Bringing Thaksin To Account

[ColPyat]

The problem is that when Thailand has strong government either elected or miliary then it tends to be authoritarian or worse. That leaves a big conundrum if the people really want strong government (not sure on that) how do you ensure it will not be authoritarian or worse murderous? Thailand has a long way to go. Democracy as we know is about a lot more than elections and the development of what we call civil society and other democratic institution is where Thailand is way off the game although as it was feudal only a bunch of decades ago probably only to be expected. Thailand is howeevr, like many developing countries way up on the elections which do not mean democracy on their own but keep you in with the powerful world players of the US and EU. A kind of partial democracy without the other stuff in which checks and balances only exist through coalition government. The step to single party government was a backward one in terms of democratic development, freedom and openness with the only effective check and balance suddenly removed and the newly legislated ones too open to interference or too unsure of themselves to be effective. Of course military governments should never be praised either.

By the way I am not disputing the drug war was popular, not that that makes it any more accptable. I was making a general point about the use of fear for other purposes ie retaining power and information flow control.

The TRT government could have been a step towards a full democracy, if a bit of time would have been given. A few years down the line TRT would have inevitably split up (the PAD is to be seen as mostly an internal TRT split - the most powerful leaders, Chamlong and Sondhi, were strong Thaksin supporters, and so were many of the powerful PAD supporters in the background).

In many ways TRT was a step back, but in some ways TRT has achieved many things that none of the weak coalition governments previously have been able to do.

But now we have a military junta, and that definitely is not a step forward by any means.

[hammered]

The problem is that when Thailand has strong government either elected or miliary then it tends to be authoritarian or worse. That leaves a big conundrum if the people really want strong government (not sure on that) how do you ensure it will not be authoritarian or worse murderous? Thailand has a long way to go. Democracy as we know is about a lot more than elections and the development of what we call civil society and other democratic institution is where Thailand is way off the game although as it was feudal only a bunch of decades ago probably only to be expected. Thailand is howeevr, like many developing countries way up on the elections which do not mean democracy on their own but keep you in with the powerful world players of the US and EU. A kind of partial democracy without the other stuff in which checks and balances only exist through coalition government. The step to single party government was a backward one in terms of democratic development, freedom and openness with the only effective check and balance suddenly removed and the newly legislated ones too open to interference or too unsure of themselves to be effective. Of course military governments should never be praised either.

By the way I am not disputing the drug war was popular, not that that makes it any more accptable. I was making a general point about the use of fear for other purposes ie retaining power and information flow control.

The TRT government could have been a step towards a full democracy, if a bit of time would have been given. A few years down the line TRT would have inevitably split up (the PAD is to be seen as mostly an internal TRT split - the most powerful leaders, Chamlong and Sondhi, were strong Thaksin supporters, and so were many of the powerful PAD supporters in the background).

In many ways TRT was a step back, but in some ways TRT has achieved many things that none of the weak coalition governments previously have been able to do.

But now we have a military junta, and that definitely is not a step forward by any means.

Which is why I use the Singapore analogy. A dodgy democracy. A first family. A parliament that assists the first family and allies businesses. A lack of rights and freedoms but with cash in your pocket ensured. I think that is what T was trying to copy. Obviously the killing went a bit further than the jailings of Singapore and the cash in the pocket was more credit but I think the idea was similar. Was the trade off worth it? That is for every person to decide for themselves. Not for me or my family. I am not so sure the TRT would have split down the line, but we will never know. But that aside we see a new class in Thailand emerging now as the urban working class. Soon their interests will be different from those of the lower rural class and there will be an opportunity for more class based politics as history tells us that urban classes are a lot harder to manipulate than rural ones via tradition.

Personally I would say everything has been a step back over both of the last lots of governments but not eevryone holds the same values as me. I would like to hold hope for the future but think I'll end up still remembering the governments of Banharn, Chuan and even the bumbling Chavalit as islands of freedom even if not that effective, and that is very sad. All of the freedoms that we discuss today and the 1997 constitution were widely, openly and freely discussed under these governments. People were open to others ideas and debates. People could differ in opinion and still work together. Sadly this spirit of openness, frankness, and spirit of democracy has disipated into a winner taskes all and screw you and I am always right mentality. That for a country is such a waste and certainly inhibits progress. For that TRT must take its share of blame as must the military and its allies. Each person will attribute blame differently but it has surely taken the two as the main protagonists.

