US activists try to calm fears over transgender bathroom access

[Jingthing]

To add, cross dressers are not the same thing as transgender people.

Cross dressers generally have a gender identity as their birth sex, but sometimes cross dress for various reasons, including providing entertainment.

People who participate in cross dressing have diverse sexual preference orientations.

Trangender people generally have a deep need to change their gender identity from the their birth sex. The steps they go in pursuit of this are very personal decisions, from "all in chop off" to more moderate adjustments. Transitions regardless of the level of the steps, will usually be a PROCESS taking years.

It's a very serious LIFETIME and LIFE CHANGING decision to make. It's not a spur of the moment whim. It's a burden to change genders but people needing to do it feel it's a bigger burden NOT to change.

A trend now is for younger people to realize they are transgender and take steps earlier, even for males to chemically retard male puberty. Yes, controversial but it is a trend. Starting younger will generally achieve more visually convincing gender changes.

Transgender people have diverse sexual preference orientations.

Also, sorry such things are complicated, different CULTURES have specific traditions around both cross dressing, transgender issues, and sexual orientation. As this is a Thailand forum, it's worth noting that the Thai ladyboy thing is a specifically Thai tradition that doesn't always fit into more western approaches of classifications.

Of course, this is a U.S. topic ... as there is lots of political NOISE and mania right now around transgender access to public toilets.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

There is only one fair and simple way to resolve all this, we need more toilets. Gay men toilets, straight men toilets, bisexual men toilets, gay women toilets, straight women toilets, bisexual women toilets, transgender men post op toilets, transvestite men toilets, transgender women post op toilets, transvestite women toilets, ladyboy fancier toilets, men bestiality toilets, women bestiality toilets.

Then after phase one complete at how many billions, we can move on the phase two: conservative toilets, leftist toilets, anarchist toilets etc.

The final phase can then be undertaken: gay conservative toilets, bisexual leftist toilets, anarchist overweight lesbian toilets, short straight liberal toilets...

I am afraid you left out the habitual apolitical masturbators , we would need several different facilities for them as there are male, female and an infinite number of in-betweens

better yet

How about we make society in to a huge big toilet that way we accommodate every one.

[lostboy]

The thread title mentions "fear over transgender bathroom access".

One of those fears is that an innocent woman or young girl being sexually assaulted by a tranny in the ladies bathroom or girls' locker room.

I've asked this question several times, but interestingly have not yet received an answer. Maybe the reason it's not being answered is because it's hitting too close to the mark. But I'll ask it again:

What percentage of sex offenders have ever engaged in cross dressing or have ever "identified" as transgender"?

I would think that it's not an insignificant number. I also think this is a legitimate question that needs to be answered before we allow every Tom, Dick and tranny to enter a girls' locker room or a ladies' bathroom.

Your premise is wrong

we are not concerned with transgender people sexually assaulting young girls or boys in the bathrooms.

We are concerned that a system set to accommodate Transgender people will be abused by non Transgender people.

Consider the following

according to statistics transgender people constitute .3% of the population. The vast majority of this .3% being legitimate. If there are any that present a danger, they are such a small percentage of a small percentage that they present a statistically insignificant danger.

That leaves the remaining 99.7% that would also have have access and be able to game the system. That's where the danger is.

Public buildings are constructed using pubic funds and should be accessed by all the 'public' irrespective of their identity or what proportion of the population that minority comprises. I do not argue against your point of focussing attention on where risks of sexual offences may lie but your focus on the smallness of the minority I believe is not relevant to the issue of using public facilities.

Furthermore, public facilities require management and administration by some public authority, even if it is as simple as hiring cleaners and providing basic maintenance. It is the responsibility of the authority that manages a facility to address any and all issues related to the operation of the facility, access to the facility and anything else that relates to that facility. I recall similar furores over handicapped access to public facilities including bathrooms/toilets in the 80's. Now it is accepted that there are ramps and purpose built facilities for physically handicapped people.

