The Debt Of A Loved One.

[GuestHouse]

I’m starting this thread as a carry over from a discussion within the “Thai Love Affair With Credit” thread over on the News Branch.

There is an inevitable amount of double coverage, but I hope the Mods will bear with me on that as I think this is a particularly important topic for Farangs in Thailand to understand.

We often hear two peaces of basic financial advice with respect to Thailand –

‘Never bring to Thailand any money to that you can’t afford to loose”

And

‘Never a borrower or a lender be’

True, the latter is good advice the world over, while the former comes from the long hard

experience of very many Farangs who have lost their life’s savings in scams, relationship

breakdowns and business failures (malicious and otherwise).

It would be easy to blame Thais for all these losses, but often a foreigner will ignore

warnings and cautions that are explicit. Common sense, as un common as it clearly is, seems to be left at the immigration counter on the way in.

So that said. Here is a warning that outstrips both of the two above in terms of seriousness.

“Do Not Ever Be The Guarantor Of Someone Else’s Debts/Loans’

The reason is, if they don’t pay, you must - And because not paying debts is often one failure among many, it is highly likely that the person who’s debt/loan you have guaranteed will not inform you of problems until the debt collectors come a-calling.

I have it on good authority that even then, they may deny they have any knowledge of the fact they have not paid their debts for months or longer.

OK – But this is true of everywhere, why is it specifically important in Thailand?

The problem in Thailand is, tied up with all the other ‘financial risks’ in Thailand.

But first among all is you do not have to sign on the line to underwrite someone else’s debts – You may have already done that when you got married.

And just make note of this: A debt you have underwritten, knowingly or otherwise, might very well exceed what you have brought to Thailand and what you can afford to loose

The root of the problem is, very few Thais are educated in finance, I know, they can micromanage household accounts, living on a few Bht above that necessary to feed a mouse. But they go to pieces when it comes to ‘Easy Money and Easy Terms’.

To give an idea. I worked in an office where the Thai Staff salaries ranged from perhaps Bht15K per month, to over Bht200K per month. Most professionals in the office being in the Bh30-80K mark.

Almost-Every-Single-One-Of-Them was hocked up to the eyeballs to buy ‘FLASH NEW CARS’.

If you’ve lived in Thailand, you know how it goes, living in a shack with a BMW parked in the living room.

Which is a good place to park the BM, because the deeds to the land and shack are almost certainly lodged with the bank to buy the car.

All this is fine until things take a turn for financial worse, at which time debts aren’t paid, car, house and land to got he court/banks. – It is not always bad news - My wife and I bought a beautiful 10 Rai plot of land lost to a Bht700K loan to buy a car. –

Huge Numbers of Thais do this.

Make sure you don’t get caught. - Don’t let it be your beautiful plot of land or home going under the hammer for someone’s unpaid debts.

The first thing to keep an eye on is the title deeds to your own property. A dear friend of mine, sadly killed in a road accident last year. Lost his home when he realized the reason why his wife had legged it was, she had hocked the house and the bank was on the way over to take possession.

You might call this 'Sudden Debt of a Loved One', eitherway, you can guess it's not a pleasent experience.

They bought the place with his hard earned cash; He had signed to say he had no financial interest in house; The deeds where in her name and she hocked the deeds at the bank – for goodness knows what reason.

What reasons might there be for her to have done such a thing?

Well there’s always the good old gambling debts ( a favorite with many Thais), getting a ‘Line’ down at the gambling den is so much easier with a rich Farang to back up the losses.

Then there is the ever present ‘Family Pressure’ and this is how you managed to underwrite other people’s debts by getting married.

I personally know people who have suddenly learned that their wife’s family are hugely in debt – A wife crying in the corner at the prospects of her mamma becoming homeless (or worse still moving in with you, bringing all twenty four grandchildren and her stash of beetle nut with her).

What are you going to do? You can’t say ‘No, throw her on the street’ – Well you could but you’d be a better man than me.

Likewise I have a friend who’s wife came screaming into the office demanding that he accompany her to the police station – and bring the house deeds with him – her older brother having been arrested and charged, house deeds where needed as collateral to “Spring him’ on bale – Like how would you feel about that?! It is after all another form of underwriting a debt.