Part of that surely is the T trials. Should it go beyond that? Yes for sure. Will it? Probably not. Even TRT guys beyond T are needed so they will face only wrist slaps or be let off. Anyone else? Not likely. Even if TRT were to come back with a thirst for vengeance it is likely few of the present lot would face trial. Even T himself may end up only wrist slapped and fined as political expediency becomes the order of the day after the next election. From T's stance the best policy would probably be to hope for a fairly strong Dem-Chart Thai government (unlikely though) and then do a deal. It doesnt look as dodgy as getting Samak to make the charges go away and the Dems are quite strange by Thai standards in that they will probably be quite happy to insist on real fair trials. By such a standard it will be hard to find enough to send T down and he is probably quite willing to be fined and wrist slapped a bit, and Banharn would love to be seen as the great healer. Is that right? I dont think so but realistically deals will be done at some stage. Open war cannot exist forever.

[Tony Clifton]

Marshbags (and earlier, Tony Clifton) have suggested that that the drug war was NOT popular among the general populace- that in fact, the gen populace only accepted it because they were terrified to question it. And my experience in talking about this with Thais at the time- and since, in fact, is very different . I was appalled by the indifference at best shown in private conversations with Thais- and outright support by most.

And I am confident that this support was not because they thought I was a TRT stooge.

But then too, I also know that were the police to surreptitiously get rid of all the suspected crack dealers in any Canadian city- the response from MUCH of the public =particulraly in neighborhoods most affected by crack- would be quiet approval. I expect no better from Thais in a similar situation- and experience bore that out.

You've got to be kidding!

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[Tony Clifton]

He is under fire-truck corruption investigation and in a couple of months he'll be legally prohibited from any political activities.

Samak has also recently received a suspended two year jail for defamation. I doubt he'll make it to the election.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[Jai Dee]

DSI sets up subcommittee investigating extra-judicial execution

The Department of Special Investigation (DSI) establishes an ad hoc subcommittee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of 2,500 people. It is required to close the case within ten months.

Deputy Director-General of DSI, Charnchao Chaiyanukit (ชาญเชาว์ ไชยยานุกิจ), discloses that the subcommittee will hold its first meeting on the extra-judicial execution case on August 29th at the department’s office. The meeting will focus on the prosecution of policy-makers in the Thaksin administration responsible for the execution.

The director-general says the subcommittee needs cooperation from people involved in the case. It will work in collaboration with the National Human Rights Commission.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 17 August 2007

[hammered]

He is under fire-truck corruption investigation and in a couple of months he'll be legally prohibited from any political activities.

Samak has also recently received a suspended two year jail for defamation. I doubt he'll make it to the election.

You could have apoint. He also doesnt look very well these days.

[ColPyat]

I'll end up still remembering the governments of Banharn, Chuan and even the bumbling Chavalit as islands of freedom even if not that effective, and that is very sad. All of the freedoms that we discuss today and the 1997 constitution were widely, openly and freely discussed under these governments. People were open to others ideas and debates. People could differ in opinion and still work together. Sadly this spirit of openness, frankness, and spirit of democracy has disipated into a winner taskes all and screw you and I am always right mentality.

The problem was that yes, there was far more freedom in those days, but for a large majority of Thais it was a time where they had hope and not much else, and especially after the financial crises even the last bit of hope was taken away from them.

I doubt though that the freedom was something that was intended (remember, please, even in those days you had regular draconian measures, just remember the Smile Radio issue), but that was a result of attention given more to constant power struggles between weak coalition governments, their partners and the opposition.

And after '97 the country slipped into a tremendous drug crises, because governments such as the Banharn government did not much more than changing the name of the amphetamines from "Ya Maa" (horse pill) into "Ya Baa" (crazy pill).

That does not mean that i agree with the methods of the drug war, but something had to be done.

[marshbags]

He is under fire-truck corruption investigation and in a couple of months he'll be legally prohibited from any political activities.

Samak has also recently received a suspended two year jail for defamation. I doubt he'll make it to the election.

You could have apoint. He also doesnt look very well these days.

Apologies for updating this post for you, if it,s deemed O.Topic

Breaking news The Nation

Ref.url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...newsid=30045392

Quote

Samak slips, falls, gets 10 stitches on eyebrow

Sing Buri - Former Bangkok governor Samak Sundaravej stumbled and fell while shooting a TV programme, breaking his left eyebrow.

He received ten stitches on the wound at the Sing Buri Hospital, the hospital said.

Samak went to Sing Buri to record a video tape for a TV programme at 7:30 am. He stumbled and fell face-down onto a marble chair.