How can authorities manage this problem? Certainly not by letting the issue of sexual predation by males drive the agenda. As with most things, these issues can be managed by information, inclusivity and understanding. Non Unisex facilities could have signs posted that provide access for trans people but also provide some mechanism for people uncomfortable with this to avoid the situation. Maybe hotlines or information services or other initiatives to raise awareness can be used. I posted earlier statistics that demonstrate that when people learn about transgender people and issues they are more accepting of their needs. I am not an expert in facilities management but I know that people have that expertise to ensure that public facilities are managed in a way that does not discriminate against any member of the public. The concept of equal protection is surely apolitical.

On the off topic issue of sexual predation, there are also many strategies that law enforcement, public policy officials and mental health experts can use to deal with this. The hysteria over a non-existent scenario of real Trans people using bathroom access for sexual assault is merely to promote hysteria and bigotry. It just does not happen when real Trans people are concerned. Sensible people know how to approach public policy issues in ways that do not discriminate or promote hate.

Edited April 9, 2016 by lostboy

[Jingthing]

Honestly, the only practical widespread policy decision is for people to decide for themselves which gender toilet to use based on their common sense of how they are presenting gender-wise (causing the least disruption) and also how they identify themselves. Will people always make the best decisions? Probably not, but people still need to use the toilet.

It can't practically be policed with I.D.s. More unisex toilets would help too.

When there is criminal behavior from ANYONE, whatever their gender or orientation status, then that is a POLICE matter which shouldn't discriminate based on such things.

The anti-GLBT fear mongers suggest more tolerant policies allowing transgender people to decide for themselves will be a special crime threat to society. It's BS.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

This topic is not about sex offenders. it is about public bathrooms.

What a crock, indeed.

The thread title is, 'US activists try to calm fears over transgender bathroom access".

That very real and rational fear is primarily about women and young girls being assaulted by sex offenders.

The continued attempts to minimize and evade the question about the percentage of sex offenders who have ever cross dressed or ever "identitifed" as a tranny makes me even more sure that this is hitting close to the mark.

Edited April 9, 2016 by up-country_sinclair

[lostboy]

This topic is not about sex offenders. it is about public bathrooms.

What a crock, indeed.

The thread title is, 'US activists try to calm fears over transgender bathroom access".

That very real and rational fear is primarily about women and young girls being assaulted by sex offenders.

Your continued attempts to minimize and evade the question about the percentage of sex offenders who have ever cross dressed or ever "identitifed" as a tranny makes me even more sure that this is hitting close to the mark.

You have what authority to demand that I answer any question? Absolutely none. Your continued harping on the issue of sexual offenders is nothing to do with Transgender us of toilets. The fear that you cite as the opportunity to spread your hate and bigotry is entirely your own. It does not justify turning this topic into a litany of anecdotes about male sexual offenders.

LGBT people are not perverts. LGBT people are not deviants. Your continued insinuations of this is base, shameful and disgraceful.

Those of us who take this topic seriously and there are more of them than the frat boy jokers who have posted, reject your immature conflation of men in dressers and perverts with LGBT people.

Do your own damn research. You will find that your scenario does not exist. In this case, I will assume that you will continue to post off topic videos and links on sexual offences to manufacture such connections. As the moderator has observed. You can't fix stupid.

[up-country_sinclair]

You have what authority to demand that I answer any question? Absolutely none. Your continued harping on the issue of sexual offenders is nothing to do with Transgender us of toilets. The fear that you cite as the opportunity to spread your hate and bigotry is entirely your own. It does not justify turning this topic into a litany of anecdotes about male sexual offenders.

LGBT people are not perverts. LGBT people are not deviants. Your continued insinuations of this is base, shameful and disgraceful.

Settle down, dear. I never demanded that you do anything.

Furthermore, I never said that TLGB people are perverts or that BGTL people are deviants. All I did is ask what percentage of sex offenders have ever cross dressed or "identified" as transgender.

The words "calm fears" are written clearly in the thread title, and the primary fear is that some tranny is going to sexually assault women and young girls.

