Stay where you have registered - or face 4,000 baht fine, warns Immigration

[Deepinthailand]

9 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

I think that it's a fair bet that not even 1 in a 100 people who own their own condo or house, or live with a Thai partner in his/her condo or house, will have bothered to submit a TM30. In fact I think it's a fair bet that until recently hardly any of them even knew that they should do so.

 

I didnt. Hence my interest in this thread.

I think those figures 1 in a 100 are a bit strong but yes I dare say you are right a % will not realize they have to register. I'm formation should be given out regarding 90 day registering where you live (full time) in fact a list of rules wherever people get visas from ie embassies / consulates abroad and immigration offices if you go for an extension of stay or merely extending visa

 Not hard a flyer given to all signed for at source if they don't read it then no excuses they/we were given it. 

[ericnoodeeka]

On 10/6/2016 at 6:49 AM, robblok said:

I would not do it.. but I would just risk the fine.. it would be too much work every-time. 

i agree, traveled all over thailand, my home in sakon, never reported nothing, never had a problem, i do have a yellow housebook so the sakon im told me i not need to bother telling them.

[Ace of Pop]

Imo are not bothered with Thai Visa type folks Why you bothered.?.Most of us all know a rule bender,convenience marriage etc That's their target no prob for us


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[MaiDong]

On 10/9/2016 at 1:24 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

 I can't see anything about Non-immigrant O visa holders needing to submit

Why would you when it is not your job to submit it?

Have you read the thread, as it's been clearly pointed out several times it's the owner/ managers responsibility?

 

I've read conflicting opinions on whose responsibility it is to submit it, but yes, I have read the thread.

 

Do you have any helpful info regarding my question? Foreign people, holding which type of visa, need to either submit, or have this form submitted for them by the house owner or business associate/employer?

[Maestro]

Removed a nonsensical post.

[Maestro]

On 08/10/2016 at 2:19 PM, MaiDong said:

Is this TM30 form only for extensions or for every foreign person in Thailand?

 

I've done a search online and I can't see anything about Non-immigrant O visa holders needing to submit, unless they're on extensions.

 

Will my address submission on my Arrival card suffice?

 

The form TM.30 is for the "house-master, possessor or owner" of a residence to notify the arrival of a foreigner, every foreigner, at the residence.

[Maestro]

9 hours ago, MaiDong said:

 

I've read conflicting opinions on whose responsibility it is to submit it, but yes, I have read the thread.

 

Do you have any helpful info regarding my question? Foreign people, holding which type of visa, need to either submit, or have this form submitted for them by the house owner or business associate/employer?

 

Section 38 of the Immigration Act.

[Maestro]

 

Quote

Stay where you have registered.

 

From the Immigration Act (highlighting in red is mine):

 

Quote

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the
following :
...
2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason
that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official
of the change in residence , within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.

 

Quote

...or face 4,000 baht fine:

 

From the Immigration Act:

 

Quote

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be
punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for
each day which passes until the law is complied with.

 

Quote

The fines are in accordance with regulations issued in 1979 and 1998.

 

1979 is the year when the Immigration Act was promulgated.

 

1998 presumably is the year when the list of summary fines that immigration is authorised to impose and collect without taking the foreigner to court was last updated in accordance with Section 84 of the Immigration Act. This list has probably been published somewhere, most likely in the Government Gazette, and if somebody can give me a link to it I shall be very grateful.

 

Quote

Section 84 : In all offenses under this Act, except the provisions of Section 62 Para.1 Section 63 , 64, 71
and 82 Para.2. The settlement Commission ,consisting of the Police Department’s Director General or
Representative, the Public Prosecution Department’s Director General or Representative, and the
Immigration Division’s Commander or Representative, as the, members shall have the authority to assign
duty of settlement to the Inquiry Official or the competent official by fixing a settlement rule or any
conditions as the Settlement Commission my deem proper.
When the offender has paid the fine as stipulate, the case shall be deemed settled under the
Criminal Procedure Code.

 

[tropo]

The amount they fine us is quite irrelevant IMO. What choice do we have other than to pay what they're asking. Can we bargain with them? Would it be worth the trouble?

[jaaaason]

What about those of us with an additionally location. Sometimes go to a small house in the hills for two days ,usually over the weekends ,and then come back ....So if they find me up there on the weekend I am screwed....?