The Nation

Unquote

As T.C rightly points out and Hammered highlights he looks like he isn,t fit to take on the proposed job so.......

Even if he get,s by the fire truck scandal his influence on anything related to the EJK,s investigations would appear to be zero.

New party, what new party, sheep in wolves clothing comes to mind ??????

If they do win the new election all the good work that,s ongoing would go off the radar once again, especially the EKJ investigations.

Censorship, Suppression, Thaksins influence, ect. ect. will all make sure of this.

No matter what banner they come under it will have TRT all over it, along with the old cronies running their self rewarding political objectives once again !!!! ????

They surely cannot be allowed to write the slate clean on the Human Rights issues

marshbags

Edited August 17, 2007 by marshbags

[marshbags]

I'll end up still remembering the governments of Banharn, Chuan and even the bumbling Chavalit as islands of freedom even if not that effective, and that is very sad. All of the freedoms that we discuss today and the 1997 constitution were widely, openly and freely discussed under these governments. People were open to others ideas and debates. People could differ in opinion and still work together. Sadly this spirit of openness, frankness, and spirit of democracy has disipated into a winner taskes all and screw you and I am always right mentality.

The problem was that yes, there was far more freedom in those days, but for a large majority of Thais it was a time where they had hope and not much else, and especially after the financial crises even the last bit of hope was taken away from them.

I doubt though that the freedom was something that was intended (remember, please, even in those days you had regular draconian measures, just remember the Smile Radio issue), but that was a result of attention given more to constant power struggles between weak coalition governments, their partners and the opposition.

And after '97 the country slipped into a tremendous drug crises, because governments such as the Banharn government did not much more than changing the name of the amphetamines from "Ya Maa" (horse pill) into "Ya Baa" (crazy pill).

That does not mean that i agree with the methods of the drug war, but something had to be done.

Your points are valid C.P. and as you always make a point of stating your support for ridding the country of drugs.

The problem with saying " but something had to be done " seemingly comes across as giving an O.K. to Thaksins method of alledgedly wiping it out and in turn using this to murder thousands of victims in an evil vendetta to protect vested interests among certain Puyai.

Many posters in this thread have already pointed out the correct and proven way to tackle this world wide problem and irradicate the causes that feed this vicous circle and consequent curse on society.

Murder is not one of them and i am confident you will agree with this.

IMHO of course

marshbags

[ColPyat]

They surely cannot be allowed to write the slate clean on the Human Rights issues

marshbags

Given contemporary Thai history, chances are that nothing will happen.

Did you never wonder why what happened in '76 and afterwards is not even taught about in Thai schools? And the perpetrators are still free, and often in powerful positions.

The boat people crises?

The task force 80 issue, and related incidents at the Cambodian border?

'92?

Anybody punished?

Why do you think that this will not happen with the drug war killings as well? Just because they have 'committees' and 'subcommittees' now?

[ColPyat]

Your points are valid C.P. and as you always make a point of stating your support for ridding the country of drugs.

The problem with saying " but something had to be done " seemingly comes across as giving an O.K. to Thaksins method of alledgedly wiping it out and in turn using this to murder thousands of victims in an evil vendetta to protect vested interests among certain Puyai.

Many posters in this thread have already pointed out the correct and proven way to tackle this world wide problem and irradicate the causes that feed this vicous circle and consequent curse on society.

Murder is not one of them and i am confident you will agree with this.

IMHO of course

marshbags

I have always made a point here in debates that i am for legalization of drugs, and an opponent of the drugwar. And i have never hidden that i myself use drugs (very very rarely nowadays though, getting older this is just not as much fun as it once was).

But addiction to drugs is horrible, especially on the scale that happened here in Thailand (and still happens, increasing again). There is a difference between educated and responsible use of drugs, and addiction.

And no, the murders were not acceptable, and are not acceptable as a solution for the drug problem.

The drug war here in Thailand was terribly mishandled. There was a mixture of well intentioned programs, naivety, criminal neglegiance, gruesome brutality. And even the well intentioned programs lacked proper implementation. The establishment of the blacklists were not just against any human right, but also hurried, established often by non professionals, such as Puyai Ban's.

Some aspects of the drug war i could support, such as that during the drug war use was decriminalized partially (mostly in theory, unfortunately). But at the same time pharmacies which sold needles for junkies were punished, leading to horrific scenes in which junkies in the slums searched in the rubbish for used needles. But opportunities for free methadone for junkies were increased.