You seem fine taking that risk to advance your agenda. Voters and lawmakers in many part of the US disagree with you.

[sirineou]

The thread title mentions "fear over transgender bathroom access".

One of those fears is that an innocent woman or young girl being sexually assaulted by a tranny in the ladies bathroom or girls' locker room.

I've asked this question several times, but interestingly have not yet received an answer. Maybe the reason it's not being answered is because it's hitting too close to the mark. But I'll ask it again:

What percentage of sex offenders have ever engaged in cross dressing or have ever "identified" as transgender"?

I would think that it's not an insignificant number. I also think this is a legitimate question that needs to be answered before we allow every Tom, Dick and tranny to enter a girls' locker room or a ladies' bathroom.

Your premise is wrong

we are not concerned with transgender people sexually assaulting young girls or boys in the bathrooms.

We are concerned that a system set to accommodate Transgender people will be abused by non Transgender people.

Consider the following

according to statistics transgender people constitute .3% of the population. The vast majority of this .3% being legitimate. If there are any that present a danger, they are such a small percentage of a small percentage that they present a statistically insignificant danger.

That leaves the remaining 99.7% that would also have have access and be able to game the system. That's where the danger is.

Public buildings are constructed using pubic funds and should be accessed by all the 'public' irrespective of their identity or what proportion of the population that minority comprises. I do not argue against your point of focussing attention on where risks of sexual offences may lie but your focus on the smallness of the minority I believe is not relevant to the issue of using public facilities.

Furthermore, public facilities require management and administration by some public authority, even if it is as simple as hiring cleaners and providing basic maintenance. It is the responsibility of the authority that manages a facility to address any and all issues related to the operation of the facility, access to the facility and anything else that relates to that facility. I recall similar furores over handicapped access to public facilities including bathrooms/toilets in the 80's. Now it is accepted that there are ramps and purpose built facilities for physically handicapped people.

How can authorities manage this problem? Certainly not by letting the issue of sexual predation by males drive the agenda. As with most things, these issues can be managed by information, inclusivity and understanding. Non Unisex facilities could have signs posted that provide access for trans people but also provide some mechanism for people uncomfortable with this to avoid the situation. Maybe hotlines or information services or other initiatives to raise awareness can be used. I posted earlier statistics that demonstrate that when people learn about transgender people and issues they are more accepting of their needs. I am not an expert in facilities management but I know that people have that expertise to ensure that public facilities are managed in a way that does not discriminate against any member of the public. The concept of equal protection is surely apolitical.

On the off topic issue of sexual predation, there are also many strategies that law enforcement, public policy officials and mental health experts can use to deal with this. The hysteria over a non-existent scenario of real Trans people using bathroom access for sexual assault is merely to promote hysteria and bigotry. It just does not happen when real Trans people are concerned. Sensible people know how to approach public policy issues in ways that do not discriminate or promote hate.

a well thought out an reasonable response,

But, there is always a but

But , in a world of limited resources one needs to prioritize their allocation.

Three words, Cost /benefit assessment,

[lostboy]

The conflation of sexual assault with the Trans use of bathrooms is clearly a scare tactic. The real reason behind these laws is not the protection of women and children but to maintain the 'non right' of religious people to discriminate against LGBT people in denying employment and public and private services. Since such concepts of 'religious liberty' are rejected by most people, especially the next generation of Millenials, the anti LGBT people have to use deceit and fear to push their intolerance.

"A sexual assault survivor and long-time advocate for other victims of sexual assault has explained exactly why anti-LGBT "bathroom bills" that cast transgender people as sexual predators do nothing to help victims of sexual assault" http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/03/28/a-sexual-assault-survivor-explains-the-hypocris/209572

Experts in 12 states -- including law enforcement officials, government employees, and advocates for victims of sexual assault -- have debunked the right-wing myth that sexual predators will exploit transgender non-discrimination laws to sneak into women's restrooms, calling the myth baseless and "beyond specious." http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

Playing on people's fears. Intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

[lostboy]

You have what authority to demand that I answer any question? Absolutely none. Your continued harping on the issue of sexual offenders is nothing to do with Transgender us of toilets. The fear that you cite as the opportunity to spread your hate and bigotry is entirely your own. It does not justify turning this topic into a litany of anecdotes about male sexual offenders.

