May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

True democracy only works if the electorate are equally well informed and educated. They're not.

 

 

Is this code for " I like an electorate who read the broad sheets and have got up to or beyond 3 A levels and don't eat tripe or have a full English for breakfast lunch and dinner or watch Corrie and EastEnders"

 

Several of us have certain posters on 'ignore' because of their uninformed, out-of-touch arrogance and condescension.

[aright]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to say parliament is sovereign. They are not bound by a referendum no matter you think that is unfair.

I agree they are not legally bound to it but they are there to serve the will of their constituents and 87% of voters at the last election voted for out parties. What is the point in having a manifesto otherwise, and what is the point in having  an expensive referendum if you are not bound in conscience to accept the will of the people. Cameron assured us he would abide by the verdict. 

[aright]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Exactly. The 2015 referendum was about "the rules of the game change" , as you called it. Remainers harp on about the electorate being misinformed. The electorate was kept hopelessly misinformed in 1975. By 2016, enough of the electorate had wised up.

It wasn't reflected in the 2017 election was it.

By the way if you want to ignore my posts that's fine with me. I won't take offence

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to say parliament is sovereign. They are not bound by a referendum no matter you think that is unfair.

I agree they are not legally bound to it but they are there to serve the will of their constituents and 87% of voters at the last election voted for out parties. What is the point in having a manifesto otherwise, and what is the point in having  an expensive referendum if you are not bound in conscience to accept the will of the people. Cameron assured us he would abide by the verdict. 

 

Talk about going over old ground, it's bloody Groundhog Day. Remainers are just relentless with their intellectual dishonesty. "The end justifies the means" must be the standard line message for them.

[aright]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Talk about going over old ground, it's bloody Groundhog Day. Remainers are just relentless with their intellectual dishonesty. "The end justifies the means" must be the standard line message for them.

Good point. They always want to tell us that leaving the EU will be a disaster for us but seldom talk about the Valhalla that is the EU. It would be interesting to know where they think the EU will be 20 years from now. In my opinion it will implode because of the loss of the UK's contribution and the mill stones Greece, Italy, Portugal and to a lesser extent Spain. It will move to greater federalisation because that's the only way it can survive and will stubbornly stick to a single currency across the zone which has crippled the Southern economies and led to civil unrest in some countries. If it survives I eventually see it as  a United States with a single policy making body which will overrule the individual governments.

I'm sure remainers wouldn't agree with my view but it would be nice to know what they think their Eden will be like 20 years from now.    Let us know please. 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, aright said:

I think that perfectly defines your view of democracy.

Democracy is not an opinion poll ... and that's the problem with referenda.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, aright said:

At the last general election, not so long ago, 87% of the people who voted, voted for political parties whose manifesto endorsed leaving the EU. Only 7% voted for the one party (Liberal Democrats ) who promised another referendum if they got into power. You are living in La La land.

 

Their belief (MPs) is that you have to respect the referendum, no matter the cost ... until of course public opinion changes, and then, true to form, they will do an about turn ... Labour now advocating a transition involving remaining in the custom union and single market ... and now the idea appears of the UK controlling immigration whilst remaining ... a week really is a long time in politics, ask Theresa May ... and what is done can be undone. And that's what worries die-hard Brexiteers ... that their "will of the people" will be displaced by a new "will of the people" that they happen to dislike.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Democracy is not an opinion poll ... and that's the problem with referenda.

It's more than an opinion poll if the Prime Minister of the day said Parliament will abide by the decision which in fairness he did. How do you think the electorate would respond if the government ignored their will.

[aright]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Their belief (MPs) is that you have to respect the referendum, no matter the cost ... until of course public opinion changes, and then, true to form, they will do an about turn ... Labour now advocating a transition involving remaining in the custom union and single market ... and now the idea appears of the UK controlling immigration whilst remaining ... a week really is a long time in politics, ask Theresa May ... and what is done can be undone. And that's what worries die-hard Brexiteers ... that their "will of the people" will be displaced by a new "will of the people" that they happen to dislike.

This sounds like the Maastricht treaty all over again. Keep them voting until they give you the answer you want.

[Grouse]

54 minutes ago, aright said:

Is this code for " I like an electorate who read the broad sheets and have got up to or beyond 3 A levels and don't eat tripe or have a full English for breakfast lunch and dinner or watch Corrie and EastEnders"

No. Not at all.

 

I get the humour but my point is serious and the issue dates back to the ancient Greeks.

 

We choose wise men to take decisions for us for obvious reasons 

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Several of us have certain posters on 'ignore' because of their uninformed, out-of-touch arrogance and condescension.

Which is why your little group remain uniformed and out of touch! ?

[aright]

Just now, Grouse said:

No. Not at all.

 

I get the humour but my point is serious and the issue dates back to the ancient Greeks.

 

We choose wise men to take decisions for us for obvious reasons 

Speak for yourself my wife makes all my decisions.

I would only add seriously  "One persons wise man can be another mans fool"  Boris Johnson....first cab off the rank.   

[aright]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Which is why your little group remain uniformed and out of touch! ?

If they are giving out uniforms where do I sign up?

[aright]

Brexit for some has been a great success

 

[sandyf]

You have to look on the bright side, think of the job creation widening the motorways. The Europeans can go in another direction.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-union-businesses-billion-four-eu-cost-latest-a7939356.html

 

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, aright said:

allowed the EU to make and give us 12500 regulations without Parliamentary scrutiny.