More commonly I think, family pressure may mean your wife, with her established bank account and credit record, may be pressured to underwrite loans for family members. My wife had done this before we met and I have several friends who’s wife’s have done likewise.

The problem with all of these cases is the very dangerous mixture of finance and relationships – If things go wrong, if debts are not paid, if the brother skips bail you are thrown into the fire with your wife against her family – And you are NEVER going to win that one.

What to do?

We non of us can do anything about what ‘Trink’ calls Manure HuMan Nature. The only thing you can do is start with early damage limitation.

Depending on your wife’s outlook and understanding of these matters, you need to Press Press and Press again to get the message through that she must not sign loan agreements for family.

If you are worried you can’t get that message through, do your best to try and prevent her holding too many funds in the bank under her name whereby she can build a bank record that would support a loan application – Hard, I know, but so are consequences of failing to get the message across.

Next you need to school your wife and her family in debt control. You might do this by offering concerned advice – they might not listen, but at least you hare trying.

Whatever, keep an eye out for any signs of loans, credit cards, brochures for cars etc appearing.

Plead poverty (I do this all the time because I really am a pauper), but don’t go giving the impression your salted and have a never ending fund of money – If you are and you have, keep it quiet, keep it offshore.

Keep the deeds to land and property locked up, don’t let them suddenly become someone else’s collateral.

GET that Lease done. Yes, can lease gives you protection to occupy your property even if it is sold.

Get involved with the family’s discussion on money. If you hear or see that plans are being made, get in there and temper them a bit to keep them within reality.

Learn to say ‘No’ early. It’s no good letting an expectation arise that you are going to underwrite a debt and then later on saying no.

Say ‘No’ early and mean it.

I’ve had this conversation with my own wife, and it is not easy, but it must be had. Set out early explain exactly why you will not ever underwrite someone else’s debt.

And don’t think it ends with your wife’s immediate family. When my best mate in Thailand married, distant relatives his wife had never met rocked up at our wedding – the beer had hardly been cracked open before he was getting offers of ‘certain to win investments.. we don’t need your money but would you counter sign the loan?!’.

Just Say No!

It is a lot easier in the long run.

[LaoPo]

[Oleg_Rus]

Man. i adore you effort to make a statement, the article is %$#%, but your try is impressive.

get a grip

[sting01]

Man. i adore you effort to make a statement, the article is %$#%, but your try is impressive.

get a grip

Unsure I would appreciate that comment if I was him.

I think Guesthouse hit some very sensible spots. With both my ex gf (rich, Hi So, coming form a rich familly) and the new one (daughter of a sargeant, and ex bar girl), I had the same kind of issues wth collaterals loan.

that is in fact mostly related to feelings : feelings to feel good person by 'helping the cousin at the 3rd degree of the aunt of the sister in law of the father', feelings to feel important (able to shop a car as I do shop bread in tesco), feelings to be hop (shopping the last cellphone in MBK every month). All in one it end with the calimero 'feeling : no one love me (pay the dbt for me).

[sbk]

I am not sure why the agressive tone against GH, he makes very valid points.

First and foremost is do not underwrite someone else's debt.

If loaning money to someone always consider if you can give this money away, if not, then don't loan it. I try not to loan money to anyone that I need to see back. The assumption (on my part) has always been that if I get the money back, great, if not then I wasn't expecting it anyway. And this has been true in the US as well as Thailand.

Money and family do not mix. Personal experience from my own family, not my Thai husbands.

[taxexile]

great post and great advice guesthouse , but for many it will fall on deaf ears as in many cases its the wife who controls everything by the mere fact that she and the family can read and speak the language and the husband cant , and therefore he knows little of what is going on behind the scenes.

[MiG16]

SBK and i have some things in common. thats exactly my words about lending money to friends...and sometime non-friends! a few years ago I met this farang woman....earned heaps of money...hired me to work with her on a one day interpreting job......the best pay i made in one day!! couple of weeks later she called asking me to lend her money LOL the story she told WOW, she even started to cry......I kinda knew it was all dodgy but just thought to myself...ok so lets pretend I worked for free. sent her the money...ATM, and since then never heard from her again LOL and honestly...I mean ok I definitely do have better use of that money....lots of more needy people out there, but to her...and to most people here...the amount is kinda like nothing I suppose! so why did she do it? beats me.....

relevance to this thread? maybe not

and yes guesthouse is right...might be things most people feel they already know.....so what if he wanna repeat it...particularly i guess when hes had personal friends who have been victim to the situation.....