LGBT people are not perverts. LGBT people are not deviants. Your continued insinuations of this is base, shameful and disgraceful.

Settle down, dear. I never demanded that you do anything.

Furthermore, I never said that TLGB people are perverts or that BGTL people are deviants. All I did is ask what percentage of sex offenders have ever cross dressed or "identified" as transgender.

The words "calm fears" are written clearly in the thread title, and the primary fear is that some tranny is going to sexually assault women and young girls.

You seem fine taking that risk to advance your agenda. Voters and lawmakers in many part of the US disagree with you.

Why do you call me dear. It is not my username. You persist in off topic posts and now you directly violate the forum rules by not showing respect to another forum member. By using language designed to inflame and humiliate. This tactic is merely a repetition of your off topic posts about sexual offenders that have nothing to do with Trans bathroom access. This tactic is merely a reputation of your demands for posters to research data that does not exist because it is a fantasy in your mind. This tactic is entirely consistent with your whole approach to this issue. Juvenile, facile, sophomoric rubbish. Intentional disrespect of LGBT people. Intentional disrespect of other posters.

I am not your dear. You do not give instructions to other posters to do anything on this forum.

[up-country_sinclair]

The conflation of sexual assault with the Trans use of bathrooms is clearly a scare tactic. The real reason behind these laws is not the protection of women and children but to maintain the 'non right' of religious people to discriminate against LGBT people in denying employment and public and private services.

Mind reading is an impressive skill.

It's not a scare tactic if it's a real danger. There have been several posts on this thread showing that trannies have sexually assaulted women and girls in bathrooms and locker rooms. Brutal sexual assaults that some are choosing to minimize in order to advance their agenda which is little more than an ill conceived sociology experiment.

No one is denying BGTL people any rights that normal people don't have. Biological men can't enter the ladies' room or girls' locker room. Trannies shouldn't be given special rights just because they're wearing a dress.

[2fishin2]

The conflation of sexual assault with the Trans use of bathrooms is clearly a scare tactic. The real reason behind these laws is not the protection of women and children but to maintain the 'non right' of religious people to discriminate against LGBT people in denying employment and public and private services.

Mind reading is an impressive skill.

It's not a scare tactic if it's a real danger. There have been several posts on this thread showing that trannies have sexually assaulted women and girls in bathrooms and locker rooms. Brutal sexual assaults that some are choosing to minimize in order to advance their agenda which is little more than an ill conceived sociology experiment.

No one is denying BGTL people any rights that normal people don't have. Biological men can't enter the ladies' room or girls' locker room. Trannies shouldn't be given special rights just because they're wearing a dress.

Lostboy its time to put this person on your ignore list. Dont let him drag you into these side arguments. Take the high road. You are better than this guy.

[Jingthing]

Three Daily Show segments about the politics of the transgender toilet access issue in the U.S.:

http://www.towleroad.com/2016/04/daily-show-transgender/

Edited April 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Lostboy its time to put this person on your ignore list. Dont let him drag you into these side arguments. Take the high road. You are better than this guy.

Second that.

Otherwise it's an endless loop of anti-GLBT slurs and hate speech.

Nothing original at all. Why bother?

[lostboy]

The thread title mentions "fear over transgender bathroom access".

One of those fears is that an innocent woman or young girl being sexually assaulted by a tranny in the ladies bathroom or girls' locker room.

I've asked this question several times, but interestingly have not yet received an answer. Maybe the reason it's not being answered is because it's hitting too close to the mark. But I'll ask it again:

What percentage of sex offenders have ever engaged in cross dressing or have ever "identified" as transgender"?