Most dealers who were shot, should have not even been treated as dealers but as addicts, as they were the lowest level dealers. Mid ranked and top ranked dealers who should have been brought to court got advance warning, and mostly were able to leave the country or their areas of influence were they were known.

But the application of guilt is a complex issue, where even now we can't go much further here. And that is one of the main reasons we will hardly see an open investigation into the drug war killings.

Unfortunately.

[marshbags]

They surely cannot be allowed to write the slate clean on the Human Rights issues

marshbags

Given contemporary Thai history, chances are that nothing will happen.

Did you never wonder why what happened in '76 and afterwards is not even taught about in Thai schools? And the perpetrators are still free, and often in powerful positions.

The boat people crises?

The task force 80 issue, and related incidents at the Cambodian border?

'92?

Anybody punished?

Why do you think that this will not happen with the drug war killings as well? Just because they have 'committees' and 'subcommittees' now?

We have to think like this and the fact that it is being debated in the Thai press and society can only be a BIG step forward in the right direction.

The 21st century and attitudes derived from the modern approach of not sweeping these important issues under the carpet like in previous times.

( Just because some Puyai says so )

It will eventually bring accountability for the EKJ,s and all the other Human rights offences that have happened in recent living memory and can be investigated with the help of real evidence that has not been destroyed / wiped out as in previous situations, some of which you quoted, not forgetting many of the perpetrators will now be dead or incapable with some form of senility.

If future incidents are to be avoided everyone who is capable of voicing distaste, alarm and it being unacceptable ect. ect.

must keep it in the public eye via whatever methods of highlighting all such evil actions that are available, be they by committees and publication media ect. ect. or any other such methods.

Punishment should happen and we would hope it will, but if it stops any repeats in the future that in itself is a rewarding achievement, don,t you think ?

This along with adequate compensation for all the unfortunate families will at least give them the just recognition of the wrongdoing, along with hope for the future and without, one would sincerely hope, fear of intimidation or repeats of this indiscriminate murder ever repeating itself.

It does not mean we should be happy at this either by the way, but it is and will be achievable at the very least, for their sakes and their childrens way forward alone.

marshbags

Edited August 17, 2007 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

, but if it stops any repeats in the future that in itself is a rewarding achievement, don,t you think ?

marshbags

Unfortunately it won't stop that easily. The next such incident is right now in the process to be set up, and if conditions meet a certain instability and critical mass, we might get news in Thailand again of yet another round of extra-judicial killings.

[marshbags]

, but if it stops any repeats in the future that in itself is a rewarding achievement, don,t you think ?

marshbags

Unfortunately it won't stop that easily. The next such incident is right now in the process to be set up, and if conditions meet a certain instability and critical mass, we might get news in Thailand again of yet another round of extra-judicial killings.

God or Karma forbid it ever happening, not forgetting, societies important role in this.

marshbags

Edited August 17, 2007 by marshbags

[blaze]

Marshbags (and earlier, Tony Clifton) have suggested that that the drug war was NOT popular among the general populace- that in fact, the gen populace only accepted it because they were terrified to question it. And my experience in talking about this with Thais at the time- and since, in fact, is very different . I was appalled by the indifference at best shown in private conversations with Thais- and outright support by most.

And I am confident that this support was not because they thought I was a TRT stooge.

But then too, I also know that were the police to surreptitiously get rid of all the suspected crack dealers in any Canadian city- the response from MUCH of the public =particulraly in neighborhoods most affected by crack- would be quiet approval. I expect no better from Thais in a similar situation- and experience bore that out.

You've got to be kidding!

I don't know where you are from or what neighborhoods you have frequented- but buddy- I'm NOT kidding. Now they wouldn't go around publicly advocating extra judicial murders- but nor would MANY of them take to the streets to demand inquiries- of course many WOULD (me) but many would not- surely you have heard the old mantra the courts are too damned soft on those druggies- better to just take 'em and...(use your imagination here). In fact the response among many- and I stress many- not most and certainly not all- would be very similar to the Thai response at the time- the cops know who is dealing and the cops did the right thing.

Remember how easily the case was made for the invasion of Iraq- it's the same mentality. Too often on the part of the same people.

Edited August 17, 2007 by blaze

[sriracha john]

He is under fire-truck corruption investigation and in a couple of months he'll be legally prohibited from any political activities.

Samak has also recently received a suspended two year jail for defamation. I doubt he'll make it to the election.

The clumsy, decrepit, Gerald Ford-impersonating oaf also received ten sutures today......