[bina]

never never never never undersign a loan; in israel its the same thing, to buy a house it used to be u needed two people to undersign. my ex and i did; two years later, the people that collect your furniture and stuff (dont know english term for this job) showed up on kibbutz knocking on my door (very very scary).... we eventually were able to get the thing worked out, but very not pleasant....

if i lend, only cash, like sbk says, it goes, it goes, it comes back, great; in the hopes that favours will be reciprocated in future one way or an other....

but good points about marriage, didnt really think about that, will have to discuss with soon to be husband (got sick of saying boyfriend) about money, his sisters in thailand, and HIS funds paying for THEIR new pickup truck.... now we need the baht for land/house whatever...

[RAZZELL]

Another excellent post from GH...

Unfortunately, I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears...

[cobra]

... Learn to say ‘No’ early. It’s no good letting an expectation arise that you are going to underwrite a debt and then later on saying no. ....

Say ‘No’ early and mean it. ..

Excellent advice,

Yes, saying "no" to a loved one, genuinely distraught over some unexpected family situation is tough.

Better an early no that the inevitable latter query :

... what do you mean the money's all gone, ?? ... all of it ?? ....

[udon]

Another excellent post from GH...

Unfortunately, I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears...

Seconded, and more reasons for moi to have a G/F & not a wife, rent a house & not buy.

Put the money saved, into a secondhand fishing boat & or a car.

There's more chance of selling them, than a house if everything goes pearshaped..

Take a look at all the houses & condos for sale in the TV classifieds & elsewhere.

[Bizz]

Telling it as it is.

Am i a sucker for punishment ?

[jazzbo]

Very nice, Mr. Guesthouse.

The quote is from Shakespeare's Hamlet, the 2 sentences being:

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;

For loan oft loses both itself and friend,

And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

This above all: to thine own self be true,

And it must follow, as the night the day,

Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Also, both here and abroad, I love it when a wealthy farang/Westerner says to you

"I am a millionaire...so it should OK to lend me a few thousand..."

[Heng]

I’m starting this thread as a carry over from a discussion within the “Thai Love Affair With Credit” thread over on the News Branch.

There is an inevitable amount of double coverage, but I hope the Mods will bear with me on that as I think this is a particularly important topic for Farangs in Thailand to understand.

We often hear two peaces of basic financial advice with respect to Thailand –

‘Never bring to Thailand any money to that you can’t afford to loose”

And

‘Never a borrower or a lender be’

True, the latter is good advice the world over, while the former comes from the long hard

experience of very many Farangs who have lost their life’s savings in scams, relationship

breakdowns and business failures (malicious and otherwise).

It would be easy to blame Thais for all these losses, but often a foreigner will ignore

warnings and cautions that are explicit. Common sense, as un common as it clearly is, seems to be left at the immigration counter on the way in.

So that said. Here is a warning that outstrips both of the two above in terms of seriousness.

“Do Not Ever Be The Guarantor Of Someone Else’s Debts/Loans’

The reason is, if they don’t pay, you must - And because not paying debts is often one failure among many, it is highly likely that the person who’s debt/loan you have guaranteed will not inform you of problems until the debt collectors come a-calling.

I have it on good authority that even then, they may deny they have any knowledge of the fact they have not paid their debts for months or longer.

OK – But this is true of everywhere, why is it specifically important in Thailand?

The problem in Thailand is, tied up with all the other ‘financial risks’ in Thailand.

But first among all is you do not have to sign on the line to underwrite someone else’s debts – You may have already done that when you got married.

And just make note of this: A debt you have underwritten, knowingly or otherwise, might very well exceed what you have brought to Thailand and what you can afford to loose

The root of the problem is, very few Thais are educated in finance, I know, they can micromanage household accounts, living on a few Bht above that necessary to feed a mouse. But they go to pieces when it comes to ‘Easy Money and Easy Terms’.

To give an idea. I worked in an office where the Thai Staff salaries ranged from perhaps Bht15K per month, to over Bht200K per month. Most professionals in the office being in the Bh30-80K mark.

Almost-Every-Single-One-Of-Them was hocked up to the eyeballs to buy ‘FLASH NEW CARS’.

