect the visa holder is trying to use a visit visa to bypass the settlement route, they could, and can, deny enty.

Thanlks,

Looks like you've nailed the why, but I don't understand it. No questions have been raised about the reality of our marriage. Based on that I would have thought that we would have a free choice of visit visa, up to 6 mo each and settlement visa. So, yes, in effect we want to 'bypass' the settlement visa. What we would like to get is the 5 or 10 year multiple visit visa. 6 mo/yr is quite acceptable to us (she would visit anywhere from a few weeks to 6 months. Understandably her first few visits might be nearer the 6 months end.

We don't want the settlement visa, because that locks her in the other way, she can't spend less than 6 mo a year in the UK, and will only be allowed about 5 years, then MUST apply for permanent residence. Not what we are looking for.

Why is this not allowed?

The assumption seems to be that she wants to use it to cheat the system and sneak in. That to me seems to be patently absurd, since she has legitimate claim to a spouse visa, and the costs are about the same for a 5-10 visit and initial settlement. What am I missing?

Admittedly, I have applied twice for two single entry 6 month visas, at £85 each. I applied for those to 'test the water', and they turn arround in two weeks. Are they maybe assuming that I'm trying to get her in on the cheap, and then not return?

These visas exist: vist visas, 5-10 years, 6 months/year visitors. Used to be in family now merged into general visitor. How do we get one?

[ilgitano]

I'm inclined to put the above reasoning into a request for reconsideration and highlight that this is clearly a section 8 (human rights, EC 'right to a family life') matter.

Based on:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/424016/considering_hr_claims_from_visitors_guidance_v1_0_ext.pdf

So:

1. Would this be a good idea?

2. Where do I send such a request-for-reconsideration?

3. Any formatting requirements?

Edited December 16, 2015 by ilgitano

[beano2274]

how can it be Right of a Family life if you only want her to stay for six months? If you want her to stay permanently there is the Settlement Visa, so how are Human Rights disregarded?

[7by7]

The problem you and she have is that you are married and have been together for 11 years.

You live in the UK, she in Thailand.

OK, you say that she does not want to live in the UK with you, only wants to visit; but why should the ECO believe you? Most married couples want to live together, especially if they have been together as long as you.

I am not saying that you are attempting to use visit visas to bypass the settlement route; but others have tried to do so and the burden of proof that you do not intend to do the same rests with you and your wife.

You have to convince the ECO that she really is a genuine visitor and is definitely not attempting to use a visit visa to by pass the settlement route.

Saying that the cost of a long term visa is about the same as the cost of a settlement visa is not enough. There are other costs involved in settlement, the NHS surcharge, the FLR and ILR applications, the various required English and LitUK tests, which are not incurred in a visit application, even a 10 year one.

Plus, the requirements for settlement, as theoldgit says above, are harder than they are for a visit; especially the financial one.

I don't think you have any chance of success going down the human rights route.

Firstly, as Beano says, it is your choice to live apart. If you do want to live together in the UK then she should apply for settlement.

Secondly, Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right

ARTICLE 8
Right to respect for private and family life
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family
life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the
exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the
law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of
national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the
country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection
of health or morals,

Signatory countries, including the UK, have successfully argued in the European Court of Human Rights that their visa regime is covered by the parts I have highlighted.

If she does apply for and be granted a settlement visa she would not be imprisoned in the UK for 5 years!

There is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Although when applying for each she would need to show that she is a UK resident; which may be difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in.

Once she has ILR then she can leave the UK for any period up to 2 years; if she was out of the UK for longer than that her ILR would lapse and she would need the appropriate visa to enter the UK again.

Of course, if, once she had ILR, she applied for naturalisation as British then, like any other British citizen, she could leave the UK for as long as she wished and always be allowed back in.

The residential requirements for that are tougher than for ILR, though. As she is the spouse of a British citizen she must have been legally in the UK on the exact date three years before her application is received and during that three years have spent no more than 270 days out of the UK with no more than 90 days in the final year.

[bobrussell]

There is not a visa type for what you require! I believe there should be but there just isn't.