[Maestro]

On 06/10/2016 at 5:11 AM, webfact said:

Chonburi immigration are also fining people offering accommodation to foreigners who fail to report guests to them within 24 hours.

 

From the Immigration Act (highlighting in red is mine):

 

Quote

 

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office
located in that area , the local police official for that area must be notified.
In case the house , dwelling place , or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of Para.1
is located within the Bangkok area , such notification must be reported to the competent official at the
Immigration Division.
Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with
regulations prescribed by the Director General.

...

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not
exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht
to 10,000 Baht.

 

 

[Maestro]

23 minutes ago, tropo said:

The amount they fine us is quite irrelevant IMO. What choice do we have other than to pay what they're asking. Can we bargain with them? Would it be worth the trouble?

 

No,  you cannot bargain with immigration over the fine. You can, however, refuse to pay the fine, in which case immigration has the option of taking the case to court where the judge will make a decision based on the legal provisions. Whether this is worth the trouble is for the person being fined to evaluate and act accordingly.

[toenail]

ok...ok...ok... After working/living in Thailand (legally) for 12 years observing how thugs, criminals, losers will choose Thailand to "hide in" it is so obvious the "good farangs" follow the rules and the "losers" of the  world that come here continue to do their own thing... And if they are wanted for wrong-doing back in their home country, these rejects are not going to be honest here in Thailand to do all the paper work and reporting. (Meanwhile the law abiding visitors do.)

 

One of the reasons why Bangkok, Pattaya, or Phuket are places for the world "losers" to use as a hide-out is due to the variety and large numbers of foreigners visiting these tourist cities.  These losers of society or wanted terrorists certainly would not be hanging around in some Thai village. -And, it use to be??? a bribe in this Thai society could protect your arse.

 

There are probably more "illegals" in New York city, I do not think the States requires this much paperwork ONCE you enter with some kind of visa.

(NOTE: I am sure some forum member can set me straight on the last sentence)

 

[tropo]

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

No,  you cannot bargain with immigration over the fine. You can, however, refuse to pay the fine, in which case immigration has the option of taking the case to court where the judge will make a decision based on the legal provisions. Whether this is worth the trouble is for the person being fined to evaluate and act accordingly.

And hope you can find a lawyer that can help you through a court case... and of course fork out many, many times the fine in lawyer's fees. What could happen if you try to embarrass (lose face) the Immigration department in court? They will find a way to kick you out of the country - I'd put money on it.

[Maestro]

You are talking about a foreigner who chooses to be sentenced by a court rather than pay the summary fine for contravention of the Immigration Act. I don't see how this would make immigration lose face.

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, jaaaason said:

What about those of us with an additionally location. Sometimes go to a small house in the hills for two days ,usually over the weekends ,and then come back ....So if they find me up there on the weekend I am screwed....?

 

Whether you stay in two different hotels or in two different private residences during your stay in Thailand, the letter of the law applies equally. Whether the immigration offices in the areas where you stay enforce the law equally in both situations is another question and is unpredictable.

[Jackin1960]

It's not hard to get around this problem leave Thailand to the Thais and holiday in Cambodia for a change. And if you are unfortunate enough to live in Thailand then move as I did with the whole family and have peace of mind, it's wonderful to wake up every day knowing I don't have to cow down to a load of wannabe's never knowing what silly new law for foreigners is going to be misinterpreted. I feel that Thailand is about to become very difficult soon. 

[Mattd]

The laws regarding the TM30 and TM28 are relatively simple, however, complying with them in some cases is not!

 

TM30 - Up to the householder or their representative to fill in and report to immigration within 24 hours of the 'alien' residing.

TM28 - The long term 'alien' should give this to immigration to register that this is their permanent address, it should tally up with a TM30 somewhere along the line, it is not intended for tourists, it is for the 'alien' that is staying in Thailand long term, either working, retired or for whatever reason. i.e. somebody on a non-immigrant visa, who is doing yearly extensions and 90 day reports etc.

 

The problems arise, as has been mentioned before, when somebody like me has a residence in one province and works in another Monday - Friday.

Which address do you report as your permanent one on the TM28......?? (in my case, the children live at the weekend address and I consider this to be my actual home)

in this case, then a TM30 should technically be submitted twice per week, one for the weekend address (who simply cannot comply with the 24 hour rule due to the weekend!!) and one for the residence for the work period.