Former BKK governor tumbles

Former Bangkok governor Samak Sundaravej had a minor fall on Friday morning which resulted in an eyebrow injury.

Samak was in the middle of recording a television programme fell over and knocked his head on a marble chair. The production team sent him to Sing Buri Hospital where he received ten stitches.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=120931

Edited August 17, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

<snip>

<snip>

<snip>

Canadians squabbling.....

Ice hockey season must be fast approaching...

[sriracha john]

"This concludes our light-hearted commercial break... we return you now to the extremely serious topic at hand"

[Siripon]

Samak fell on his way to the bathroom, suffering from a suddenly upset stomach.

Some said he had unintentionally consumed a bouncing cheque whilst amply full.

[Tony Clifton]

Marshbags (and earlier, Tony Clifton) have suggested that that the drug war was NOT popular among the general populace- that in fact, the gen populace only accepted it because they were terrified to question it. And my experience in talking about this with Thais at the time- and since, in fact, is very different . I was appalled by the indifference at best shown in private conversations with Thais- and outright support by most.

And I am confident that this support was not because they thought I was a TRT stooge.

But then too, I also know that were the police to surreptitiously get rid of all the suspected crack dealers in any Canadian city- the response from MUCH of the public =particulraly in neighborhoods most affected by crack- would be quiet approval. I expect no better from Thais in a similar situation- and experience bore that out.

You've got to be kidding!

I don't know where you are from or what neighborhoods you have frequented- but buddy- I'm NOT kidding. Now they wouldn't go around publicly advocating extra judicial murders- but nor would MANY of them take to the streets to demand inquiries- of course many WOULD (me) but many would not- surely you have heard the old mantra the courts are too damned soft on those druggies- better to just take 'em and...(use your imagination here). In fact the response among many- and I stress many- not most and certainly not all- would be very similar to the Thai response at the time- the cops know who is dealing and the cops did the right thing.

Remember how easily the case was made for the invasion of Iraq- it's the same mentality. Too often on the part of the same people.

Rubbish.

Canada's capital has a crack pipe hand-out program.

Many other cities are distributing clean needles. There are detox programs and help in every major city.

They are deeply involved in the drug trade but, after numerous raids over the years, I do not even remember a single Hells Angel or biker gang member getting shot by cops, all handcuffed and sent to jail. The Quebec chapters are now washing dirty hospital garment. Rival gangs take care of eliminating each other from time to time.

Unlike the circus seen here, a single shot fired by a policeman automatically triggers a whole process within the police force and an independent body scrutinizes the process.

No one would accept Canadian citizens getting shot without trial but an infinitesimal minority.

Unlike Thailand, there is no police fear factor involved over there unless you are a criminal.

If such ridiculous measures were ever proposed, police forces themselves would take to the streets. How can you even compare both countries.

Are you one of those people who thinks a single joint inevitably leads to heroin addiction?

[blaze]

Marshbags (and earlier, Tony Clifton) have suggested that that the drug war was NOT popular among the general populace- that in fact, the gen populace only accepted it because they were terrified to question it. And my experience in talking about this with Thais at the time- and since, in fact, is very different . I was appalled by the indifference at best shown in private conversations with Thais- and outright support by most.

And I am confident that this support was not because they thought I was a TRT stooge.

But then too, I also know that were the police to surreptitiously get rid of all the suspected crack dealers in any Canadian city- the response from MUCH of the public =particulraly in neighborhoods most affected by crack- would be quiet approval. I expect no better from Thais in a similar situation- and experience bore that out.

You've got to be kidding!

I don't know where you are from or what neighborhoods you have frequented- but buddy- I'm NOT kidding. Now they wouldn't go around publicly advocating extra judicial murders- but nor would MANY of them take to the streets to demand inquiries- of course many WOULD (me) but many would not- surely you have heard the old mantra the courts are too damned soft on those druggies- better to just take 'em and...(use your imagination here). In fact the response among many- and I stress many- not most and certainly not all- would be very similar to the Thai response at the time- the cops know who is dealing and the cops did the right thing.

Remember how easily the case was made for the invasion of Iraq- it's the same mentality. Too often on the part of the same people.

Rubbish.

Canada's capital has a crack pipe hand-out program.

Many other cities are distributing clean needles. There are detox programs and help in every major city.

They are deeply involved in the drug trade but, after numerous raids over the years, I do not even remember a single Hells Angel or biker gang member getting shot by cops, all handcuffed and sent to jail. The Quebec chapters are now washing dirty hospital garment. Rival gangs take care of eliminating each other from time to time.