You will have a problem with reasons to return unless you can provide plenty of evidence for your wife to return to Thailand at the end of a visit. The lifestyle of being married but living apart much of the time does not fit in with immigration law. Either the rules need to change (but won't) or your lifestyle will.

Someone staying in the UK for six months, then going back does not fit with their interpretation of a visit and settlement does not fit with the pattern you have!

A few days overstaying by mistake is not the end of the world generally so it is the issue of whether you can prove your wife is really a visitor. I don't see a clear way forward beyond trying to convince an ECO that your wife will return to Thailand.

More likely you will have to spend more time in Thailand or get your wife to settle in the UK as suggested by 7by7. Rock and a hard place!

[ilgitano]

how can it be Right of a Family life if you only want her to stay for six months? If you want her to stay permanently there is the Settlement Visa, so how are Human Rights disregarded?

The idea is that I stay here, working and we save money. We have land, and want to save to build on it, maybe set up a business for retirement of some kind. We can save a lot more if she is not here with me, her cost of living in thailand is much less than if she was living here. We have already spent long periods apart while I have worked here in the UK over the last 11 years, a year to 18 months being fairly typical. We maintain nearly continuous contact, calling, Line and Skype pretty much daily. So, we have our reasons.

The problem you and she have is that you are married and have been together for 11 years.

You live in the UK, she in Thailand.

OK, you say that she does not want to live in the UK with you, only wants to visit; but why should the ECO believe you? Most married couples want to live together, especially if they have been together as long as you.

I am not saying that you are attempting to use visit visas to bypass the settlement route; but others have tried to do so and the burden of proof that you do not intend to do the same rests with you and your wife.

You have to convince the ECO that she really is a genuine visitor and is definitely not attempting to use a visit visa to by pass the settlement route.

Saying that the cost of a long term visa is about the same as the cost of a settlement visa is not enough. There are other costs involved in settlement, the NHS surcharge, the FLR and ILR applications, the various required English and LitUK tests, which are not incurred in a visit application, even a 10 year one.

Plus, the requirements for settlement, as theoldgit says above, are harder than they are for a visit; especially the financial one.

I don't think you have any chance of success going down the human rights route.

Firstly, as Beano says, it is your choice to live apart. If you do want to live together in the UK then she should apply for settlement.

Secondly, Article 8 of the ECHR is a qualified right

ARTICLE 8

Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family

life, his home and his correspondence.

2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the

exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the

law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of

national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the

country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection

of health or morals,

Signatory countries, including the UK, have successfully argued in the European Court of Human Rights that their visa regime is covered by the parts I have highlighted.

If she does apply for and be granted a settlement visa she would not be imprisoned in the UK for 5 years!

There is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Although when applying for each she would need to show that she is a UK resident; which may be difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in.

Once she has ILR then she can leave the UK for any period up to 2 years; if she was out of the UK for longer than that her ILR would lapse and she would need the appropriate visa to enter the UK again.

Of course, if, once she had ILR, she applied for naturalisation as British then, like any other British citizen, she could leave the UK for as long as she wished and always be allowed back in.

The residential requirements for that are tougher than for ILR, though. As she is the spouse of a British citizen she must have been legally in the UK on the exact date three years before her application is received and during that three years have spent no more than 270 days out of the UK with no more than 90 days in the final year.

You say there is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Can you point me to some references for that? I have been trying to find further information on that.

My understanding is that she can only apply for FLR twice for a total of 5 years, then must apply for ILR or be denied further right to enter? And to get ILR she must not have exited the UK for longer than 6 months in any 12 month interval. Now stuck the other way - she cannot leave for more than 6 months.

The documentation requirements for spouse actually don't add much to the document pack that is needed for a visit visa: Proof that previous marriages are finished, english language, and TB screening. About 10 pages. If I add these and make the point that this is sufficient for a spouse visa, but we only want the visit visa? Then she is leaving by clear choice. Chose to visit, not to settle. Would that work?

It occurs to me we could go the settlement route, and at the end failing to get FLR (not in the country enough) would probably be evidence enough that a visit visa is what we need.

Edited December 16, 2015 by ilgitano

[ilgitano]

Looks like spouse visa is the way to go then. Any answers for the following?