You obviously believe that EU legislation was ratified by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats of which the UK had no part.

[pitrevie]

4 hours ago, aright said:

It's more than an opinion poll if the Prime Minister of the day said Parliament will abide by the decision which in fairness he did. How do you think the electorate would respond if the government ignored their will.

It wasn't until 2015 that support for the death penalty dropped below 50%. It was the very point that Margaret Thatcher made when stating her opposition to referendums. If we had held a referendum on the death penalty then it would not have been abolished but Parliament took the lead and the death penalty was abolished. Its why we have a representative democracy we send MPs to Parliament to use their judgement.

Nowhere is this better explained than in Edmund Burke, Speech to the Electors of Bristol

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Brexit for some has been a great success

 

Quite, but it would be the brexiteers worst nightmare to be part of a similarly successful union.

[rockingrobin]

14 hours ago, aright said:

They are not Henry VIII bills they are powers which allow the Government to make technical amendments to legislation.

It beggars belief that many leavers (insults aren't necessary) and many MP's especially in the Labour Party allowed the EU to make and give us 12500 regulations without Parliamentary scrutiny. and without a descenting  murmur. For the last 40 years the executive have been using the same powers to process EU directives into UK law.

Sauce, goose, gander; pot, kettle, black; utter hypocrisy......all come to mind   

Are you forgetting the European Scrutiny Committee, who have the power to withold from clearance and  forward any proposals to parliament for debate

[AlexRich]

9 hours ago, aright said:

It's more than an opinion poll if the Prime Minister of the day said Parliament will abide by the decision which in fairness he did. How do you think the electorate would respond if the government ignored their will.

What if their "will" changed once the real facts are on the table? We see this time and time again in politics. 

[AlexRich]

9 hours ago, aright said:

This sounds like the Maastricht treaty all over again. Keep them voting until they give you the answer you want.

If what is on offer is more palatable, why would someone doggedly stick to a decision? If immigration controls are offered up in some fudge, for example, that might stop Brexit in its tracks.

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to say parliament is sovereign. They are not bound by a referendum no matter you think that is unfair.

Wrong in the case! The Tory election promise was not to hold an advisory referendum. The British people were given a constitutionally binding promise to the effect that they would be given the deciding say in a referendum, in which the majority would prevail, with no minimum thresholds set for the majority vote to be binding. 

 

The European Union Referendum Act 2015 authorized holding the referendum and specified that the question would be: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”  By this act, parliament consented to allow this important decision to be made by the people (direct electoral sovereignty). 

 

The referendum result mandates parliament to act upon the wishes of the majority. 

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, aright said:

Good point. They always want to tell us that leaving the EU will be a disaster for us but seldom talk about the Valhalla that is the EU. It would be interesting to know where they think the EU will be 20 years from now. In my opinion it will implode because of the loss of the UK's contribution and the mill stones Greece, Italy, Portugal and to a lesser extent Spain. It will move to greater federalisation because that's the only way it can survive and will stubbornly stick to a single currency across the zone which has crippled the Southern economies and led to civil unrest in some countries. If it survives I eventually see it as  a United States with a single policy making body which will overrule the individual governments.

I'm sure remainers wouldn't agree with my view but it would be nice to know what they think their Eden will be like 20 years from now.    Let us know please. 

I agree ... the EU as it is is heading for doo doo land!

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

I do blame Cameron for several related issues.

 

I do not blame the electorate.

 

The point of the referendum was to measure public opinion. Only.

Absolutely not!

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, aright said:

It wasn't reflected in the 2017 election was it.

By the way if you want to ignore my posts that's fine with me. I won't take offence

The Tories fouled up the 2017 election more with domestic social care and welfare policy scares than anything to do with the EU. Corbyn just told enough lies to pull in enough of the vote to get close, then started backtracking the next day, of course!  

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

You obviously believe that EU legislation was ratified by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats of which the UK had no part.

Not no part. No choice!

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

What if their "will" changed once the real facts are on the table? We see this time and time again in politics. 

What if 

            What if

                         What if?

[Orac]

The Tories fouled up the 2017 election more with domestic social care and welfare policy scares than anything to do with the EU. Corbyn just told enough lies to pull in enough of the vote to get close, then started backtracking the next day, of course!  

They fouled up the election through a combination of poor planning, poor execution and ignoring the advice of their most senior election strategist. Since the same people responsible for making these decisions are still in place it is hardly an inspiring situation given the importance of getting a good deal with the EU.


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[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

They fouled up the election through a combination of poor planning, poor execution and ignoring the advice of their most senior election strategist. Since the same people responsible for making these decisions are still in place it is hardly an inspiring situation given the importance of getting a good deal with the EU.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

I see Brexiters are already making their excuses for the 2017 election campaign. The central message of the 2017 election campaign and the reason the PM stated that she had to go to the country was to obtain a big majority to give her the authority to negotiate Brexit. She failed miserably and no amount of excuses from Brexiters about social and welfare policies can negate that fact.

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, pitrevie said:

I see Brexiters are already making their excuses for the 2017 election campaign. The central message of the 2017 election campaign and the reason the PM stated that she had to go to the country was to obtain a big majority to give her the authority to negotiate Brexit. She failed miserably and no amount of excuses from Brexiters about social and welfare policies can negate that fact.

You are wrong as usual. The Tories were about 20% clear until they issued their suicidal manifesto - that is fact!