If you’ve lived in Thailand, you know how it goes, living in a shack with a BMW parked in the living room.

Which is a good place to park the BM, because the deeds to the land and shack are almost certainly lodged with the bank to buy the car.

All this is fine until things take a turn for financial worse, at which time debts aren’t paid, car, house and land to got he court/banks. – It is not always bad news - My wife and I bought a beautiful 10 Rai plot of land lost to a Bht700K loan to buy a car. –

Huge Numbers of Thais do this.

Make sure you don’t get caught. - Don’t let it be your beautiful plot of land or home going under the hammer for someone’s unpaid debts.

The first thing to keep an eye on is the title deeds to your own property. A dear friend of mine, sadly killed in a road accident last year. Lost his home when he realized the reason why his wife had legged it was, she had hocked the house and the bank was on the way over to take possession.

You might call this 'Sudden Debt of a Loved One', eitherway, you can guess it's not a pleasent experience.

They bought the place with his hard earned cash; He had signed to say he had no financial interest in house; The deeds where in her name and she hocked the deeds at the bank – for goodness knows what reason.

What reasons might there be for her to have done such a thing?

Well there’s always the good old gambling debts ( a favorite with many Thais), getting a ‘Line’ down at the gambling den is so much easier with a rich Farang to back up the losses.

Then there is the ever present ‘Family Pressure’ and this is how you managed to underwrite other people’s debts by getting married.

I personally know people who have suddenly learned that their wife’s family are hugely in debt – A wife crying in the corner at the prospects of her mamma becoming homeless (or worse still moving in with you, bringing all twenty four grandchildren and her stash of beetle nut with her).

What are you going to do? You can’t say ‘No, throw her on the street’ – Well you could but you’d be a better man than me.

Likewise I have a friend who’s wife came screaming into the office demanding that he accompany her to the police station – and bring the house deeds with him – her older brother having been arrested and charged, house deeds where needed as collateral to “Spring him’ on bale – Like how would you feel about that?! It is after all another form of underwriting a debt.

More commonly I think, family pressure may mean your wife, with her established bank account and credit record, may be pressured to underwrite loans for family members. My wife had done this before we met and I have several friends who’s wife’s have done likewise.

The problem with all of these cases is the very dangerous mixture of finance and relationships – If things go wrong, if debts are not paid, if the brother skips bail you are thrown into the fire with your wife against her family – And you are NEVER going to win that one.

What to do?

We non of us can do anything about what ‘Trink’ calls Manure HuMan Nature. The only thing you can do is start with early damage limitation.

Depending on your wife’s outlook and understanding of these matters, you need to Press Press and Press again to get the message through that she must not sign loan agreements for family.

If you are worried you can’t get that message through, do your best to try and prevent her holding too many funds in the bank under her name whereby she can build a bank record that would support a loan application – Hard, I know, but so are consequences of failing to get the message across.

Next you need to school your wife and her family in debt control. You might do this by offering concerned advice – they might not listen, but at least you hare trying.

Whatever, keep an eye out for any signs of loans, credit cards, brochures for cars etc appearing.

Plead poverty (I do this all the time because I really am a pauper), but don’t go giving the impression your salted and have a never ending fund of money – If you are and you have, keep it quiet, keep it offshore.

Keep the deeds to land and property locked up, don’t let them suddenly become someone else’s collateral.

GET that Lease done. Yes, can lease gives you protection to occupy your property even if it is sold.

Get involved with the family’s discussion on money. If you hear or see that plans are being made, get in there and temper them a bit to keep them within reality.

Learn to say ‘No’ early. It’s no good letting an expectation arise that you are going to underwrite a debt and then later on saying no.

Say ‘No’ early and mean it.

I’ve had this conversation with my own wife, and it is not easy, but it must be had. Set out early explain exactly why you will not ever underwrite someone else’s debt.

And don’t think it ends with your wife’s immediate family. When my best mate in Thailand married, distant relatives his wife had never met rocked up at our wedding – the beer had hardly been cracked open before he was getting offers of ‘certain to win investments.. we don’t need your money but would you counter sign the loan?!’.

Just Say No!

It is a lot easier in the long run.