"As part of the spouse visa documents required: She is hill tribe, Laos border, Akha. She was married per hill tribe customs, and has two adult children by that. No paperwork exists for that of course, so by thai law she was never married. A spouse visa requires that we prove any prior marriages have broken down iretrievably. How do we go about that? Do I just get documents from the amphur showing that her only recorded marriage is to me or something? How do we explain two adult children?"

[stuartsko]

Looks like spouse visa is the way to go then. Any answers for the following?

"As part of the spouse visa documents required: She is hill tribe, Laos border, Akha. She was married per hill tribe customs, and has two adult children by that. No paperwork exists for that of course, so by thai law she was never married. A spouse visa requires that we prove any prior marriages have broken down iretrievably. How do we go about that? Do I just get documents from the amphur showing that her only recorded marriage is to me or something? How do we explain two adult children?"

If there is no paperwork then there was no previous marriage... Just ignore the fact, people can have kids out of wedlock.. Nothing to worry about really

[Richard W]

She was married per hill tribe customs, and has two adult children by that. No paperwork exists for that of course, so by thai law she was never married.

If there is no paperwork then there was no previous marriage... Just ignore the fact, people can have kids out of wedlock.. Nothing to worry about really

And indeed, it's a very common practice in Thailand. Unlike England, where nowadays the customary marriage is often omitted as well. My wife was shocked by the English immorality of just setting up home together, though it seems to me that Thailand is following the same path.

[7by7]

<snip>

You (7by7) say there is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Can you point me to some references for that? I have been trying to find further information on that.

There is nothing in the immigration rules or any guidance to say that there is a maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst meeting the residential qualification for either FLR or ILR. If there were such a limit then it would be in one or the other; probably both.

The only mention is that ILR will lapse if the holder spends a continuous period of 2 years or more outside the UK.

My understanding is that she can only apply for FLR twice for a total of 5 years, then must apply for ILR or be denied further right to enter? And to get ILR she must not have exited the UK for longer than 6 months in any 12 month interval. Now stuck the other way - she cannot leave for more than 6 months.

Your understanding is incorrect.

At present, there is no limit on the number of times someone can apply for FLR if they have not yet met all the requirements for ILR; usually because they have yet to pass the LitUK test.

Both the previous coalition government and the Labour one before that talked about introducing such a limit; but so far nothing has come of such talk.

As said, there is no limit on time spent out of the UK whilst meeting the residential qualification for both FLR and ILR; with the caveat that the applicant does need to show that they are, and have been for the period, a UK resident.

One of the reasons for this is to allow foreign spouses/partners to accompany their British spouse/partner if they are posted abroad temporarily and then apply for FLR or ILR, whichever is appropriate, at the end of their current visa or Leave to Remain after returning home.

However, if their current visa or LTR were to expire whilst they were out of the UK, then they would need to apply for a new visa and start the whole process again.

The documentation requirements for spouse actually don't add much to the document pack that is needed for a visit visa: Proof that previous marriages are finished, english language, and TB screening. About 10 pages.

Plus the necessary documents to show that the financial requirement is met.

If I add these and make the point that this is sufficient for a spouse visa, but we only want the visit visa? Then she is leaving by clear choice. Chose to visit, not to settle. Would that work?

It occurs to me we could go the settlement route, and at the end failing to get FLR (not in the country enough) would probably be evidence enough that a visit visa is what we need.

If a visit visa is what she wants, then a visit visa is what she should apply for. The ECO is not going to refuse a spouse application but issue a visit visa instead.

If she were to be refused FLR or ILR for some reason, then I suspect any ECO would view a subsequent visit visa with suspicion; possibly seeing it as an attempt to get back into the UK and remain after the visit visa had expired.

I know that bobrussell says, and has said before, that there is not a type of visa for what you require. But IMHO he is wrong, there is; a visit visa.

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

She would need to show strong ties to Thailand and also satisfactorily explain why she does not want to live in the UK with her husband but only visit him once a year. Saying why you do not want to, or cannot, live in Thailand with her would help here, too.

Difficult to do, I know; but others have managed it.

