Is the E.U as we know it ,finished ?

[nontabury]

sirineou, on 27 Feb 2016 - 19:03, said:

One question to those who know more about this than me,

Britain exits. will Scotland exit with them? or other UK members? What will this do to the UK?

The UK is the member of the EU, not separate Nations. 1 out all out.

I have said on a number of threads recently, that if Scotland had been voting to leave the rUK and the EU it would have been a landslide for out.

As much as it goes against what Sturgeon says she does not have anywhere near the support she is claiming for remaining in the EU.

The SNP have always canvassed for an Independent Scotland. Their Party their Policy.

I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer on who being part of the EU makes you Independent.

I am an American, and certainly dont know as much about this as you guys do,

In my office and car I have Bloomberg Financial news on the radio all the time. All experts say , if Brexit occurs it is certain for a Scottish Independence referendum to occur with in a year, If the results of the Brexit have a negative affect, as most experts expect it will, they say that such referendum has a much higher probability of being successful than the previous one.

A simple google search "brexit Scotland" will have plenty of returns most of which state that Scottish sentiment is to remain in the EU

My thinking is, if Scotland separates, and remains in the EU, and if such move proves to be beneficial to Scotland, would it foster a separatist movement in other UK members?

Just food for thought

IF Bloomberg did make those remarks,it would show how out of touch they are with reality. Why would there be a greater chance of Scotland leaving the UK, when in 2014 oil was around 125$, and that according to the SNP would have constituted a large percent of Scotland's income. Fast forward just 2 yrs and the oil is now worth a massive 30$. It would seem that 55% of the Scotish electorate were far more astute than those financial wizards.

[nong38]

It is not Great Britain that is thinking of leaving the EU its the UK.

GB is England, Scotland and Wales. The UK also adds in Northern Ireland.

It confuses a lot of people, many of them who live there!

The referendum has set tongues wagging all over Europe and casts a doubt over the whole of Europe, so the 2nd largest player in the group may be about to leave, its bound to.

Almost all politicians want to stay in the club, its to their benefit but they must worry what if it actually happens what do we do and what will our voters have to say about it?

The Central core in Brussels must be changing the pants more than once a day right now as things are not going their ( the establishment) way so far. Almost every card the UK Gov has played has back fired or been seen through by the public. Early days of course, pretty much neck and neck right now, but be of no doubt that a vote to leave would shake the very core and foundations of the EU, it will be a leap in the dark for them as well.

[sirineou]

sirineou, on 27 Feb 2016 - 19:03, said:

One question to those who know more about this than me,

Britain exits. will Scotland exit with them? or other UK members? What will this do to the UK?

The UK is the member of the EU, not separate Nations. 1 out all out.

I have said on a number of threads recently, that if Scotland had been voting to leave the rUK and the EU it would have been a landslide for out.

As much as it goes against what Sturgeon says she does not have anywhere near the support she is claiming for remaining in the EU.

The SNP have always canvassed for an Independent Scotland. Their Party their Policy.

I am still waiting for someone to give me an answer on who being part of the EU makes you Independent.

I am an American, and certainly dont know as much about this as you guys do,

In my office and car I have Bloomberg Financial news on the radio all the time. All experts say , if Brexit occurs it is certain for a Scottish Independence referendum to occur with in a year, If the results of the Brexit have a negative affect, as most experts expect it will, they say that such referendum has a much higher probability of being successful than the previous one.

A simple google search "brexit Scotland" will have plenty of returns most of which state that Scottish sentiment is to remain in the EU

My thinking is, if Scotland separates, and remains in the EU, and if such move proves to be beneficial to Scotland, would it foster a separatist movement in other UK members?

Just food for thought

IF Bloomberg did make those remarks,it would show how out of touch they are with reality. Why would there be a greater chance of Scotland leaving the UK, when in 2014 oil was around 125$, and that according to the SNP would have constituted a large percent of Scotland's income. Fast forward just 2 yrs and the oil is now worth a massive 30$. It would seem that 55% of the Scotish electorate were far more astute than those financial wizards.