Unlike the circus seen here, a single shot fired by a policeman automatically triggers a whole process within the police force and an independent body scrutinizes the process.

No one would accept Canadian citizens getting shot without trial but an infinitesimal minority.

Unlike Thailand, there is no police fear factor involved over there unless you are a criminal.

If such ridiculous measures were ever proposed, police forces themselves would take to the streets. How can you even compare both countries.

Are you one of those people who thinks a single joint inevitably leads to heroin addiction?

What you say is correct. When I said 'surreptitiously'- I meant 'surreptitiously'- done with an element of deniability in place. But it would still be murder and many- too many- Canadians would be only too glad to accept the police account of things. Fortunately, as you say, we have pretty good system ensuring police accountability in Canada. (And if you don't think that system is regarded as overly cautious, read some of the more right wing papers from the west).

I didn't say MOST Canadians would quietly accept the murder-by-cop of an alleged drug dealer- I said many- particularly in the neighborhoods most afflicted with crack. Don't confuse social policy with unanimous support for that policy. (Not many of those responsible for designing social policy live next door to a crack house) and if Canadian social policy respected even majority opinion, we would have the death penalty. (Unless the stats have changed in the last two decades).

In Thailand, as I recall at the time, very rarely was it reported that the cops simply murdered the alleged dealer. The cops usually claimed that it was either self defense or the victims were trying to escape or that the cops weren't even around- other dealers were. It was bullshit. You knew it. I knew it. Probably many Thais knew it- but it helped to salve the national concience.

The investigations of killings of HAs where police are involved- well I don't remember a single one that was instigated by a public outcry. Any more than I recall public outcry at the time of the drug wars in Thailand. (Aside from a group of admitted drug dealers publicly petitioning the king to stop the madness).

In the biker wars in Quebec (or Manitoba) what many people said- was let them kill each other and God can sort 'em out. And if a police happened to shoot one 'in self defence' not many were crying for an inquiry. That is a shameful attitude, I think. And frankly Tony, in the rare cases where a cop shot an HA, I really don't think that had the country not had a system of oversite in place, a large part of the population would have been demanding an inquiry into police conduct.

My point in all this is that if this attitude can be found in Canada- though on a much smaller scale (my "many" might be your 'infintisimal'- these are relative terms), it shouldn't be too surprising that it was common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process.

Edited August 17, 2007 by blaze

[jumnien]

"common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process. "

Yes, it's not common for military governments to spend a lot of time on awareness and education about civil rights and due process.

[hammered]

"common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process. "

Yes, it's not common for military governments to spend a lot of time on awareness and education about civil rights and due process.

True and that is what we expect from military governments. When, however an elected government deides to not only do the same as we expect from a military government but to also go a lot further in actaul human rights infringements when they in theory though obviously not in practice are meant to hold to democratic ideals things get potentially more worrying.

[ColPyat]

"common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process. "

Yes, it's not common for military governments to spend a lot of time on awareness and education about civil rights and due process.

True and that is what we expect from military governments. When, however an elected government deides to not only do the same as we expect from a military government but to also go a lot further in actaul human rights infringements when they in theory though obviously not in practice are meant to hold to democratic ideals things get potentially more worrying.

Ah, but don't forget, please - this military was willful collaborator in the execution of those human rights violations of the previous government. I haven't seen those generals being disgruntled about the kill orders, or staging a coup at the time those human rights violations have happened.

Security forces can refuse unethical orders.

And even more so - one of the perpetrators of one of the human rights violations - the person who has decided to storm Krue Se mosque against the orders of defense minister Chavalit is now special public relations advisor to the new ISOC.

The "investigations" into the drugwar now are at most lacklustre, if not even scandalously neglected. The Military officers responsible for the orders at Tak Bai have not been investigated any further, even though that would not be very difficult now as the military is in power.

I would wish that the Human Rights violations that happened during TRT rule would be seen in context, please, including the role of the military in it.

[hammered]

"common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process. "

Yes, it's not common for military governments to spend a lot of time on awareness and education about civil rights and due process.

True and that is what we expect from military governments. When, however an elected government deides to not only do the same as we expect from a military government but to also go a lot further in actaul human rights infringements when they in theory though obviously not in practice are meant to hold to democratic ideals things get potentially more worrying.

Ah, but don't forget, please - this military was willful collaborator in the execution of those human rights violations of the previous government. I haven't seen those generals being disgruntled about the kill orders, or staging a coup at the time those human rights violations have happened.

