Condo Managers being real estate agents, a conficlt of interest.

[Peterw42]

I have been doing the rounds looking at condos to buy. In my pursuit of the perfect condo, I am coming across the situation were condo managers are essentially running real estate empires, at the expense of being condo managers.

Anyone who owns a Condo, pays Condo fees. The Condo managers levy and collect fees, clean, maintain and repair common property. Hallways, gardens, pools, lifts etc. Enforce Bylaws, provide security etc. Good Condo management can make for a great condo complex, lifestyle and add value to your property. In a large complex (300-500 condos) the staff can be 20-30 people. Security guards, gardeners, cleaners, repairmen, office staff etc.

Lately, I have come across an alarming trend, were condo management spend most of there time and resources, selling and renting properties for commission.

At most large complexes, there is usually a notice board/book with properties for sale. find a property, call the owner etc. The condo managers are busy being condo managers.

More and more, I am coming across the situation were the condo office has a staff of 10 people, whos job is to show properties for rent or sale, negotiate prices, collect deposits, sales, and collect commission. Not much actual condo management going on. Im not talking about the developer still selling stock, these are older established complexes.

I really question this practice, firstly because of the priority of real estate sales over condo management. Secondly, its a lot of money involved with possibly not much accountability.

In a complex of 500 condos, say 10% are brought and sold in a year. 50 condos at say 2m each. Thats 100,000,000 baht in sales, 5% commission is 5,000,000 baht. Plus rental commission.

Thats enough money to pay all the condo fees for all the owners. something doesnt add up.

[KittenKong]

In my building the front office is simply not allowed to handle sales or rentals etc., though I suspect that they get involved with both unofficially if they sense there may be something in it for them.

My experience of condo managers, management companies and building staff here is that they are a bunch of lazy thieves who only have two interests: doing as little work as possible and lining their own pockets. What they certainly aren't interested in is looking after the building or doing anything approaching a conscientious job.

[Seizetheday]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought a turnover of 10% is a bit high.

I believe when the condo managers sell a condo the commission should be going into the condo bank account not their personal account. How it's policed I wouldn't know.

[Peterw42]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought a turnover of 10% is a bit high.

I believe when the condo managers sell a condo the commission should be going into the condo bank account not their personal account. How it's policed I wouldn't know.

Yes, how is it policed, if at all.

[user7643446845]

Suggest that you take your concerns to the committee.

[pod8460]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought a turnover of 10% is a bit high.

I believe when the condo managers sell a condo the commission should be going into the condo bank account not their personal account. How it's policed I wouldn't know.

If you believe the commissions go into the condo acc you must still believe in Santa. I'm not being rude but that statement just made me lol.

[Peterw42]

Suggest that you take your concerns to the committee.

And ask for my cut ?

I dont own, but the practice has made me rule out buying in a couple of complexes. Pay your condo fees so the office can run a real estate business and pocket the money.

[jaaaason]

I have owned property in a couple of countries....Mexico,China,U.S. (under their ownership rules). After moving to Thailand I have talked to several condo owners about their buildings and with what I have learned I would not buy a condo in Thailand. As stated by others it seems very few put any effort into maintaining the premises to any degree of competence.There are some good ones........but I have found those are in the higher dollar ranges.....meaning multiples of millions...

[ozyjon]

And you want to be a part of this.

[ozyjon]

I have owned property in a couple of countries....Mexico,China,U.S. (under their ownership rules). After moving to Thailand I have talked to several condo owners about their buildings and with what I have learned I would not buy a condo in Thailand. As stated by others it seems very few put any effort into maintaining the premises to any degree of competence.There are some good ones........but I have found those are in the higher dollar ranges.....meaning multiples of millions...

And regarding a previous post where some owners don't want short term rentals,,,

the owners stop paying fees and '' any effort into maintaining the premises to any degree ''

will result in '' NO effort into maintaining the premises to any degree ''

I agree with you as i owned property in various countries so now i think, inexperienced

stupid people who think they know everything get what they deserve.