I have no independent opinion on the subject, I simply repeat what I hear

Would Scotland leaving the EU as part of the Brexit increase it's GDP or Decrease it?

If the answer is decrease it, and since as you say Scotland's economy has already taken a hit from the decrees in oil price. Can Scotland take an other hit by leaving the EU.

If indeed what I say above is correct, Don't you think the separatists would be making that point, combined with all the other benefits that would be lost from leaving the EU ?

[elliss]

One question to those who know more about this than me,

Britain exits. will Scotland exit with them? or other UK members? What will this do to the UK?

Doubt it , Scotland Oil revenue is now finished , zit .

Mouth n trousers , is all MOUTH .

Edited February 28, 2016 by elliss

[Ricardo]

One question to those who know more about this than me,

Britain exits. will Scotland exit with them? or other UK members? What will this do to the UK?

Doubt it , Scotland Oil revenue is now finished , zit .

Mouth n trousers , is all MOUTH .

I like a slightly-different version, originating from Glasgow I believe, "all fur coat & no knickers" !

[nong38]

The European Plan was based on a Communist system thought up in the 1920s by a French bloke called Monnet. It was a long term plan so no matter which politicians came and went the show would carry on regardless, the Eurocrats would make sure that things went according to plan and the grand plan was always to make a European super state at the expense of the individual countries which would eventually just become regions and the big selling point was that there would be no more wars, that was the first thing that went wrong or did they turn that to their advantage? Yes they probably took the opportunity in the Treaty of Rome and then ball started to roll.The 6 became 9 but still it was a trading block right? Any differences were easy to sort out with just 9 right?

With new treaties and new members the EU structure began to change and the real power went to Brussels, that is where the decisions are made, the individual Heads of States and the Parliament just rubber stamp the instructions, its happening slowly by stealth, for sure some see whats going on but as politicians its their game, they are only there for a short time relatively and they will be rewarded for passing the baton on after doing their bit. Rarely do the peoples get asked what they think about it all and if they had the chance to change would they get out of the armchairs?

I read yesterday that the total savings of the HMGs austerity measures was £44b and its been done with cuts to services and armed forces, its been an unpopular set of events and there is likely more to come, we have to live within our means after all, that I can understand, short term pain to put the house in order. Its strange then that in the same time frame that all this has been going on hat the HMG has given more than £44b to the EU and Foreign Aid, so in a simplistic view we have endured the pain to give the savings to a bunch of foreigners who dont seem to appreciate us.

The Europe project started off well intentioned but is got out of control and is failing, we will never be able to change from within there are too many obstacles and opponents in our way, accept it. I doubt we will be the last to question it but who has the strength bravery to leave.

Ritz Crackers our globe trotting Chancellor must have thought that this was to be the crowning glory to him becoming the next PM, backed by all his foreign chums, there will be a statement in the final draft to the affect of leaving the EU just wait and see, but if its a close vote or an out vote Ritz will not be the next PM, he can return to doing impressions of Dudley Moore which he is far more suited to.

Edited February 29, 2016 by nong38

[i claudius]

As has been said many times the E.U started out with good intentions , but was taken over by Brussels.

as my dad used to say

THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS .

[tonika]

Regarding Scotland leaving the UK;

1. The Scottish Government would need to gain Independence, for this to happen. That can only happen, if Parliament approves another Referendum (hopefully, no chance).

2. Even if that did happen, Spain (and I'm sure there would be others) has said it would veto Scotland joining the EU.

3. A recent poll shows membership for the SNP has actually fallen, although it looks likely they will win an overall majority in the May elections, to continue governing the Sottish Parliament.

Unfortunately, there is no credible opposition, Scottish Labour are in disarray, The Tories have no chance, as they're not trusted by the Scots, hence the SNP rules. That said, I think the majority of Scots would vote, as they did previously, to stay within the UK should a Referendum were to take place.