In my case, the weekend one would be relatively easy, albeit a PITA if weekly.

The weekday one would rely on my landlord doing this every week, this is a Thai guy that works all over the world and isn't here often, plus his wife has a young family to look after, so not exactly practical to actually do in reality.

 

Like kittenKong, I've been living in Thailand for close to 27 years and didn't actually realise this was all necessary until recently, it has all come in to the forefront due to the Bangkok bombing, since which there are several cases of people being fined, not being able to get residency letters from immigration etc. certainly not isolated cases now.

 

Like most things in life, to achieve compliance it is far better to make the compliance as easy as possible, I for one would much prefer to do things by the book, however, given the number of reports that would have to be done over the course of one year and the number of people it inconveniences, (not just me, if it was only me, then it wouldn't be so bad), then compliance is really not as easy as it might be in other cases, I'm certainly not the only one in this situation, hundreds, if not thousands are.

 

Everybody has to put an address on the TM.6 upon arrival in to Thailand, I'm quite sure that immigration do not have a system that can physically check that address against a TM30 report that, in theory, should be submitted within 24 hours of the arrival in to Thailand, it would be an administrative nightmare!

Long termers must also put an address on a TM47 when reporting for the 90 days.

So immigration basically get a long term person's address several times by several means.....

Tourists may well change hotels or accommodation several times in a holiday, yes, the hotel may be complying by reporting, but imagine trying to track it all.

Is any of this information actually being put in to a centralised immigration database???

 

Regarding the hotels reporting, I'm not entirely convinced that they all do, I've have stayed in several nice, big chain hotels in Bangkok and have only ever checked in using my Thai drivers license, not only does that not give them the TM6 number (a part of the reporting requirement) up until August last year, it had the wrong passport number on it for about 3 years!!!!

 

[Golden Triangle]

On 13/10/2016 at 9:09 AM, Mattd said:

The laws regarding the TM30 and TM28 are relatively simple, however, complying with them in some cases is not!

 

TM30 - Up to the householder or their representative to fill in and report to immigration within 24 hours of the 'alien' residing.

TM28 - The long term 'alien' should give this to immigration to register that this is their permanent address, it should tally up with a TM30 somewhere along the line, it is not intended for tourists, it is for the 'alien' that is staying in Thailand long term, either working, retired or for whatever reason. i.e. somebody on a non-immigrant visa, who is doing yearly extensions and 90 day reports etc.

 

The problems arise, as has been mentioned before, when somebody like me has a residence in one province and works in another Monday - Friday.

Which address do you report as your permanent one on the TM28......?? (in my case, the children live at the weekend address and I consider this to be my actual home)

in this case, then a TM30 should technically be submitted twice per week, one for the weekend address (who simply cannot comply with the 24 hour rule due to the weekend!!) and one for the residence for the work period.

In my case, the weekend one would be relatively easy, albeit a PITA if weekly.

The weekday one would rely on my landlord doing this every week, this is a Thai guy that works all over the world and isn't here often, plus his wife has a young family to look after, so not exactly practical to actually do in reality.

 

Like kittenKong, I've been living in Thailand for close to 27 years and didn't actually realise this was all necessary until recently, it has all come in to the forefront due to the Bangkok bombing, since which there are several cases of people being fined, not being able to get residency letters from immigration etc. certainly not isolated cases now.

 

Like most things in life, to achieve compliance it is far better to make the compliance as easy as possible, I for one would much prefer to do things by the book, however, given the number of reports that would have to be done over the course of one year and the number of people it inconveniences, (not just me, if it was only me, then it wouldn't be so bad), then compliance is really not as easy as it might be in other cases, I'm certainly not the only one in this situation, hundreds, if not thousands are.

 

Everybody has to put an address on the TM.6 upon arrival in to Thailand, I'm quite sure that immigration do not have a system that can physically check that address against a TM30 report that, in theory, should be submitted within 24 hours of the arrival in to Thailand, it would be an administrative nightmare!

Long termers must also put an address on a TM47 when reporting for the 90 days.

So immigration basically get a long term person's address several times by several means.....

Tourists may well change hotels or accommodation several times in a holiday, yes, the hotel may be complying by reporting, but imagine trying to track it all.

Is any of this information actually being put in to a centralised immigration database???