I would think that it's not an insignificant number. I also think this is a legitimate question that needs to be answered before we allow every Tom, Dick and tranny to enter a girls' locker room or a ladies' bathroom.

Your premise is wrong

we are not concerned with transgender people sexually assaulting young girls or boys in the bathrooms.

We are concerned that a system set to accommodate Transgender people will be abused by non Transgender people.

Consider the following

according to statistics transgender people constitute .3% of the population. The vast majority of this .3% being legitimate. If there are any that present a danger, they are such a small percentage of a small percentage that they present a statistically insignificant danger.

That leaves the remaining 99.7% that would also have have access and be able to game the system. That's where the danger is.

Public buildings are constructed using pubic funds and should be accessed by all the 'public' irrespective of their identity or what proportion of the population that minority comprises. I do not argue against your point of focussing attention on where risks of sexual offences may lie but your focus on the smallness of the minority I believe is not relevant to the issue of using public facilities.

Furthermore, public facilities require management and administration by some public authority, even if it is as simple as hiring cleaners and providing basic maintenance. It is the responsibility of the authority that manages a facility to address any and all issues related to the operation of the facility, access to the facility and anything else that relates to that facility. I recall similar furores over handicapped access to public facilities including bathrooms/toilets in the 80's. Now it is accepted that there are ramps and purpose built facilities for physically handicapped people.

How can authorities manage this problem? Certainly not by letting the issue of sexual predation by males drive the agenda. As with most things, these issues can be managed by information, inclusivity and understanding. Non Unisex facilities could have signs posted that provide access for trans people but also provide some mechanism for people uncomfortable with this to avoid the situation. Maybe hotlines or information services or other initiatives to raise awareness can be used. I posted earlier statistics that demonstrate that when people learn about transgender people and issues they are more accepting of their needs. I am not an expert in facilities management but I know that people have that expertise to ensure that public facilities are managed in a way that does not discriminate against any member of the public. The concept of equal protection is surely apolitical.

On the off topic issue of sexual predation, there are also many strategies that law enforcement, public policy officials and mental health experts can use to deal with this. The hysteria over a non-existent scenario of real Trans people using bathroom access for sexual assault is merely to promote hysteria and bigotry. It just does not happen when real Trans people are concerned. Sensible people know how to approach public policy issues in ways that do not discriminate or promote hate.

a well thought out an reasonable response,

But, there is always a but

But , in a world of limited resources one needs to prioritize their allocation.

Three words, Cost /benefit assessment,

Serious questions deserve serious responses. Besides a good fight helps get the post count up so that you graduate to that level where certain rules don't apply.

Cost Benefit Analyses are entirely based on assumptions. Different assumptions, different results. They make great employment for economic consultants and occupy lots of time in discussions in public policy debates. Been there done that and am still doing it. Your core assumption is based on statistical data on numbers of Transgender people proportionate to the rest of the population. ).3% you have mentioned. I have no idea if that is correct but the exact number doesn't count. My assumptions are different. My assumptions are based on the idea that a public restroom is a public good.

Public goods have two distinct aspects: nonexcludability and nonrivalrous consumption. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PublicGoods.html

The technical terms are explained in the link if you like. You also have issues that economists call 'externalities' which is the cost or benefit that affects a party who did not choose to incur that cost or benefit. This could include things like the impact on public health or sanitation if people kept throwing their piss pots into the middle of the street like they did in medieval times.

So I think you may want to be careful about the idea of CBA for public goods like public toilet facilities.

I think it is irrelevant actually. I have seen a bunch of universal access toilets in many places. The first one I saw was in Oxford Street next to the Starbucks opposite Selfridges some time ago. Big round thing stuck next to the outdoor seating. Cost 50p to use. Big enough for handicapped people and no indication of gender identity necessary. I used another one inside the US Embassy in Kabul last month. Takes so long to get through security that I was bursting. A little embarrassing when I was followed inside by my colleague and it turned out to be an individual unisex universal access facility. I also notice that those Porta-Potties that are used for temporary toilet access at public events and on building sites are not colour coded for gender. Men, Women, Trans people alike line up to use them.