It's also important to realize that many farangs (and surely locals as well) may want to 'normalize' their own debt riddled Thai families by saying things to the effect that all Thai families surely mismanage their funds like this. They'll immediately categorize as 'anomalies' or "it's just a matter of time" or block out any kind of posts by falangs or locals that testify/suggest that they have never had any monetary issues with their families. Myself, the last time I recall anyone in my family being in debt was: myself for 20 Baht about 9 years ago when I left my wallet in the car or something. In Heng's Hamlet... the saying is "Never a borrower but a lender be."

The point is...choose your friends and your spouses carefully; yes there are folks out here who can manage their family and funds. Damage control with debt and credit AFTER you're already hitched with a baby AND hungry relatives inbound is a bit like trying to control rising flood water with sandbags. Put it up there on your checklist of requirements like non-smoking, doesn't drink, doesn't gamble.... 'can manage his/her income and savings.' It's not rocket science, one doesn't even need to go to school to learn 'don't live beyond your means.'

[Kanine]

Great effort & advice GH.

But I think this syndrome is apparent in many devoloping countries not only in LOS. And I definately agree with SBK's poliy, coz I practice the same

well lucky for me, actually me and my GF has gone through this phase and are now very aware of it.

[Tompa]

I’ve been stupid enough to be sucked into lending money to my girlfriend’s best friend. This was about 8 months ago and she needed to borrow 10,000 baht for whatever. I can survive the loss of 10,000 baht so I went along with it on the terms that the money was supposed to be paid back within 30 days. Well, 3 months later and still no money and I called her friend to see what was going on. Got the same old story, no money – will pay you soon. In the end I did get the money back (after about 5 months from the initial date). The money was really no big deal; it just pisses me off when people back out of their words. Oh well, learned a lesson there.

Tompa,

[steveromagnino]

I like GH's article (except for the Trink reference) and most people would do well to take notice of this anywhere in the world.

however, I think it says a lot about who your friends and workmates are; in my current office I think i am probably the only one out of maybe 40 that i know of (and I would know since we are associated to the financial sector) that has an outstanding CC balance; and that's only because I just bought a flash new boat. Of the family, I am one of the few with a credit card; my aunt only deals with cash and even purchased a new BMW not so long ago (to be parked outside the 'slum' upcountry house); all paid for in wads of 1000s. Truth be told I only got the CC myself since it is so <deleted> expensive around here to pay in cash; for the things I buy, many of them are 10% cheaper simply for using a CC

Mind you, go into another group, and 'birds of a feather' rings true; they are all hocked up to their eyes in debt, and thinking nothing of it. No doubt in another office similar to ours, with workers similar to here, probably everyone is running big balances up on mutliple CCs.

Upcountry, it is a whole different situation, and most of the upcountry people have minimal ideas of future planning, budgeting or what to do with money; there is a reason why they are poor. The TRT years have made the problem significantly worse, since they now know the govt will bail them out; and thus many don't understand the consequences of borrowing (aside from the threat of loan collectors).

The numbers (as a consultant to the CC industry) are fairly scary; especially at the lower end of the market; the success of legal high risk unsecured loans companies like Easybuy comes from somewhere, and mostly it is people spending money they cannot afford.

Best not to lend money to anyone and definitely a bad idea to personally guarantee anything even for your own business; it is a potential unlimited risk.

As someone wiser than me points out, no doubt much of this will fall on deaf ears however :-)

[backflip]

The points raised in this thread are applicable anywhere...including the US. The (in)ability to budget, or to earn an income are irrelevant. Lending money, or co-signing a loan are risky. As several financial experts have noted...you should consider a loan as a gift because, the chances are the receiver will treat it as a gift.

[Khun Bob]

Excellent post GH - sound insight

Asset protection is key everywhere and for farangs embarking or all ready undertaking a life (or part of ) in thailand i think that establishing some rules of play are critical - this website has alot of the raw information and advice - but it is a personal choice what those rules are. But having the ability to turn your heart to stone can be useful., particularly in dubious displays of emotion. Surprisingly if you 'just say no' - they get by and often there may be no hard feelings - but this can only be guaged by experience.

Still if youve lost most or all to the debt of a loved one you can all way sell t-shirts to new farangs in thailand that state "Just say no" as well as "No money No Honey" - because there seems to be a relationship between the two.