[NanLaew]

Regarding Scotland leaving the UK;

1. The Scottish Government would need to gain Independence, for this to happen. That can only happen, if Parliament approves another Referendum (hopefully, no chance).

2. Even if that did happen, Spain (and I'm sure there would be others) has said it would veto Scotland joining the EU.

3. A recent poll shows membership for the SNP has actually fallen, although it looks likely they will win an overall majority in the May elections, to continue governing the Sottish Parliament.

Unfortunately, there is no credible opposition, Scottish Labour are in disarray, The Tories have no chance, as they're not trusted by the Scots, hence the SNP rules. That said, I think the majority of Scots would vote, as they did previously, to stay within the UK should a Referendum were to take place.

1. Scotland's independence ie, leaving the UK, would come from winning any new referendum. That's obviously not going to happen before the EU referendum but a Brexit win would certainly upset the apple cart in the current status quo with respect to the Union. Immediately after losing the last one, Salmond stood down but not before saying there wouldn't be another referendum in his lifetime. Within months, after the general election where SNP continued to shut out the Conservatives and Scottish Labour further imploded, his successor was quick to throw his dour proclamation "oot thae windae". Notably Salmond was also elected as a returning MP at Westminster.

2. Citation needed for that. Unless there's a link to a Spanish press story, I believe the threat that Spain (and others) would black-ball an independent Scotland's EU membership was an invention of the Tories "better together" team of scaremongering. The same team that suddenly buddied up with Milliband's own panic merchants and facing a significant chance of losing the independence referendum, hastily drafted that laughable joint proclamation of more autonomy (beads and trinkets) for Scotland if they voted to stay in the UK. Probably the same team that now has Cameron talking about a Brexit being a dangerous "leap in the dark."

3. That's typical Scottish voter apathy; the prime cause of death for major, London-centric political parties north of the border. It happened with the Scots Tories many moons ago when they were head-to-head with Scottish Labour in dividing the Caledonian spoils. Both those political parties, mere franchises of Westminster-based management, failed to maintain any momentum and pay any real attention to things north of the border. When Thatcher used Scotland to test her poll tax, the Tories fate was sealed. The fact that Labour didn't seize the initiative, even during the long years of Blair's 'new Labour', replete with a significant proportion of Scots born and/or Scots educated cabinet members who sitting at Westminster, gazed inwards and left Scottish Labour twisting in the winds of change. One doesn't need to be a card-carrying party member to vote what your head or your heart tells you.

The SNP is a wholly Scottish entity and not a clone, hybrid or wholly-owned subsidiary of any other political party. We can only trust that they don't succumb to the offer of baubles, titles and estates from Westminster which has been the undoing of any tangible, home-grown Scottish independence movement since Robert the Bruce.

[nontabury]

Regarding Scotland leaving the UK;

1. The Scottish Government would need to gain Independence, for this to happen. That can only happen, if Parliament approves another Referendum (hopefully, no chance).

2. Even if that did happen, Spain (and I'm sure there would be others) has said it would veto Scotland joining the EU.

3. A recent poll shows membership for the SNP has actually fallen, although it looks likely they will win an overall majority in the May elections, to continue governing the Sottish Parliament.

Unfortunately, there is no credible opposition, Scottish Labour are in disarray, The Tories have no chance, as they're not trusted by the Scots, hence the SNP rules. That said, I think the majority of Scots would vote, as they did previously, to stay within the UK should a Referendum were to take place.

1. Scotland's independence ie, leaving the UK, would come from winning any new referendum. That's obviously not going to happen before the EU referendum but a Brexit win would certainly upset the apple cart in the current status quo with respect to the Union. Immediately after losing the last one, Salmond stood down but not before saying there wouldn't be another referendum in his lifetime. Within months, after the general election where SNP continued to shut out the Conservatives and Scottish Labour further imploded, his successor was quick to throw his dour proclamation "oot thae windae". Notably Salmond was also elected as a returning MP at Westminster.

