Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[AGareth2]

the hair in Hannah's hand

the stab wounds on David

point away from the B2

Is this why these physical leads were not followed up on?

A verdict had been passed 14 months ago

[smedly]

the only way I will ever be convinced that B2 are guilty is when the police/prosecution produce the original DNA samples they claim to have taken from the victims body and they are retested at either the CIFS or in another independent forensic lab such as in the UK

I don't care who initiates this retest prosecution - defence - government - family or what ever.

It must be from the original samples which the Thai police chief claimed on a news channel that they had

it is simple and would make all the speculation go away as far as I am concerned

Edited December 30, 2015 by smedly

[stephenterry]

I wouldn't rely too much on the Appeals process. Apart from taking years to exhaust the process, no new evidence is permitted. That means the Appeals court would only review what has already been trialled. Even if, by some miracle, sentences are reduced, this is what it means:-

The original sentences for each are 20 years life imprisonment for rape and two death sentences for murder and concealment of the crimes. I guess the B2 have many years ahead, incarcerated.

BTW, I posted a message on Andy Hall's Facebook page a few days ago, and not received any answer. Pity. Here it is:

Andy, it is clear to me that the Burmese two have weak alibis. They have said on more than one occasion that when the truth comes out, we will be exonerated from these crimes. While I can understand they may be in fear of their life if they spoke out what they know - don't you think it is appropriate to confide in strict confidence what really happened that night?

[lucky11]

She has plenty of experience in dna collection, she has helped thousands of people get justice that would otherwise be denied to them. It's why people like her and the rtp don't. If she was called to do the forensic analysis of the crime scene intact instead of those others trampling all over the place she would have likely found the culprits but that wasnt what was required hence missing evidence and the prosecution not able to supply dna samples for verification. "Sorry,used up"....

she runs the CIFS for the Justice Department, she employs people trained to do the various tasks involved with a crime scene, they are the most well equipped and recognised to carry out that task in Thailand and yet they were excluded from this investigation most likely because they are not under the control of the police or government - everything they do is above board and by the book

But that still doesn't make they are capable and probably explains why the sample were sent to a lab in Singapore.

Unbelievable the amount of rubbish being spewed here, no samples went to Singapore, they were all tested in Bangkok by the RTP. Please do your research before posting such significant information that is incorrect.

I'm afraid that he is correct - they were tested in Singapore. Apologies forthcoming from you?

From the Nation.

Semen and cigarette butts seen as key to finding who killed Britons on Koh Tao

Semen found on the body of one of the two British tourists murdered on Koh Tao in Surat Thani province last Sunday will be examined in a Singapore laboratory, national police chief General Somyot Poompanmoung said yesterday.

Somyot said the DNA test would be able to identify the race, hair colour and skin colour of the person, which would help with the police investigation.

It is understood cigarette butts found at the crime scene will also be sent to Singapore for DNA analysis, although Somyot did not mention the butts in his remarks to reporters yesterday during a visit to the island.

[greenchair]

I too have changed from the not guilty camp. When I found out they had David's phone and destroyed it and hid, that was it. There just is no explaining that. Sorry to aleg

how do you know it was Davids phone, again I find myself repeating what has been already discussed on this and other forums

There were 2 phones - one from the crime scene and displayed on TV footage long before any arrests were made - how do you know the IMEI number the police had checked was not from that phone - take their word for it ......right ? and what happened to that phone, surely it should have been investigated as to who owned it - yet another unexplained mystery connected with these murders

Might I also add, a beach at night is very dark unless there is a moon, I just wonder how close you would have needed to be to find the two bodies that seem to have been concealed behind some rocks, if no moon then you could in fact be feet away and not notice them, and I am not kidding.

I have been on many beaches at night and it is very dark, I once actually fell over courting couple in Greece who were lying right in the middle of the beach area, I didn't see them and fell right on top of them, the resort close to the crime scene likely had lights but the rocks would very likely have blocked those out , I contest that unless you were standing right on top of them, nobody would have seen these bodies until daybreak

You know who knows it was David's phone? His family, the ones that used the IMEI number engraved on it to establish the ownership, those people that then you come along and accuse of knowing less than you about the facts of the case.