Security forces can refuse unethical orders.

And even more so - one of the perpetrators of one of the human rights violations - the person who has decided to storm Krue Se mosque against the orders of defense minister Chavalit is now special public relations advisor to the new ISOC.

The "investigations" into the drugwar now are at most lacklustre, if not even scandalously neglected. The Military officers responsible for the orders at Tak Bai have not been investigated any further, even though that would not be very difficult now as the military is in power.

I would wish that the Human Rights violations that happened during TRT rule would be seen in context, please, including the role of the military in it.

Whatever context one is to put them in the head of the government that they were carried out under ultimately has to take responsibility. There will be others down the line, but if we just take a look at any of the high profile death squad cases world wide it is always the head of government that ens up being the main accused. There are no excuses for Mr. Thaksin on this. There is no context that lessens his responsibility for it. As head of the government with complete control of executive and legislature he must answer for government policies. As he once put it. "Ministers are only my helpers, I make all the decisions." (not exactly are ringing endorsement of democracy but I digress)

As to whether he gets hauled up in front of a court for it. I doubt that. It is more likely he will once again end up running the country again. That would be a very sad day for human rights in Thailand, and even by the checkered history of Thai human rights would be setting a new low. That is unless Mr. Samak becomes the next PM.

[ColPyat]

Whatever context one is to put them in the head of the government that they were carried out under ultimately has to take responsibility. There will be others down the line, but if we just take a look at any of the high profile death squad cases world wide it is always the head of government that ens up being the main accused. There are no excuses for Mr. Thaksin on this. There is no context that lessens his responsibility for it. As head of the government with complete control of executive and legislature he must answer for government policies. As he once put it. "Ministers are only my helpers, I make all the decisions." (not exactly are ringing endorsement of democracy but I digress)

As to whether he gets hauled up in front of a court for it. I doubt that. It is more likely he will once again end up running the country again. That would be a very sad day for human rights in Thailand, and even by the checkered history of Thai human rights would be setting a new low. That is unless Mr. Samak becomes the next PM.

I would agree with your post if Thailand would work like other countries.

As you also never fail to point out (when it serves your argumentation ) - Thailand has a huge informal network of power at least equal in power and decision making abilities as the government and its head has. In a realistic assessment of the human rights violations this has to be taken into account.

If we don't do that, then we can all be happy that Thaksin gets all the blame, without changing one bit of the underlying system that made such human rights violation possible in the first place, and will so surly in the future as well.

Thailand has a sad record of Human Rights violations, many of them, often worse than the drug war, happened long before Thaksin played any role. Thaksin may have been under delusions that he was the sole dominating power in this country. But he wasn't, as the coup has shown rather clearly. He was permitted to be a figurehead as long as he was of use. During the worst Human Rights violations he was equally permitted, and not opposed by the powers that have removed him more than three years after the drug war. And those powers have collaborated during the drug war, have applauded in public the drug war on many occasions. And now after the overthrow of Thaksin - nothing but committees are formed regarding some of the Human Rights violations.

I prefer to have the enabling system changed, and not just blame a convenient target leaving the system alone. Solely blaming Thaksin is a futile exercise, smokes and mirrors. He has to be blamed, but as a willing participant of a system in a major role that has countless times enabled such brutalities, and which will continue to do so if not changed.

Edited August 18, 2007 by ColPyat

[marshbags]

"common in Thailand, a country with much less 'awareness' and 'eduaction' about cilil rights and due process. "

Yes, it's not common for military governments to spend a lot of time on awareness and education about civil rights and due process.

True and that is what we expect from military governments. When, however an elected government deides to not only do the same as we expect from a military government but to also go a lot further in actaul human rights infringements when they in theory though obviously not in practice are meant to hold to democratic ideals things get potentially more worrying.

Ah, but don't forget, please - this military was willful collaborator in the execution of those human rights violations of the previous government. I haven't seen those generals being disgruntled about the kill orders, or staging a coup at the time those human rights violations have happened.

Security forces can refuse unethical orders.

And even more so - one of the perpetrators of one of the human rights violations - the person who has decided to storm Krue Se mosque against the orders of defense minister Chavalit is now special public relations advisor to the new ISOC.

The "investigations" into the drugwar now are at most lacklustre, if not even scandalously neglected. The Military officers responsible for the orders at Tak Bai have not been investigated any further, even though that would not be very difficult now as the military is in power.