[bobrussell]

In theory a visit visa should serve the purpose, but it is clear that ECO's are very reluctant to issue them for extended and repeated visits such as this. If they were willing, I would agree with 7by7!

I believe there is a place for a long-stay visa. A pro-rata NHS surcharge and suitable fee. These could apply to students and anyone with a reasonable need to travel to the UK for longer periods. They would not provide any settlement rights unless converted to a few visa types (eg should the applicant decide to settle as a spouse).

Advantages? Revenue generating, NHS provision, no settlement rights and most important, they would not be included in the immigration figures that everyone is making such a fuss about.

[7by7]

<snip>

I believe there is a place for a long-stay visa. A pro-rata NHS surcharge and suitable fee. These could apply to students and anyone with a reasonable need to travel to the UK for longer periods. They would not provide any settlement rights unless converted to a few visa types (eg should the applicant decide to settle as a spouse).

Advantages? Revenue generating, NHS provision, no settlement rights and most important, they would not be included in the immigration figures that everyone is making such a fuss about.

You are forgetting that such visas already exist: the various types of student visa and work visa.

Ok, spouses and partners who do not wish to settle in the UK are not included; but as said there is provision for them in the form of visit visas. Even though the ECO may take some convincing that the applicant does not want to settle in the UK with their spouse/partner at this time.

After all, most families want to be together indefinitely, and ilgitano and his wife's situation, whilst not unique, is unusual. The visa system is complicated enough without attempting to design a specific type of visa to suit every possible eventuality.

Couples have a choice;

• apply for settlement so they can live together in the UK, or
• use visit visas and accept this effectively means 6 months together followed by 6 months apart.

Back to the right to family life question. Irrelevant in this case, IMHO. It is not the UK government which is preventing ilgitano and his wife from living together and exercising this right; it is their own choice.

They have their reasons, as he explained earlier, but it is still their choice.

Finally, you say, ilgitano, that the main reason for you living apart is financial; that you are trying to save as much as you can and the cost of living is a lot cheaper in Thailand than in the UK.

That is true; but the major part of such costs are housing and related costs; which surely would be pretty much the same were she living with you.

So you'd be looking at food, clothes etc.

Are you aware that if your wife is in the UK with a settlement visa then she will be able to work?

Which may very well mean that when you add her wage to yours her living here with you means you'll both be financially better off than if she lived in Thailand.

Edited December 18, 2015 by 7by7

[ilgitano]

Thanks 7by7, you've been immensely helpful

The documentation requirements for spouse actually don't add much to the document pack that is needed for a visit visa: Proof that previous marriages are finished, english language, and TB screening. About 10 pages.

Plus the necessary documents to show that the financial requirement is met.

I believe I had to satisfy the same financial requirements on the visitors visa, so those documents are already in the pack. Have to keep them current though.

If a visit visa is what she wants, then a visit visa is what she should apply for. The ECO is not going to refuse a spouse application but issue a visit visa instead.

If she were to be refused FLR or ILR for some reason, then I suspect any ECO would view a subsequent visit visa with suspicion; possibly seeing it as an attempt to get back into the UK and remain after the visit visa had expired.

I know that bobrussell says, and has said before, that there is not a type of visa for what you require. But IMHO he is wrong, there is; a visit visa.

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

Sorry, I didn't state my point clearly: If, after say 2.5 or 5 years, she is not given another FLR because she is not spending enough time in the UK, if we then (or instead) apply for a visit visa we would probably get it since she's proved over the last few years she is indeed only visiting, not resident.

My understanding of FLR has changed though. I believe that if she has FLR, then there is no minimum residency requirement. She can stay out of the UK as much as she likes, as long as she returns every 6 months. Even the 6 months maximum duration out of the UK is not hard and fast, as long as she has a good explanation. Eg having a baby in her home country would allow maybe 10 months as being reasonable. Not that thats in our plans.

So she could if she wanted live in thailand and come to the UK for a few weeks twice a year without problem.

Of course, after five years of that, she would not meet ILR requirements of 270 days out of UK maximum in the prior three years, 90 days max in the last year. She would have no problems being issued FLR indefinitely as long as all the requirements are met though.

Is that correct?

There is no maximum time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR and after that ILR. Although when applying for each she would need to show that she is a UK resident; which may be difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in.