You know how I know it wasn't planted by the police or swapped at any point? Because Zaw Lin admitted he had it since the night of the murders and because his friend testified in court that he received the phone from him the next day. I'm sure the Miller's are acutely aware of those facts too.

"There were 2 phones - one from the crime scene and displayed on TV footage long before any arrests were made"

No, there was no phone from the crime scene displayed on TV, I think you are confused over some phones that were found at the lodgings of the first suspects questioned, three Burmese workers that were cleared of any involvement.

I bet you "learned" that from StealthEnergiser didn't you?

You are twisting yourself in knots trying to find ways to take the phone out of the picture, time and time again I and others have brought the facts forward; still you are in denial, why is that?

I am twisting nothing, I am looking at this case in a very objective way and from my own experience, if I couldn't find anything wrong then I would be very much convinced of guilt and explaining why, as it stands I still have seen nothing that would convince me, there are just too many inconsistencies the primary one being the dna, unless they can produce the original samples then as far as I am concerned they never existed and that opinion is supported by any standard that I am aware of, it is also the opinion of forensic experts and legal experts in the field

The parents checked an imei number given to them by police - I doubt very much the phone itself could be identified from looking at it, as for the phone found at the crime scene - you are telling lies

Go down to the prison.

Wei Phyo will tell you himself he found that phone right next to the scene at 5 o'clock in the morning, when he was looking for his shoes that he left behind the night before. The dna cannot be used. Let's face it the police bungled that. The b2 story just does not add up. If their clothes were stolen but not the shoes. Why would you not take the shoes. If they could not see the shoes, why go back to the beach for belongings that you thought were already gone and stolen. I want to believe them. But it sounds like they got outta there in a hurry, forgot some stuff and went back to get it. It is the b2 own statement that have caused me to change. Nothing from the police would have swayed me.

Edited December 30, 2015 by greenchair

[stephenterry]

the only way I will ever be convince that B2 are guilty is when the police/prosecution produce the original DNA samples they claim to have taken from the victims body and they are retested at either the CIFS or in another independent forensic lab such as in the UK

I don't care you initiates this retest prosecution - defence - government - family or what ever.

It must be from the original samples which the Thai police chief claimed on a news channel that they had

it is simple and would make all the speculation go away as far as I am concerned

While I agree completely with your POV, it's been repeated several times. Do you think it would change anyone's mind if They are hell bent on believing guilt?

[lucky11]

I wouldn't rely too much on the Appeals process. Apart from taking years to exhaust the process, no new evidence is permitted. That means the Appeals court would only review what has already been trialled. Even if, by some miracle, sentences are reduced, this is what it means:-

The original sentences for each are 20 years life imprisonment for rape and two death sentences for murder and concealment of the crimes. I guess the B2 have many years ahead, incarcerated.

BTW, I posted a message on Andy Hall's Facebook page a few days ago, and not received any answer. Pity. Here it is:

Andy, it is clear to me that the Burmese two have weak alibis. They have said on more than one occasion that when the truth comes out, we will be exonerated from these crimes. While I can understand they may be in fear of their life if they spoke out what they know - don't you think it is appropriate to confide in strict confidence what really happened that night?

Clearly, he can't be bothered with you as you are not a celebrity in the limelight like he is!!

[AGareth2]

what was sent to Singapore?

[lucky11]

what was sent to Singapore?

Some of the DNA samples for independent verification.

[AGareth2]

what was sent to Singapore?

Some of the DNA samples for independent verification.

verify

[Artisi]

Desist with the threats and personal remarks, debate the topic, as has been said many times.

Thank you.

There are many here who would like to debate the topic and comment on the outcome but are being overrun by those few who seem to be working to an agenda. They also seem to have been well chosen and constantly briefed on the task given them to derail the doubt side of the discussion.

[Ks45672]

Burma should arrest a few thais and pin some unsolved crime on them, fast track them to a guilty verdict and death sentence.....