[mike1963]

Great post - you took a lot of time there giving valuable advice to the next victim out there

Hope somedy takes heed intead of just slagging the op off

well done again

Mike

[mike1963]

somedy

(somebody)

[Thaddeus]

Great post - you took a lot of time there giving valuable advice to the next victim out there

Hope somedy takes heed intead of just slagging the op off

Agreed, good post GH

A few personal experiences from me.

Shortly after I moved here I got a request from Ma In Law for 10k Baht, they needed some 'chemicals' for the trees and they would pay me back within a week. I lent them the money, thinking that if I got it back, great, if I didn't I could remind them of it while delivering a firm 'no' if they asked again. I got it back within 3 days, simple fact of the matter was, the 'chemical shop' was open on a Saturday but the Farmers Bank wasn't.

A week later, Naa Kee Mao (Uncle Drunk) asked for 20k Baht..... "why?" .... it transpired that he had loaned money out to a few people and not been repaid.... my answer "that's his problem not ours...No"

Last year I discovered that the wife had countersigned a loan, money had been borrowed on a motorcy by a 'girl' that had some gambling debts, needless to say I wasn't happy when I found out (I didn't spit my dummy out, the wife and I had a quiet, detailed, chat about it) I only found out about it because the 'girl' gambled away the money she had borrowed and the motorcy shop wanted either the money or the bike back..... so, after our, detailed, chat, we went and found the 'girl' and repossessed the motorcy ourselves. The shop then marked the loan doc as paid in full.

That taught my wife a valuable lesson.

Now, when it comes to money, we both have hearts of stone.

[LoveDaBlues]

I’m starting this thread as a carry over from a discussion within the “Thai Love Affair With Credit” thread over on the News Branch.

There is an inevitable amount of double coverage, but I hope the Mods will bear with me on that as I think this is a particularly important topic for Farangs in Thailand to understand.

We often hear two peaces of basic financial advice with respect to Thailand –

‘Never bring to Thailand any money to that you can’t afford to loose”

And

‘Never a borrower or a lender be’

True, the latter is good advice the world over, while the former comes from the long hard

experience of very many Farangs who have lost their life’s savings in scams, relationship

breakdowns and business failures (malicious and otherwise).

It would be easy to blame Thais for all these losses, but often a foreigner will ignore

warnings and cautions that are explicit. Common sense, as un common as it clearly is, seems to be left at the immigration counter on the way in.

So that said. Here is a warning that outstrips both of the two above in terms of seriousness.

“Do Not Ever Be The Guarantor Of Someone Else’s Debts/Loans’

The reason is, if they don’t pay, you must - And because not paying debts is often one failure among many, it is highly likely that the person who’s debt/loan you have guaranteed will not inform you of problems until the debt collectors come a-calling.

I have it on good authority that even then, they may deny they have any knowledge of the fact they have not paid their debts for months or longer.

OK – But this is true of everywhere, why is it specifically important in Thailand?

The problem in Thailand is, tied up with all the other ‘financial risks’ in Thailand.

But first among all is you do not have to sign on the line to underwrite someone else’s debts – You may have already done that when you got married.

And just make note of this: A debt you have underwritten, knowingly or otherwise, might very well exceed what you have brought to Thailand and what you can afford to loose

The root of the problem is, very few Thais are educated in finance, I know, they can micromanage household accounts, living on a few Bht above that necessary to feed a mouse. But they go to pieces when it comes to ‘Easy Money and Easy Terms’.

To give an idea. I worked in an office where the Thai Staff salaries ranged from perhaps Bht15K per month, to over Bht200K per month. Most professionals in the office being in the Bh30-80K mark.

Almost-Every-Single-One-Of-Them was hocked up to the eyeballs to buy ‘FLASH NEW CARS’.

If you’ve lived in Thailand, you know how it goes, living in a shack with a BMW parked in the living room.

Which is a good place to park the BM, because the deeds to the land and shack are almost certainly lodged with the bank to buy the car.

All this is fine until things take a turn for financial worse, at which time debts aren’t paid, car, house and land to got he court/banks. – It is not always bad news - My wife and I bought a beautiful 10 Rai plot of land lost to a Bht700K loan to buy a car. –

Huge Numbers of Thais do this.

Make sure you don’t get caught. - Don’t let it be your beautiful plot of land or home going under the hammer for someone’s unpaid debts.