Covered by ensuring that she is in the UK when FLR expires and extending it while in the UK, correct? Seen that advised in the gov supporting documents. And if declined FLR for that reason, it should be easy to get a multi-year visit visa I would think.

Alright, with regard to the actual spouse visa application. The application must be made in thailand, understood. What does that get? I'm guessing here that the visa she gets is valid for 33 months, but she must get a biometric ID card from immigration within 30 days of entering the UK?

Edited December 18, 2015 by ilgitano

[ilgitano]

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

That being the crux of it I suspect: What is the distinction between visit and resident. I had assumed one could be resident fewer than 6 months per year but qualify on the basis of going to school and/or working.

One could be a visitor for greater than 6 months per year similarly because they don't go to school or work.

If she is with me for greater than 6 months, then the assumption is that she is taking up schooling or work on the sly, right? She must be doing something 'productive' with all that spare time. Traditional housewife can't be believed.

[7by7]

My understanding of FLR has changed though. I believe that if she has FLR, then there is no minimum residency requirement. She can stay out of the UK as much as she likes, as long as she returns every 6 months. Even the 6 months maximum duration out of the UK is not hard and fast, as long as she has a good explanation. Eg having a baby in her home country would allow maybe 10 months as being reasonable. Not that thats in our plans.

So she could if she wanted live in thailand and come to the UK for a few weeks twice a year without problem.

As I said earlier, there is no hard and fast rule on the amount of time allowed out of the UK whilst qualifying for FLR.

But she must be able to show that she is a UK resident living with you in the UK and has been for the entire period.

There is flexibility, but I doubt very much that living in Thailand and only visiting the UK for a couple of weeks twice a year would cut it!

Neither would ensuring that she is in the UK when the time comes to apply. Which she would need to be anyway as FLR and ILR applications can only be made from inside the UK.

Of course, after five years of that, she would not meet ILR requirements of 270 days out of UK maximum in the prior three years, 90 days max in the last year.

That is not the residential requirement for ILR; it is the residential requirement for naturalisation as British.

The requirement for ILR is the same as for FLR.

She would have no problems being issued FLR indefinitely as long as all the requirements are met though.

Is that correct?

At present, but as I said before limiting the amount of times someone can apply for FLR before they must apply for ILR or leave has been discussed several times, at Cabinet level I understand.

Who knows if such a change will be brought in, and when?

with regard to the actual spouse visa application. The application must be made in thailand, understood. What does that get? I'm guessing here that the visa she gets is valid for 33 months, but she must get a biometric ID card from immigration within 30 days of entering the UK?

Basically, yes.

But it is not that she must get a biometric residence permit within 30 days of entering the UK.

She will apply for one as part of her visa application. Once her visa is issued she must enter the UK within 30 days of the start of her visa (which will be the day it is issued unless a different, later date is requested) and then collect her BRP within 10 days of her arrival. See under 'Applicants' in this guidance.

Which means she must travel to the UK within 30 days of the start of her visa; otherwise she will need to pay for an expensive extension.

Have a read of UK settlement visa basics, which does need updating, it doesn't mention BRPs for example, but the essentials are the same, and Apply to join family living permanently in the UK

[7by7]

However, to get one then you, or rather your wife, has to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, she does not intend to remain in the UK after her visit visa has expired and does not intend to use frequent successive visits as de facto residence.

That being the crux of it I suspect: What is the distinction between visit and resident. I had assumed one could be resident fewer than 6 months per year but qualify on the basis of going to school and/or working.

One could be a visitor for greater than 6 months per year similarly because they don't go to school or work.

If she is with me for greater than 6 months, then the assumption is that she is taking up schooling or work on the sly, right? She must be doing something 'productive' with all that spare time. Traditional housewife can't be believed.

A visitor is someone who enters the UK temporarily with no intention of living here. With a some exceptions, such as a business visitor or a student visitor, visitors cannot work or undertake a course of study.

Under the UK's immigration rules, a visitor cannot remain in the UK for longer than 6 months per visit. There are some exceptions where they can stay longer; none of which apply to your wife.