I would wish that the Human Rights violations that happened during TRT rule would be seen in context, please, including the role of the military in it.

To put this last sentence into context.

The link in any and all aspects relating to H.Rights Abuses ect. ect. being the exiled fugitive and ex.CEO Thaksin least anyone forgets...

The person who personally controlled, totally, the TRT, POLICE and the MILTARY roles in the above until he got too greedy and distructive, was out monoeuvre,d and unceremonial kicked out of his prestigous post as leader of the now defuncted TRT, and the government of Thailand.

Hence we now have the present developments relating to the topic of this thread.

Personally i think that Thailand was very fortunate in getting him out before his dictatorial skills could take the country into an abyss of suffering, and evil Human Rights Abuses of an unbelievable magnitude that would totally shade any such incidents of the past that are regulary used as references to compare with all previous offences.

IMHO as always

marshbags

[A_Traveller]

One thing, that presumably by repeating the opposite, will cease to be true(?), is that the majority of violations being investigated and reviewed during Thaksin's time in office were from the civilian forces, not the military. The police are squarely in the frame for the extra-judicial murders, and the disappearance of the lawyer K. Somchai, for example. Thaksin worked hard to reduce the military 'exposure' to the civilian population, even going so far as to withdrawing to barracks solders in the south and disbanding military operations, as well as intelligence gathering and replacing these with 'FoT's and police operations. It was clear during this time that as far as possible, though events overtook this plan, the underlying ethos was to reduce the 'weight' of the military's influence.

That is not to say there are not considerable issues with the actions of the military, especially in the south, during Thaksin's time, though the Mosque incident will, I believe, come to be seen more clearly. As has been noted the officer in charge apparently acted against the orders of the defence minister, but one should note that the DM was not the most senior civilian in the chain of command.

Regards

[ColPyat]

One thing, that presumably by repeating the opposite, will cease to be true(?), is that the majority of violations being investigated and reviewed during Thaksin's time in office were from the civilian forces, not the military. The police are squarely in the frame for the extra-judicial murders, and the disappearance of the lawyer K. Somchai, for example. Thaksin worked hard to reduce the military 'exposure' to the civilian population, even going so far as to withdrawing to barracks solders in the south and disbanding military operations, as well as intelligence gathering and replacing these with 'FoT's and police operations. It was clear during this time that as far as possible, though events overtook this plan, the underlying ethos was to reduce the 'weight' of the military's influence.

That is not to say there are not considerable issues with the actions of the military, especially in the south, during Thaksin's time, though the Mosque incident will, I believe, come to be seen more clearly. As has been noted the officer in charge apparently acted against the orders of the defence minister, but one should note that the DM was not the most senior civilian in the chain of command.

Regards

Neither was Thaksin the most senior civilian in the chain of command.

The majority of Human Rights violations investigated may have been by the civilian forces. But that does not mean that other forces may not have been involved heavily. In the border areas, and even in Bangkok, many Dor Chor Dor were heavily involved in the drug war (and we do know that their primary loyalty never was with Thaksin), and also other paramilitary forces were involved, such as Or Sor, etc.

So, for example, a few months before the killings Dor Chor Dor from Mae Sot were stationed in Klong Toey Slum, and stayed throughout.

All we talk here in the public debate about the killings by the police. What we rarely talk about are the death squads, who were they, who commanded them, and on whose orders. There is silence on them, because this is a very uncomfortable subject that goes beyond even the relatively simple issue of Human Rights violations.

There is so much about the drug war that the public never was made aware of. Even sort of legit actions never really made into the press, or anywhere, such as regular battles between Army/Dahan Praan and drug caravans. It is rather interesting talking with combat soldiers of region 3 about that subject.

There no chance that the drug war killings will be fully investigated, ever. This would tear the fabric of the country apart. All we will get is committees and sub-commitees, and after a while silence. It will go the way of Task Force 80, Kratingdaeng, Navapol, etc.

[Tony Clifton]

There may not be a full/complete and thourough investigation that will satisfy most of us but we will see much better results than what the Royal Thai police usually come up with when THEY are supposed to investigate events like the New Year bombings, Thaksin's bomb, Prem,s, Chamlongs, Khunying Pornthip's, (the forensics expert who herself had clashes with police brass) which always seem to conveniently end up in a dead end be it by doing someone a favour, complete incompetence or laziness.

The then manipulated investigations of the drug war killings will shock many more than what the new committee will deliver.

The craziness should never be allowed to ever happen again. Police officers behaving in such a way are worst than yaba dealers/users in my book.