The first thing to keep an eye on is the title deeds to your own property. A dear friend of mine, sadly killed in a road accident last year. Lost his home when he realized the reason why his wife had legged it was, she had hocked the house and the bank was on the way over to take possession.

You might call this 'Sudden Debt of a Loved One', eitherway, you can guess it's not a pleasent experience.

They bought the place with his hard earned cash; He had signed to say he had no financial interest in house; The deeds where in her name and she hocked the deeds at the bank – for goodness knows what reason.

What reasons might there be for her to have done such a thing?

Well there’s always the good old gambling debts ( a favorite with many Thais), getting a ‘Line’ down at the gambling den is so much easier with a rich Farang to back up the losses.

Then there is the ever present ‘Family Pressure’ and this is how you managed to underwrite other people’s debts by getting married.

I personally know people who have suddenly learned that their wife’s family are hugely in debt – A wife crying in the corner at the prospects of her mamma becoming homeless (or worse still moving in with you, bringing all twenty four grandchildren and her stash of beetle nut with her).

What are you going to do? You can’t say ‘No, throw her on the street’ – Well you could but you’d be a better man than me.

Likewise I have a friend who’s wife came screaming into the office demanding that he accompany her to the police station – and bring the house deeds with him – her older brother having been arrested and charged, house deeds where needed as collateral to “Spring him’ on bale – Like how would you feel about that?! It is after all another form of underwriting a debt.

More commonly I think, family pressure may mean your wife, with her established bank account and credit record, may be pressured to underwrite loans for family members. My wife had done this before we met and I have several friends who’s wife’s have done likewise.

The problem with all of these cases is the very dangerous mixture of finance and relationships – If things go wrong, if debts are not paid, if the brother skips bail you are thrown into the fire with your wife against her family – And you are NEVER going to win that one.

What to do?

We non of us can do anything about what ‘Trink’ calls Manure HuMan Nature. The only thing you can do is start with early damage limitation.

Depending on your wife’s outlook and understanding of these matters, you need to Press Press and Press again to get the message through that she must not sign loan agreements for family.

If you are worried you can’t get that message through, do your best to try and prevent her holding too many funds in the bank under her name whereby she can build a bank record that would support a loan application – Hard, I know, but so are consequences of failing to get the message across.

Next you need to school your wife and her family in debt control. You might do this by offering concerned advice – they might not listen, but at least you hare trying.

Whatever, keep an eye out for any signs of loans, credit cards, brochures for cars etc appearing.

Plead poverty (I do this all the time because I really am a pauper), but don’t go giving the impression your salted and have a never ending fund of money – If you are and you have, keep it quiet, keep it offshore.

Keep the deeds to land and property locked up, don’t let them suddenly become someone else’s collateral.

GET that Lease done. Yes, can lease gives you protection to occupy your property even if it is sold.

Get involved with the family’s discussion on money. If you hear or see that plans are being made, get in there and temper them a bit to keep them within reality.

Learn to say ‘No’ early. It’s no good letting an expectation arise that you are going to underwrite a debt and then later on saying no.

Say ‘No’ early and mean it.

I’ve had this conversation with my own wife, and it is not easy, but it must be had. Set out early explain exactly why you will not ever underwrite someone else’s debt.

And don’t think it ends with your wife’s immediate family. When my best mate in Thailand married, distant relatives his wife had never met rocked up at our wedding – the beer had hardly been cracked open before he was getting offers of ‘certain to win investments.. we don’t need your money but would you counter sign the loan?!’.

Just Say No!

It is a lot easier in the long run.

2 months ago I picked up 5.5 rai at around 20% of the going rate because the guys Toyota truck was about to be repoed........schweeeeeeet

[backflip]

"2 months ago I picked up 5.5 rai at around 20% of the going rate because the guys Toyota truck was about to be repoed........schweeeeeeet"

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

[eljeque]

Time and time again, borrowers will wait until the last second to access money to stop from losing an asset. In the case above, if the owner of the 5.5 rai of land had started looking to sell it well before his truck was going to be repossessed, he would have been able to get a a price closer to the market price rather than 20% of the market price.

In Pattaya and I am sure in other parts of Thailand, the same situation is common with motorcycles. The salesmen/credit companies make it so cheap and easy to buy a bike that everyone and his/her brother is out there buying one. They cannot afford the payments very long, and then the inevitable happens, and they need to sell it fast, as they are paying a large amount in interest.