2. Citation needed for that. Unless there's a link to a Spanish press story, I believe the threat that Spain (and others) would black-ball an independent Scotland's EU membership was an invention of the Tories "better together" team of scaremongering. The same team that suddenly buddied up with Milliband's own panic merchants and facing a significant chance of losing the independence referendum, hastily drafted that laughable joint proclamation of more autonomy (beads and trinkets) for Scotland if they voted to stay in the UK. Probably the same team that now has Cameron talking about a Brexit being a dangerous "leap in the dark."

3. That's typical Scottish voter apathy; the prime cause of death for major, London-centric political parties north of the border. It happened with the Scots Tories many moons ago when they were head-to-head with Scottish Labour in dividing the Caledonian spoils. Both those political parties, mere franchises of Westminster-based management, failed to maintain any momentum and pay any real attention to things north of the border. When Thatcher used Scotland to test her poll tax, the Tories fate was sealed. The fact that Labour didn't seize the initiative, even during the long years of Blair's 'new Labour', replete with a significant proportion of Scots born and/or Scots educated cabinet members who sitting at Westminster, gazed inwards and left Scottish Labour twisting in the winds of change. One doesn't need to be a card-carrying party member to vote what your head or your heart tells you.

The SNP is a wholly Scottish entity and not a clone, hybrid or wholly-owned subsidiary of any other political party. We can only trust that they don't succumb to the offer of baubles, titles and estates from Westminster which has been the undoing of any tangible, home-grown Scottish independence movement since Robert the Bruce.

At the end of the day it comes down to money,where can Scotland obtain the best deal. If the EU is finished, which is a strong possibility,then obviously that will then not be a choice.

[worgeordie]

It is just a gravy train for the bureaucrats,suckling on the teats of the workers efforts,

next they will want to bring in Turkey, then N.Africa,and it will expand and expand as

it will make the people pushing this more important,to have more countries and people

under their control.

Britain needs to get out of this mess and leave it to the Germans and French,maybe

we need to forge new ties with the Commonwealth again,and look to the rest of the World,

there is too much control from Brussels over what should be the peoples and Governments

policies,I am not worried about having straight bananas and Cucumbers.

regards Worgeordie

[IMA_FARANG]

The EU is a ship that is slowly sinking.

The U.K voters should see this now.... and get out before the ship sinks taking them down with it.

There is however a certain wealthy class who are profiting from the EU.

That class wants to stay in the EU......and will right until the ship has sunk.

And , of course, they will leave the others to pay their bill once the ship has sunk.

That is the true nature of free market Capitalism.... and always will be.

[NeverSure]

So if EU took in one million expect to have 10 million in the nearest future.

that's because the migrants lay eggs which hatch already after 6 weeks

-snip-

[TheCruncher]

Let me put it for you this way , during Lebanese civil war, Australia took in from memory 30 000 Lebanese, now there are over 350 000 .

So if EU took in one million expect to have 10 million in the nearest future.

Most are poor and poorly educated, so expect crimes to go up, which means not only inflated budget for police but also jails and all the rest support services.

Yes, your pensions will dry up pretty soon, so will your insurance premiums rising at speeds of light.

EU is not in best financial shape at the moment,it's only going to get worse on a number of levels.

So if EU took in one million expect to have 10 million in the nearest future.

that's because the migrants lay eggs which hatch already after 6 weeks

note: Arab population in Austria (from various Arab countries) total 17.900

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_Austria

next comment (drawn out of thin air) please.

No it is that once they gain resident status they are allowed to bring their families over.

[NeverSure]

Merkel defends open borders for migrants amid German rift

Reuters Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:04am IST

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Sunday defended her open-door policy for migrants, rejecting any limit on the number of refugees allowed into her country despite divisions within her government.