Then we can negotiate on equal terms, if Thai hasn't got the proper evidence... Release them or kill them, but whatever you do the same will happen to any thais in Burma 30min later ....

[CharlieH]

If you object to anothers point of view or posting style, you can always use the "ignore" function and you wont see anything they post.

Ultimately, you dont have to respond to them or indeed anyone, its a matter of choice.

People have a right to debate and express their own point of view, within forum rules.

[asiamaster]

Follow

Robert Holmes‏@riverview810

Thai police say 3 experts checked DNA.SAY Asian profiles..problem DNA analysis can't determine race. No evid trial

There are genetic markers (for example RFLPs, SNPs and/or microsatellites) which correlate to race, so yes race can be determined through DNA testing.

But it all depends on your definition of race. Also there are billions of Asians so it actually means nothing. The only thing it says is that it was most likely not Caucasian DNA.

[stephenterry]

I wouldn't rely too much on the Appeals process. Apart from taking years to exhaust the process, no new evidence is permitted. That means the Appeals court would only review what has already been trialled. Even if, by some miracle, sentences are reduced, this is what it means:-

The original sentences for each are 20 years life imprisonment for rape and two death sentences for murder and concealment of the crimes. I guess the B2 have many years ahead, incarcerated.

BTW, I posted a message on Andy Hall's Facebook page a few days ago, and not received any answer. Pity. Here it is:

Andy, it is clear to me that the Burmese two have weak alibis. They have said on more than one occasion that when the truth comes out, we will be exonerated from these crimes. While I can understand they may be in fear of their life if they spoke out what they know - don't you think it is appropriate to confide in strict confidence what really happened that night?

Clearly, he can't be bothered with you as you are not a celebrity in the limelight like he is!!

Your point being? Kindly discuss the topic, not the personalities.

[glenmohr]

< snip>

"There are several counter theories circulating on Koh Tao about who killed Witheridge and Miller. Most centre around men associated with a dominant Thai family on the island, one of several that run dive schools, resorts and bars. A version recounted repeatedly - without any evidence - is that Witheridge had an argument with one of them at a beachside bar run by the family, shortly before the killings."

and there is much more interesting info in the article, a lot of which sounds like it came first hand to the reporter

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thailand-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-mystery-mafia-fear

Yes. And note from the above: Without an evidence. Minor technicality.

Yes noted. Shame there was no cctv made available from ac bar eh? or customers taking photographs of an argument. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What caught my attention was that it sounded like it was not just one or two people saying this but quite a number.

Yes -- quite a number... and still not one piece of corroborable evidence that such an event ever took place.

That may be true Mr Crab, but then we would have to add to that that there is no corroborated evidence that the B2 murdered Hannah and David. WE have gone over this before but I can give 100 reasons why they did not and wiser heads than mine who are on here could probably give you 200 reasons.

[HUH]

what was sent to Singapore?

Nothing went to Singapore, all original DNA testing was carried out at "The Institute of Forensic Medicine: attached to the Police Hospital in Bangkok. There lab technicians and witnesses were at the trial and took the stand explaining their procedure with one even commenting on how surprisingly quickly the test results were obtained from their own lab. Unfortunately we have a couple of posters here saying the dna was tested in Singapore they obviously have not followed the trial in any detail.

[lucky11]

Follow

Robert Holmes‏@riverview810

Thai police say 3 experts checked DNA.SAY Asian profiles..problem DNA analysis can't determine race. No evid trial

There are genetic markers (for example RFLPs, SNPs and/or microsatellites) which correlate to race, so yes race can be determined through DNA testing.

But it all depends on your definition of race. Also there are billions of Asians so it actually means nothing. The only thing it says is that it was most likely not Caucasian DNA.

Bingo!!

[AGareth2]

what was sent to Singapore?

Some of the DNA samples for independent verification.

verify

Obligingly, another article from the Nation on October 28th 2014.

When the press reported that the Thai police would require DNA testing in the Koh Tao murder case, it was reported also that the FBI would conduct the tests or, at least, test the DNA samples gathered by the Thai police.