[Jeffkp]

The management staff work for the owners. They should be supervised by the owners committee. If you have bad staff, blame the committee. As with any condo anywhere, if the owners are not paying attention, then you get these problems. My condo has a new committee and a new manager. We just fired the company doing the cleaning.They weren't doing a bad job, but no to the standard we wanted.

I can't speak for other buildings, but many of the units in my building are owned by absentee owners. They ask and expect the management staff to help rent/sell their units.We're happy for them to do that. They do a good job screening and maintaining standards.

Again, if you're not happy, raise hell with the committee.

Also, if owners don't pay their fees, cut off their water.

[smutcakes]

The Committee should ban it from happening. The source of the issue is the Co-owners trying to lease out their units and paying the staff on the management team to show people their unit. Many of the units also are run by external agents who pay the management staff and give them small parts of the commission if they call them or show them units from walk ins.

It is quite simple to stop, just get the Committee to ban it, but you will annoy some lazy Co-owners who like to utilise the management staff like that.

Its not just issues like this, many Co-owners expect the management to pay their bills, assist with their laundry, coordinate workers in their unit etc

I think you will find it would be an extremely rare case whereby anyone on a management team got a full commission for showing someone a unit.

[Peterw42]

The Committee should ban it from happening. The source of the issue is the Co-owners trying to lease out their units and paying the staff on the management team to show people their unit. Many of the units also are run by external agents who pay the management staff and give them small parts of the commission if they call them or show them units from walk ins.

It is quite simple to stop, just get the Committee to ban it, but you will annoy some lazy Co-owners who like to utilise the management staff like that.

Its not just issues like this, many Co-owners expect the management to pay their bills, assist with their laundry, coordinate workers in their unit etc

I think you will find it would be an extremely rare case whereby anyone on a management team got a full commission for showing someone a unit.

I think you would have trouble getting the committee to ban it, as they are likely getting a cut. As I said in my initial post, in some large complexes the commissions would be huge. And the money isnt going into the sinking fund.

I just walked away from a condo purchase as the commission to the condo management was 100,000.

[Peterw42]

The management staff work for the owners. They should be supervised by the owners committee. If you have bad staff, blame the committee. As with any condo anywhere, if the owners are not paying attention, then you get these problems. My condo has a new committee and a new manager. We just fired the company doing the cleaning.They weren't doing a bad job, but no to the standard we wanted.

I can't speak for other buildings, but many of the units in my building are owned by absentee owners. They ask and expect the management staff to help rent/sell their units.We're happy for them to do that. They do a good job screening and maintaining standards.

Again, if you're not happy, raise hell with the committee.

Also, if owners don't pay their fees, cut off their water.

If your condo managers are helping sell units, do you know if they are getting commissions ? Its not uncommon for 3-5% commission.

And the main point I was trying to make. The commissions dont go into the condo management bank account/sinking fund.

[gandalf12]

I'm only guessing but I would have thought a turnover of 10% is a bit high.

I believe when the condo managers sell a condo the commission should be going into the condo bank account not their personal account. How it's policed I wouldn't know.

If you believe the commissions go into the condo acc you must still believe in Santa. I'm not being rude but that statement just made me lol.

Santa is real I saw him on the TV series "The Librarians"

[DrDave]

... and to add insult to injury, the office space and possibly staff salaries of the manager who is running his own real estate business are in many cases being paid for by the unit owners via their monthly CAM fees.

[Peterw42]

... and to add insult to injury, the office space and possibly staff salaries of the manager who is running his own real estate business are in many cases being paid for by the unit owners via their monthly CAM fees.

Yes, as I am shopping around for a condo, thats what I am seeing.

[ggt]

The incredible opportunity for corruption in dealing with foreigners in Condo Management...is also readily available for real estate agents...it is a seamless blend of opportunity and corruption to combine the two money-making schemes...