Merkel said there was no 'Plan B' for her aim of reducing the flow of migrants through cooperation with Turkey, efforts she said could unravel were Germany to cap the number of refugees it accepts.

"Sometimes, I also despair. Some things go too slow. There are many conflicting interests in Europe," Merkel told state broadcaster ARD. "But it is my damn duty to do everything I can so that Europe finds a collective way."

Merkel spelled out her motivation to keep Germany's borders open without limits on refugees, a goal many in her own country and coalition government openly disagree with.

MORE

[donnybay]

From a couple of months ago, but well worth a listen, here is a man that says it like it is, Nigel Farage

[gk10002000]

I am a US citizen and found the idea of the EU very interesting. I was amazed the EU got as far as it did, and the Euro got as far as it did. The first chinks in the armor appeared a few years ago when a few countries refused to ratify the charter. Just like when anybody joins a team, the individual gives up some of their individuality in order for the team as a whole to benefit. Some of the countries in Europe really are vastly different in economies, mentality, industries, problems, etc. A combined union can benefit all members, but some members will never agree to all the Union's goals.

[BaldPlumber]

In an act of supreme irony the vote-ins in the UK are being accused of mounting operation fear to persuade voters to avoid the fear of the unknown regarding life outside the EU.

From what I understand if the situation, it's a bloody sight more terrifying to remain, given what we know about both current and planned future events.

I'm a bit puzzled that the vote-out campaign isn't a bit more vocal.

Edited February 29, 2016 by BaldPlumber

[BaldPlumber]

From a couple of months ago, but well worth a listen, here is a man that says it like it is, Nigel Farage

UKIP and effectively, Nigel Farage, managed to get approximately 4.5 million votes in the general election last year. This was on the back of the conservative party having to offer an EU referendum to avoid complete carnage at the polls.

Because of the UK`s electoral rules, 4.5 million votes translated into only a single UKIP nominee being elected to parliament.

It will be very interesting to see the result of the upcoming referendum, where each vote carries equal weight, unlike in the general election.

Maybe we can show that we aren't such a bunch of sheep after all.

[nong38]

The main reason they (the in lot) are mounting a fear campaign against the "out" brigade is to deflect our attention from what they are trying to keep us from seeing which is the future way of the EU, where it is leading is what they dont want to answer questions on. We know the Brussels boys have already deferred legislation until after the vote as they fear it will turn even more people away from the "in" players.

We should have it spelt out if they have nothing to lose but we will wait for a long time for them to tell us how bright the road ahead is because the the EU has done back into de flation and we wait to see what the ECB is going to do about it and what effect they can have.

I have brought a packed lunch whilst await the plans of the UK in the EU and the road ahead, all I want is a something to tell me what the options are before I vote, if they cannot do that I can only conclude there is something they dont want to tell me or something they dont want me to find out in which case I have to vote out.

[Henryford]

From a couple of months ago, but well worth a listen, here is a man that says it like it is, Nigel Farage

UKIP and effectively, Nigel Farage, managed to get approximately 4.5 million votes in the general election last year. This was on the back of the conservative party having to offer an EU referendum to avoid complete carnage at the polls.

Because of the UK`s electoral rules, 4.5 million votes translated into only a single UKIP nominee being elected to parliament.

It will be very interesting to see the result of the upcoming referendum, where each vote carries equal weight, unlike in the general election.

Maybe we can show that we aren't such a bunch of sheep after all.

Don't worry a few million postal votes from Islamabad will swing the result.

[i claudius]

I reckon the reason Cameron is having the vote so soon ,is that in the coming year or so the amount of economic migrants trying to get into Europe and Britain is going to soar ,i think there is trouble ahead .