Like I said, there are a bunch of strategies that can be used to deal with this issue. It does not necessarily mean that all facilities now have to have multiple restrooms for 3 genders and handicapped. Maybe some will in the future. Maybe there will be more unisex options. Individual toilets with strong locks. Who knows. What I do know is that this issue has absolutely nothing to do with male sexual offenders

[Wilsonandson]

Breaking News!!!

Bruce Springsteen cancels North Carolina concert over bathroom bill

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0X52DA

[Scotwight]

Apparently not just an American problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ThZVR4O3wU

[jak2002003]

Taken from the OP:

said Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality. "They're going to claim trans people are sexual predators

Well, I'm not claiming that all trannies are sexual predators, but it would be interesting to know what percentage of sexual offenders have this transgender fetish as their primary psychological sexual disorder.

Being transgender is not a fetish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet a very low percentage of transgendered people commit sex crimes as heterosexual men! Men are the problem.. straight men are the ones that rape women. Not gays, not lesbians, and not transgendered people.

Perhaps we should ban men form being anywhere near womens toilets.. and not let them look after little girls either. It is often said that all heterosexual men are potential rapists......

So you men... how do you like to know women think you are a potential rapist? Fell nice? Agree?

Some people are idiotic!

"So you men... how do you like to know women think you are a potential rapist? Fell nice? Agree? "

I'm 78 years old. I would be honored if some pretty young thing thought I was a threat to her innocence.

Some arguments are idiotic!

You know there are a lot of OAPs. that are perverts and have been arrested for flashing in public and molesting little girls...

You would really be honored if some young girl thought you were being a threat to her? Not so honored if she went to the police.

[up-country_sinclair]

Apparently not just an American problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ThZVR4O3wU

The tranny in this video says (in an alarmingly deep voice), "So, I can't go for a wee then?"

Actually, you can. In the mens' bathroom. As often as you like. Go for it.

But later in the video after the manager appeals for common sense, the tranny says, "So, I can't go for a wee then. Unless I go in the mens"?

BINGO!

Well, there's some progress!

Edited April 9, 2016 by up-country_sinclair

[Scott]

Some obviously baiting posts have been removed. Continue and you will receive a suspension.

[CousinEddie]

Sorted.

Now, if this confuses you, wear a god damned diaper.

.

Edited April 9, 2016 by CousinEddie

[Puccini]

In my case, I was confused until I realised that the bathroom mentioned in the topic title and in some posts is not a room where people go to have a bath or to shower.

[grumpyoldman]

In my case, I was confused until I realised that the bathroom mentioned in the topic title and in some posts is not a room where people go to have a bath or to shower.

Yes, it can be very confusing.

Restroom- people may or may not have a rest there

Water Closet (aka WC)- there is water but it is not actually a closet

Comfort room-would depend on the circumstances I suppose

privy- are you privy?

latrine- not to be confused with tureen, that could be messy !!!

[Jingthing]

It's a U.S. topic.

In American English bathroom means either your private bathroom which will have a bath/shower AND toilet or a PUBLIC BATHROOM also called a RESTROOM that will generally only have toilets, with no bath. Public men's bathrooms will of course also have urinals.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[HLover]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

[sirineou]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

They will, just as soon as you send your contribution.

[HLover]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

They will, just as soon as you send your contribution.

They will not grant me a visa to contribute, so sorry.

[sirineou]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

They will, just as soon as you send your contribution.

They will not grant me a visa to contribute, so sorry.

Send it to me, I will get it there for you

[sirineou]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

They will, just as soon as you send your contribution.

They will not grant me a visa to contribute, so sorry.

Or...

Perhaps if you started cross dressing and told them you have to use the bathroom

[Puccini]

The places could build a 3rd gender WC if they are so worried.

It wouldn't do for Lila, according to what he says in the video. He does not want to be segregated, pushed out, discriminated against. He insists on being allowed to use the women's toilets and lockerroom.