 

Regarding the hotels reporting, I'm not entirely convinced that they all do, I've have stayed in several nice, big chain hotels in Bangkok and have only ever checked in using my Thai drivers license, not only does that not give them the TM6 number (a part of the reporting requirement) up until August last year, it had the wrong passport number on it for about 3 years!!!!

 

 

In a perfect world the authorities would allow you to register 2 addresses, your weekday work details and your permanent weekend address, unfortunately the (Thai) world is less than perfect, have you considered trying to discuss this with immigration to see if they can suggest a solution ?

[Mattd]

12 hours ago, Golden Triangle said:

 

In a perfect world the authorities would allow you to register 2 addresses, your weekday work details and your permanent weekend address, unfortunately the (Thai) world is less than perfect, have you considered trying to discuss this with immigration to see if they can suggest a solution ?

 

Actually I am going to need to go to Jomtien Immigration in the next few days and thinking of doing just that, the sensible solution would be as you suggest,  let's see!

[Don Mega]

Sorry i it has been asked already but my registered address is the one I put on my 90 day reporting form ?

[gmac]

23 minutes ago, Mattd said:

 

Actually I am going to need to go to Jomtien Immigration in the next few days and thinking of doing just that, the sensible solution would be as you suggest,  let's see!

I have a very similar situation and would love to hear what immigration recommend.  What we really need is the ability to record 2 addresses and do any required notifications by e-mail.

[jamie2009]

I went to Jomtien yesterday to change my address, moved to new rented house on the 13th of November, they wanted to fine me 4000 baht as they I think said I didn't notify them of a previous address, I have never changed address before and my previous owner had notified Immigration when I moved there.

i spent 2 very frustrating hours there, they said either the owner pays 1600 baht or me 4000 baht.

i couldn't get in touch with owner and after feeling very frustrated and stressed I volunteered to pay the 4000 baht. I withdrew the money from the ATM outside went back upstairs, they had a change of heart, stapled the tear off strip on the TM28 in my Passport, you not pay money you have bad owner.

i have now managed to contact the owner and told her she has to go to Immigration, said they could fine you 1600 baht for not reporting me being in your property within 24 hours.

[zakk9]

On 13/10/2016 at 3:09 PM, Mattd said:

The laws regarding the TM30 and TM28 are relatively simple, however, complying with them in some cases is not!

 

TM30 - Up to the householder or their representative to fill in and report to immigration within 24 hours of the 'alien' residing.

TM28 - The long term 'alien' should give this to immigration to register that this is their permanent address, it should tally up with a TM30 somewhere along the line, it is not intended for tourists, it is for the 'alien' that is staying in Thailand long term, either working, retired or for whatever reason. i.e. somebody on a non-immigrant visa, who is doing yearly extensions and 90 day reports etc.

 

The problems arise, as has been mentioned before, when somebody like me has a residence in one province and works in another Monday - Friday.

Which address do you report as your permanent one on the TM28......?? (in my case, the children live at the weekend address and I consider this to be my actual home)

in this case, then a TM30 should technically be submitted twice per week, one for the weekend address (who simply cannot comply with the 24 hour rule due to the weekend!!) and one for the residence for the work period.

In my case, the weekend one would be relatively easy, albeit a PITA if weekly.

The weekday one would rely on my landlord doing this every week, this is a Thai guy that works all over the world and isn't here often, plus his wife has a young family to look after, so not exactly practical to actually do in reality.

 

Like kittenKong, I've been living in Thailand for close to 27 years and didn't actually realise this was all necessary until recently, it has all come in to the forefront due to the Bangkok bombing, since which there are several cases of people being fined, not being able to get residency letters from immigration etc. certainly not isolated cases now.

 

Like most things in life, to achieve compliance it is far better to make the compliance as easy as possible, I for one would much prefer to do things by the book, however, given the number of reports that would have to be done over the course of one year and the number of people it inconveniences, (not just me, if it was only me, then it wouldn't be so bad), then compliance is really not as easy as it might be in other cases, I'm certainly not the only one in this situation, hundreds, if not thousands are.

 

Everybody has to put an address on the TM.6 upon arrival in to Thailand, I'm quite sure that immigration do not have a system that can physically check that address against a TM30 report that, in theory, should be submitted within 24 hours of the arrival in to Thailand, it would be an administrative nightmare!