A resident is someone who comes to the UK with the intention to live here, settle, indefinitely and make the UK their home. They can work and study (unless they entered on a fiance visa when they can't do either until after the marriage and they have received their first FLR) but do not have to do either.

[brewsterbudgen]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I'm shocked that she was detained for 6 hours at Heathrow when entering on a Visitor Visa. Is this normal? Were you with her or waiting for her in Arrivals?

[7by7]

No, it is not normal.

However, I stand to be corrected, but as I understand it Border Force officers at UK ports of entry do have the power to question any non British citizen seeking entry to the UK.

If the answers to those questions gives them cause to suspect that

• the person may have obtained any necessary visa by deception, by using fraudulent evidence or by withholding relevant information;
• there may have been a significant change in the person's circumstances since any visa was issued or
• the person may be seeking entrance for a purpose other than stated, such as using a visit visa to enter the UK with the intention of remaining once the visa has expired,

then they have the power to detain that person for further questioning and whilst they make further enquiries, for example contacting the person's sponsor if any; though I'm not sure how long for.

Once those enquiries are completed, if the officers are satisfied then the person will be admitted; if not then the person will be denied entry.

As said, the vast majority of people entering the UK pass through immigration with the minimum of delay (except for the queues!). Why the OP's wife was stopped and detained I obviously cannot say.

Edited December 22, 2015 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

At present students on longer courses are not classified as visitors. I believe they should be. Similarly those on fixed length work visas should fall into a longer term visit visa (which does not exist at present).

A lot of pressure is being placed on those trying to settle in the UK. Much of this is influenced by the immigration figures. Those that are not here to stay for good are all visitors IMO. We should be encouraging students to come to the UK therefore we want numbers up but the politicians want the numbers to come down!

Present system seems daft.

As for the detention at Heathrow, it does happen! My wife was held for a little over six hours. Oddly a Canadian citizen in almost exactly the same position (whose husband lived a few miles from me) was admitted with a delay of under an hour. It was racism at work and a complaint was made. A few days later a senior immigration officer phoned us up and asked what we needed, time wise in the UK. That was granted immediately!

[7by7]

At present students on longer courses are not classified as visitors. I believe they should be. Similarly those on fixed length work visas should fall into a longer term visit visa (which does not exist at present).

Sorry, Bob, but I don't see what your point is here.

Student visas and work visas are classed as non settlement visas, as are visit visas.

Students and workers can extend their stay, up to a maximum dependent upon the type of visa they hold, but cannot usually switch to settlement.

As standard visitors can neither study nor work (except for a maximum of 30 hours study in total as long as that is not the main reason for coming to the UK) obviously a separate categories are needed for those who wish to come to the UK to do either.

If they were all combined into just one type of visa then ordinary visitors, tourists, family visitors etc., would have to meet the financial and language requirements which students and workers have to!

[Richard W]

Sorry if this is off topic, but I'm shocked that she was detained for 6 hours at Heathrow when entering on a Visitor Visa.

Perhaps the Border Force correctly smelt a rat. She came on a visitor's visa, but to quote https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa , one can't use a visitor's visa to "live in the UK for long periods of time through frequent visits".

[ilgitano]

On 23/12/2015 at 6:32 AM, Richard W said:

Perhaps the Border Force correctly smelt a rat. She came on a visitor's visa, but to quote https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa , one can't use a visitor's visa to "live in the UK for long periods of time through frequent visits".

I know this is long past, but I take exception to that. It was her first visit to the uk, so that doesn't apply. Also she was not the only thai woman detained. Two others were detained with her for that entire time. And I was waiting in arrivals the entire time.

 

There was no deception. She had applied for a visa for a six month visit, to stay with her husband, me. First time, no ongoing pattern of behaviour.

[Richard W]

2 hours ago, ilgitano said:

There was no deception. She had applied for a visa for a six month visit, to stay with her husband, me. First time, no ongoing pattern of behaviour.

Unless you changed your plan after that visit, the intention was to use visit visas as a way of living together in the UK for six months a year.  Such a pattern of residence is not permitted.  Additionally, an Immigration Officer does not always immediately know that there is deception; often he can only strongly suspect it and need to make further inquiries.