Later, however, the DNA samples were sent to lab in Singapore instead. The FBI was not involved. Why not?

I am surprised that the British and Myanmar governments have not run their own DNA tests in this case. No one will believe the Thai police. Or the Thai courts. Or the FBI. The British and Myanmar authorities should conduct their own DNA tests. But since few people trust foreign embassies and consular offices, a wholly independent outside source should also conduct the tests in this case. Otherwise, the case will never be satisfactorily resolved.

Interesting that they wouldn't even trust the FBI!!

if you can't verify

then your claim is false

makes one wonder what else you claim is false?

[smedly]

what was sent to Singapore?

Some of the DNA samples for independent verification.

verify

Obligingly, another article from the Nation on October 28th 2014.

When the press reported that the Thai police would require DNA testing in the Koh Tao murder case, it was reported also that the FBI would conduct the tests or, at least, test the DNA samples gathered by the Thai police.

Later, however, the DNA samples were sent to lab in Singapore instead. The FBI was not involved. Why not?

I am surprised that the British and Myanmar governments have not run their own DNA tests in this case. No one will believe the Thai police. Or the Thai courts. Or the FBI. The British and Myanmar authorities should conduct their own DNA tests. But since few people trust foreign embassies and consular offices, a wholly independent outside source should also conduct the tests in this case. Otherwise, the case will never be satisfactorily resolved.

Interesting that they wouldn't even trust the FBI!!

well a retest would be all fine and good if indeed the original samples were produced, as yet that has not happened and it is only claimed they exist and are available for retest

DNA is what the court based it judgement - lets have it retested under independent controlled conditions, like I said above - I don't care who initiates this retest but it needs to be done

[AGareth2]

proof regarding DNA testing in Singapore

please

[lucky11]

Nice try Agareth, but I'm not falling for that one!!

[AGareth2]

Nice try Agareth, but I'm not falling for that one!!

your press statement made reference to the future tense

will

I hope you know the meaning of the future tense

[asiamaster]

what was sent to Singapore?

Some of the DNA samples for independent verification.

verify

There are several articles stating this. Not only that they would be sent to Singapore for advanced testing but also that they had been sent.

This was probably for autosomal DNA testing -which unlike some are claiming -does test for ethnicity.

[lucky11]

Nice try Agareth, but I'm not falling for that one!!

your press statement made reference to the future tense

will

I hope you know the meaning of the future tense

"Later, however, the DNA samples were sent to lab in Singapore instead. The FBI was not involved. Why not"?

Since when has WERE been in the future tense?

[sartoric]

As far as I know, samples were never sent to Singapore.

Lucky, happy for you to prove otherwise.

[AGareth2]

lol!

where is the Singapore document?

Edited December 30, 2015 by AGareth2

[iReason]

Ahh, yes!

Ignore.

I forgot about that function in the preferences.

Much better.

[JLCrab]

As to an overly-nested post above as to whether corroborable evidence exists, for now, the written opinion of the Judges says there is sufficient evidence for a conviction whether wiser-heads disagree or could give 100 or 200 reasons why such opinion is faulty or not.

Edited December 30, 2015 by JLCrab

[sambum]

I wouldn't rely too much on the Appeals process. Apart from taking years to exhaust the process, no new evidence is permitted. That means the Appeals court would only review what has already been trialled. Even if, by some miracle, sentences are reduced, this is what it means:-

The original sentences for each are 20 years life imprisonment for rape and two death sentences for murder and concealment of the crimes. I guess the B2 have many years ahead, incarcerated.

BTW, I posted a message on Andy Hall's Facebook page a few days ago, and not received any answer. Pity. Here it is:

Andy, it is clear to me that the Burmese two have weak alibis. They have said on more than one occasion that when the truth comes out, we will be exonerated from these crimes. While I can understand they may be in fear of their life if they spoke out what they know - don't you think it is appropriate to confide in strict confidence what really happened that night?

Clearly, he can't be bothered with you as you are not a celebrity in the limelight like he is!!

I honestly don't know what you get out of antagonising people in this way