Long termers must also put an address on a TM47 when reporting for the 90 days.

So immigration basically get a long term person's address several times by several means.....

Tourists may well change hotels or accommodation several times in a holiday, yes, the hotel may be complying by reporting, but imagine trying to track it all.

Is any of this information actually being put in to a centralised immigration database???

 

Regarding the hotels reporting, I'm not entirely convinced that they all do, I've have stayed in several nice, big chain hotels in Bangkok and have only ever checked in using my Thai drivers license, not only does that not give them the TM6 number (a part of the reporting requirement) up until August last year, it had the wrong passport number on it for about 3 years!!!!

 

Well written, and my situation as well. In addition, I travel abroad once or twice per month on business, often returning late Friday night. In reality, it isn't possible to live by the regulations, at least not for me, and even trying would represent a nightmare for the owners of my two homes.

[Deepinthailand]

Why not just go to your immigration office and ask. all this about I go here there and everywhere and when I come home I have to go to immigration or get house owner to give a tm 30. 

I was on a retirement extension moved to address now residing filed in tm 28 Mrs filled in Tm30 went to immigration handed both in and associated docs some years ago now. Changed to Non o based on marriage visa. first time back into Thailand after getting Non o went armed with TM28/wife/Tm30 to Immigration handed in said documents was told no need you haven't moved don't need to tell us unless you move. Told mrs no need to give Tm30 every time he comes back into Thailand he is registered at that address as long as he puts that on the TM 6 no problems.

[jamie2009]

14 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

Why not just go to your immigration office and ask. all this about I go here there and everywhere and when I come home I have to go to immigration or get house owner to give a tm 30. 

I was on a retirement extension moved to address now residing filed in tm 28 Mrs filled in Tm30 went to immigration handed both in and associated docs some years ago now. Changed to Non o based on marriage visa. first time back into Thailand after getting Non o went armed with TM28/wife/Tm30 to Immigration handed in said documents was told no need you haven't moved don't need to tell us unless you move. Told mrs no need to give Tm30 every time he comes back into Thailand he is registered at that address as long as he puts that on the TM 6 no problems.

The owner only has this property and when the previous tenant moved in a few years ago no one was bothered about TM 28/30 stuff, she was unaware about the forms, yes I had a contract. I had too tell her about the TM30 and she is a.Thai.

TBH if I had never gone to tell them how would they find out, obviously Arrival/Departure Cards details aren't registered and I do a Re-Entry Permits, Visa even done a Residence Permit etc all with my address, are they ever Inputted on the system or is there a system, I wasn't even on the system ? My previous owner had registered me so I should have been.

[Deepinthailand]

ÖI am led to belive unless someone ie Joe knows diffrent all tm 6 arrival cards are imputed into the system indeed there was a story a few weeks ago where the system went down and thousands of tm6 forms were not put into system at the time but the backlog was cleared

[SaintLouisBlues]

On 10/13/2016 at 6:23 PM, Jackin1960 said:

... it's wonderful to wake up every day knowing I don't have to cow down 

Eminently reasonable

[jamie2009]

Further to my earlier posts, I can't get my head round why they wanted to fine me. I had actually arrived back in Thailand on the  30th of October after 3 weeks in the U.K. and moved house on the 13th of November. 

I had lived in properties all owned by the same owner for 2 years, I return to the UK every 3 months, a Tourist coming and going every 3 months staying in a different location wouldn't have too ?

[MaxiMaxi]

4 hours ago, jamie2009 said:

Furither to mim isarlier posts, I can't get my head round why they wanted to fine ite. I had actually arrived back in Thailand on the  30th of October after 3 weeks in the U.K. and moved house on the 13th of November. 

I had lived in properties all owned by the same owner for 2 years, I return to the UK every 3 months, a Tourist coming and going every 3 months staying in a different location wouldn't have too ?

Depends on your visa and/or stay permit you have and where you stay, hotel/guesthouse room or rented private unit.

In 1st case the reception will notify to Immigration automaticaly

In 2nd case the owner should do It and/or you.

When I moved from a hotel to condo I asked my owner to do but he said no, no need but I went myself and filed It at Immigration to be In regular status. If the owner will be fined Is his problem. But the risk as usual can be:

Farang fined cause have big money.....

Thai people no fine cause Is one of them....even If has  big big money having at least 50 condorooms......, -:(