[KittenKong]

The Committee should ban it from happening. The source of the issue is the Co-owners trying to lease out their units and paying the staff on the management team to show people their unit. Many of the units also are run by external agents who pay the management staff and give them small parts of the commission if they call them or show them units from walk ins.

It is quite simple to stop, just get the Committee to ban it, but you will annoy some lazy Co-owners who like to utilise the management staff like that.

In some buildings the committee members are in on the scams.

In some buildings the committee members are even bigger crooks than the management is.

All is not sweetness and light here, and co-owners who think that their condo management and committee are beyond reproach are probably just deluding themselves.

[user7643446845]

The Committee should ban it from happening. The source of the issue is the Co-owners trying to lease out their units and paying the staff on the management team to show people their unit. Many of the units also are run by external agents who pay the management staff and give them small parts of the commission if they call them or show them units from walk ins.

It is quite simple to stop, just get the Committee to ban it, but you will annoy some lazy Co-owners who like to utilise the management staff like that.

In some buildings the committee members are in on the scams.

In some buildings the committee members are even bigger crooks than the management is.

All is not sweetness and light here, and co-owners who think that their condo management and committee are beyond reproach are probably just deluding themselves.

Kittenkong -Just how many condos have you lived in ?

[KittenKong]

Kittenkong -Just how many condos have you lived in ?

What does that have to do with anything?

[kannot]

commission is usually 3% not 5% and can often involve even the maids at these buildings, heres some things I know condo managers do.

1 sell the phone numbers of all the owners there with rooms to ANY agent for a fair old price

2 Say everything has to go thru them or at least they get a cut of any agents sale

3 withold keys when asked by an owner to give them to xyz agent when they come round to show the room

4 Are in cohorts with the maid and secuirty team to steal customers from agents

I agree though and they should all be sacked for not doing there own job.............. as soon as they cant fill rooms they come crying to the agents to find a customer.

[wpcoe]

In a condo I owned, the manager contacted owners who were delinquent in their maintenance fees and offer to assist them by buying their unit herself, or face the threat of foreclosure to settle the owed amount. She would sign off on the Land Office documents to say that they property had no encumbrances (a lie, of course). She, of course, paid a well-below-market price to the owner and they were happy to just get rid of the property. Then she would turn around and sell the units at market value for a nice profit.

That building would be a case study of blatant and rampant corruption and illegal activity. e.g. In the many years I owned there, there was *never* any notice of an annual meeting. There were never any budgets or any other reports sent out or posted in the building. An owner was soliciting and organizing owners to band together to get the required votes to take over the committee and throw out the management company. He received a threat to harm his family, so he backed off. Absolutely a nightmare to deal with. The particular manager mentioned above was removed only after she physically assaulted an owner, BUT she continued to draw full salary for YEARS after she was "fired," AND the replacement manager was her brother.

[user7643446845]

Kittenkong -Just how many condos have you lived in ?

What does that have to do with anything?

Your statements can only be valid with first hand knowledge of life in several condos

Given that you have lived in say only 2 condos then I would say that you are talking nonsense

If ,on the other hand ,you have lived in say 10 condos then your commments are valid and are worthy of respect

So which is it?

[wpcoe]

Your statements can only be valid with first hand knowledge of life in several condos

Really? I've had many good conversations with friends who own units in other buildings to get an understanding of how things can/should be/are done by other condo management teams. Shame on me!

[Inquisitorial]

From our experience the best way is to nominate for the committee and get involved if this is not possible find out who is on the committee and talk to them about any concerns. Obviously you cant do this until you are an owner, but if you find a condo you do like, ask the questions about the management, ask for copy of last AGM minutes, financial reports etc (in our complex a summary of the finances are posted on the notice board) and the condition report if they have one so you can see how proactive they are on preventative maintenance etc. I would also ask about the sinking fund. With the AGM minutes our managers also supply report on occupancy showing those that are vacant, owner occupied and those rented - this may be useful when purchasing so that you can get a feel on the occupancy dynamics.