America is about the same with houses.

[ThaiPauly]

I for one cannot understand the negivity aimed at Guesthouse's post.

Guess the negative ones have already been scammed!

Keep em coming GH...for a lot of newbies especially it is very sound advice, and your effort for posting is most comendable

[otherstuff1957]

The OP makes some very good points! My wife wanted me to help out old Uncle Som who had put up his house a collateral for a loan for his brother in law. When said b-in-l gambled away the money and skipped town, the bank started knocking on Uncle Som's door!

It was quite a sob story, but I simply was not going to borrow 300K to help him out! When I refused, they made a deal with the bank and everyone kicked in 20K or so instead.

[JimsKnight]

I’m starting this thread as a carry over from a discussion within the “Thai Love Affair With Credit” thread over on the News Branch.

There is an inevitable amount of double coverage, but I hope the Mods will bear with me on that as I think this is a particularly important topic for Farangs in Thailand to understand.

We often hear two peaces of basic financial advice with respect to Thailand –

‘Never bring to Thailand any money to that you can’t afford to loose”

And

‘Neaff salaries ranged from perhaps Bht15K per month, to over Bht200K per month. Most professionals in the office being in the Bh30-80K mark.

Almost-Every-Single-One-Of-Them was hocked up to the eyeballs to buy ‘FLASH NEW CARS’.

If you’ve lived in Thailand, you know how it goes, living in a shack with a BMW parked in the living room.

Which is a good place to park the BM, because the deeds to the land and shack are almost certainly lodged wit

Likewise I have a friend who’s wife came screaming into the office demanding that he accompany her to the police station – and bring the house deeds with him – her older brother having been ou h

And don’t think it ends with your wife’s immediate family. When my best mate in Thailand married, distant relatives his wife had never met rocked up at our wedding – the beer had hardly been cracked open before he was getting offers of ‘certain to win investments.. we don’t need your money but would you counter sign the loan?!’.

Just Say No!

It is a lot easier in the long run.

This is a problem and a friend of mine headed over on his first trip to Thailand ever with his thai girlfriend who had earned 8000 euros from being 'on the game' in Germany. Straight on a bus from BKK to Issansvile/Khmer corner (next to Laos/Cambodai borders).

They get to her families house with my mate in tow.

My buddies oblivious to the small scammy ways, but its no big deal as its just small sht like meals and trips for the family etc.

Anyway, all of a sudden this girls elder sister drops the bombshell and blackmails said girl into paying off the family debts otherwise she'd spill the beans on what she'd been doing in Germany i.e on the game!

All her hard-earned cash literally snatched from her hands. This followed days of argueing and fighting.

My friend gobsmacked by the whole ordeal never came back to Thailand again. He seems to like the PI now despite my reasoning that theres much better times to be had in LOS but he just won't buy it.

Maybe Thats the way it seems to go out here were a life of credit is king! And the money earned seems to belong to the family as a whole rather than the individual.

I say to hel_l with that plan!

I think any falang even considering marriage to a loved one out here needs to do some serious digging into the foundations. If what I suspect some girls and/or their families are doing is marrying a falang for debt recovery then we need to be careful.

[sting01]

Maybe Thats the way it seems to go out here were a life of credit is king! And the money earned seems to belong to the family as a whole rather than the individual.

I say to hel_l with that plan!

Well, familly bound or familly ties.

That is what make thailand so appealing and so digusting on the same time. You explained why disgusting.

But you have to understand the reasons of that, let say how can you be so cold hearted and let in hel_l the members of your familly who are simply trying to enjoy their life with some simple pleasures : heavy gambling, the monthly new celllphone, the 4th mia noi (or the fith or the third ....). How dare are you to offer as uniq solution : go to work!!! Even if your friend gf was on the game in germany, you have to understand she earned money only because the parents gave her birth, raised her, feed her ...

I do not shares those beliefs, far of it; but they are reality here. You , you are able to say no, but a local can not, because it will be always something/someone to pressure. Saddly!!!!!!!!!

[backflip]

After I read through tihs discussion, I realized that the entire concept of "Thais doing anything to save face" is a load of cr@p, and is just another excuse for a GF to raid your wallet.