[nong38]

I do find it interesting why Cameron called the referendum so early, he originally said by the end of 2017, he has called at the earliest possible date, I guess that one day we will find the answer for that but its probably geared towards the plans of the EU and where they are going rather giving the British public the earliest opportunity to voice their opinions, perhaps he figured that if we saw what the EU were planning this year he thought it would not be in the best interests of the remain camp. Meanwhile "project fear" rolls on as we await the best offer of what remaining in the EU gives us and why we should stay in.

I await the G20 statement, we could all write as they have been coerced into making comments that are not part of their remit.

[nontabury]

Usually the government calls an election, for about 4 wks time,therefore not allowing registered voters in Thailand the opportunity to receive their voting papers and then to return that vote. Now that they have called for this Referendum to take place in nearly 4 months time, it will be interesting to see IF we do receive our polling papers in plenty of time to actually submit our vote.

[sawadee1947]

And you are coming from a failing country?

[donnybay]

As we see the worsening scenes from the camps in France, the migrants tearing down fences across Europe , rapes being committed, and infighting between different factions arriving

Will all make the UK ordinary citizens to think no way we want a part of this anymore, OUT

[BaldPlumber]

As we see the worsening scenes from the camps in France, the migrants tearing down fences across Europe , rapes being committed, and infighting between different factions arriving

Will all make the UK ordinary citizens to think no way we want a part of this anymore, OUT

Which is probably why the referendum has been called at the very earliest opportunity.

The spring and summer will see yet another exodus of millions of Muslim refugees, with no doubt, a fair few lunatic extremists.

Not good news for the vote ins.

[nontabury]

And you are coming from a failing country?

No I'm not from the Irish Republic.

[sirineou]

Once Britain negotiated a new deal by definition the EU as we knew it finished and a slightly different EU emerged, The EU , has and is a work in progress.

IMO the danger now is, that once a member nation get's special considerations by threatening to leave,other member nations will threaten to leave if they also did not also get special considerations, signaling the beginning of the end.

IMO a Brexit will be a good thing for the EU, I am also looking forward to a German Exit and perhaps a French exit, This will devalue the Euro to a realistic level for the rest of the member nations, allowing their economies to recover.This will be good for the EU , and good for Germany Britain and France, as their exports to a healthy EU will increase..

Once the rest of the economies in the EU have recovered and are on equal or comparable footing with Germany Britain and France, a re-integration would be sustainable.

Now Norway wants the same deal as the UK how long before everyone would want to renegotiate?

" While voters have twice rejected joining the EU, Norway has still adopted 75 percent of its laws to access the lucrative single market.

Some lawmakers in Europe’s second-richest nation per capita now want a deal similar to the one U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron struck with the EU on curbing welfare benefits for workers from other member states."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-29/norway-seeks-to-piggyback-on-brexit-deal-to-escape-eu-s-grip

[nong38]

Once Britain negotiated a new deal by definition the EU as we knew it finished and a slightly different EU emerged, The EU , has and is a work in progress.

IMO the danger now is, that once a member nation get's special considerations by threatening to leave,other member nations will threaten to leave if they also did not also get special considerations, signaling the beginning of the end.

IMO a Brexit will be a good thing for the EU, I am also looking forward to a German Exit and perhaps a French exit, This will devalue the Euro to a realistic level for the rest of the member nations, allowing their economies to recover.This will be good for the EU , and good for Germany Britain and France, as their exports to a healthy EU will increase..

Once the rest of the economies in the EU have recovered and are on equal or comparable footing with Germany Britain and France, a re-integration would be sustainable.

Now Norway wants the same deal as the UK how long before everyone would want to renegotiate?

" While voters have twice rejected joining the EU, Norway has still adopted 75 percent of its laws to access the lucrative single market.

Some lawmakers in Europe’s second-richest nation per capita now want a deal similar to the one U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron struck with the EU on curbing welfare benefits for workers from other member states."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-29/norway-seeks-to-piggyback-on-brexit-deal-to-escape-eu-s-grip

The Norwegian politicians want to join the EU but the people dont. The EU is run by politicians for politicians and big business, they dont care about the people.