We are not currently on our committee as we are not living full time in Thailand at the moment but we do keep in contact with two of the English speaking members and meet with them when we are in town (we now have a good mix on our committee who in recent years have started to pro actively manage the managers (from observation if managers are left to their own devices they will do very little). Our Committee meet with the managers on a regular basis.

Agree that the staff can be lazy if allowed, just sit in the little office all day (most of the time on the internet)

I don't think it is a bad thing if the management staff show perspective tenants/purchasers around and maybe get paid some of the commission as long as it does not affect the day to day running of the complex. A complex seems to run better if people actually live there rather than all the condos just being left empty. Though I am not sure how you manage the fraud potential as mentioned in previous posts.

[Peterw42]

From our experience the best way is to nominate for the committee and get involved if this is not possible find out who is on the committee and talk to them about any concerns. Obviously you cant do this until you are an owner, but if you find a condo you do like, ask the questions about the management, ask for copy of last AGM minutes, financial reports etc (in our complex a summary of the finances are posted on the notice board) and the condition report if they have one so you can see how proactive they are on preventative maintenance etc. I would also ask about the sinking fund. With the AGM minutes our managers also supply report on occupancy showing those that are vacant, owner occupied and those rented - this may be useful when purchasing so that you can get a feel on the occupancy dynamics.

We are not currently on our committee as we are not living full time in Thailand at the moment but we do keep in contact with two of the English speaking members and meet with them when we are in town (we now have a good mix on our committee who in recent years have started to pro actively manage the managers (from observation if managers are left to their own devices they will do very little). Our Committee meet with the managers on a regular basis.

Agree that the staff can be lazy if allowed, just sit in the little office all day (most of the time on the internet)

I don't think it is a bad thing if the management staff show perspective tenants/purchasers around and maybe get paid some of the commission as long as it does not affect the day to day running of the complex. A complex seems to run better if people actually live there rather than all the condos just being left empty. Though I am not sure how you manage the fraud potential as mentioned in previous posts.

You mention that your condo managers give a report on occupancy. How would the condo managers know that information ? As an owner, i dont need to tell them if its empty, occupied, or rented out via an agent down the road.

[KittenKong]

Kittenkong -Just how many condos have you lived in ?

What does that have to do with anything?

Your statements can only be valid with first hand knowledge of life in several condos

Given that you have lived in say only 2 condos then I would say that you are talking nonsense

If ,on the other hand ,you have lived in say 10 condos then your commments are valid and are worthy of respect

So which is it?

Do I need to live on the moon to know that it isnt made of cheese? No, I dont.

Do I need to live in a condo building to have first-hand knowledge of its finances and operations? No, I dont. I have acted as proxy holder for several owners in buildings other than my own, and when I do a job I do it seriously and in depth. So I probably know more about the finances and operation of those buildings than do many of the people who actually own or live in them. I certainly know far more about the finances and operation of my own building than do most of the people who live in it or own in it, not least because many co-owners in my building dont live in the building at all.

All I need to know is that of all the buildings that I have ever had any contact with, all of them are corrupt to a greater or lesser extent. Now it may be that I'm just very unlucky and have found the only few corrupt buildings in Thailand, and that all other buildings are entirely honest, but given the many comments I have noted here and elsewhere that agree with me I'm inclined to think not.

[KittenKong]

You mention that your condo managers give a report on occupancy. How would the condo managers know that information ? As an owner, i dont need to tell them if its empty, occupied, or rented out via an agent down the road.

It's easy enough to know which units are unoccupied (no water usage), owner-occupied or occupied by some third party. One way is to knock on the door and ask. Another way is to examine the contact records held for co-owners. Those whose contact address is elsewhere can be assumed not to be resident, and any water usage in their unit would indicate some other person living there. Another way is to ask those who live in nearby units. I know which of the units near me are rented and which are not. Another way would simply be for security to ask for ID at the entrance, and to check this with the list of owners.

[Henryford]

My condo office is forbidden to take part in condo sales/rents. It is up to the Committee to ensure the office/management work on condo issues alone. If they don't in these condos it sounds like they need a new committee.