May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[pitrevie]

16 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

you need to expand on this

As an example are you saying that a driving licence doesnt control who is entitled to drive a vehicle

This is one of the most bizarre argument I have ever had, the UK like all members of the EU has to apply for an export licence for conventional arms but somehow this does not imply control.

 

You will probably get the answer a driving licence is not an export licence.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Explained several times but you only want to listen to the economic arguments, Grouse.

Are you saying that so-called risks can be called tangible? 

Well we can get into semantics if you wish

 

I consider the risks to living standards to be tangible

 

I consider the so called benefits to be intangible:

 

1) sovereignty - Can I spend that?

 

2) control of our laws (we do anyway, but let's run with that) what laws exactly have been foisted on us to our financial disadvantage or the have harmed our well being?

 

3) Control of our borders: that was a home made problem; we could have restricted immigration within EU strictures. Anyway, immigration has slowed dramatically - people don't want to come here.

 

4) So we can be Britannia Rules the Waves? Really?

 

So what are the huge TANGIBLE benefits?

[aright]

37 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Dyson's success came about from a remark he made to a question put to him by Lord Howe in 1995 , who used is influence to put Dyson in touch with Comet

Did Comet teach him to be a good manufacturing engineer.

[rockingrobin]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

No a driving, dog, or TV  licence is not an export licence

The French sold Mistral ships to Russia amidst  objections from the other EU partners. The ships however were never delivered not because of EU objections but because of what Russia did in the Crimea. The export licence in part is needed for transparency. 

A licence is a permit to allow an activity to take place, or to use , own something

I am still not seeing how the above helps you in the claim that a licence is not a form of controll

[rockingrobin]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Did Comet teach him to be a good manufacturing engineer.

No, but he could not make a success of it in the UK

[aright]

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The mittelstand is a key factor in this as is the education system and management systems that involve unions

Education system?

In the world university rankings Germany's best university  is ranked at number 60. University of Munich

The UK has four University's  in the top 10. Oxford , Cambridge. University College London and Imperial College London.

The UK has 10 Universities with a higher rank than Munich

Makes a bit of  nonsense out of your education remark.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2016

 

I'm off. Catch you later

[aright]

10 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

A licence is a permit to allow an activity to take place, or to use , own something

I am still not seeing how the above helps you in the claim that a licence is not a form of controll

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

[rockingrobin]

18 minutes ago, aright said:

I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.

Therefore , I do not need a licence to export any weapons ?, it would be perfectly lawful to do so

 

[aright]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Why not throw in some reality as well. The EU has no control over who we sell arms to now or post Brexit.

 

16 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Therefore , I do not need a licence to export any weapons ?, it would be perfectly lawful to do so

 

The original  discussion was as a result of my contention that the EU does not control who we sell arms to now. See above

Pitrevie disagreed and said they do have control over our sales.

 

To answer your question yes you do need a licence to export weapons but it's a British licence not an EU licence so Britain is in control of its arms exports not the EU. I'm sure that either as a courtesy or maybe by law the EU would be informed  about arms movements 

As evidence when you want to export your shooter you need to apply for a UK licence not an EU

From gov.uk

Licences are needed for import and export of military and paramilitary goods, dual-use and technology, artworks, plants and animals, medicines and chemicals - be aware of your responsibilities and who the relevant UK licensing authorities are.

 

[rockingrobin]

31 minutes ago, aright said:

 

The original  discussion was as a result of my contention that the EU does not control who we sell arms to now. See above

Pitrevie disagreed and said they do have control over our sales.

 

To answer your question yes you do need a licence to export weapons but it's a British licence not an EU licence so Britain is in control of its arms exports not the EU. I'm sure that either as a courtesy or maybe by law the EU would be informed  about arms movements 

As evidence when you want to export your shooter you need to apply for a UK licence not an EU

From gov.uk

Licences are needed for import and export of military and paramilitary goods, dual-use and technology, artworks, plants and animals, medicines and chemicals - be aware of your responsibilities and who the relevant UK licensing authorities are.

 

we will disagree

 

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm140325/wmstext/140325m0001.htm

[aright]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

we will disagree

 

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm140325/wmstext/140325m0001.htm

ok no problem

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, aright said:

You need to read more and leave the first Industrial Revolution behind you. We are in phase 5 or is it 6 now.

Nobody produces complete aircraft anymore. It's all about modular systems.

Outsourcing

Many components are not built by Boeing but are outsourced to other manufacturers both in the US and increasingly around the world. This may be either for cost savings in production, specialist development or as an incentive for that country to buy other Boeing products. Here is a list of some of the outsourced components:

• Fuselage, engine nacelles and pylons - Spirit AeroSystems (formerly Boeing), Wichita.
• Slats and flaps - Spirit AeroSystems (formerly Boeing), Tulsa.
• Doors - Vought, Stuart, FL.
• Spoilers - Goodrich, Charlotte, NC.
• Vertical fin - Xi'an Aircraft Industry, China.
• Horizontal stabiliser - Korea Aerospace Industries.
• Ailerons - Asian Composites Manufacturing, Malaysia.
• Rudder - Bombardier, Belfast and AVIC subsidiary Chengfei Commercial Aircraft (CCAC), China
• Tail section (aluminium extrusions for) - Alcoa / Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing, China.
• Main landing gear doors - Aerospace Industrial Development Corp, Taiwan.
• Inboard Flap - Mitsubishi, Japan.
• Elevator - Fuji, Japan.
• Winglets - Kawasaki, Japan.
• Fwd entry door & Overwing exits - Chengdu Aircraft, China.
• Wing-to-body fairing panels and tail cone - BHA Aero Composite Parts Co. Ltd, China.

As for nuclear reactors

http://www.cityam.com/256579/rolls-royce-launches-partnership-engineering-giants-amec

 

As for Dyson He claims that assembly as opposed to manufacturing  isn't worth a candle but what does he know? He claims in todays world intellectual property is more important than manufacturing. How much is his business worth? Do you think by assembling in Asia thus denying Brits jobs he is immoral?  As a shareholder myself of manufacturing companies I expect the owner or CEO  of those companies to have an obligation, to me, to maximise profits and share value and if that involves manufacturing off shore get it on. It's called Capitalism and I am the one risking my capital.  You can of course change this at the next election by voting for Corbyn who will nationalise everything and bring it all in house,  but be assured you will get a tractor report every week.

 

I was in Edinburgh last month for the Festival. Had dinner on 2 nights in Leith...great place.

Poundland is a chain of stores (Indian owned I think) where everything costs a £1. I doubt you would find them north of the border they are far too expensive for Scotland.      

 

Your acidic tone negates some of the fine points you make.  One thing though: I think we all need to be wary of supporting one system,eg, Capitalism.  Look at the mess unrestrained capitalism caused in recent times. IMHO a managed economy is essential and this might include social policies aligned to business, after all successful economies such as Germany adopt them.

[aright]

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Your acidic tone negates some of the fine points you make.  One thing though: I think we all need to be wary of supporting one system,eg, Capitalism.  Look at the mess unrestrained capitalism caused in recent times. IMHO a managed economy is essential and this might include social policies aligned to business, after all successful economies such as Germany adopt them.

I didn't intend the tone to be acidic and I am sorry you took it that way and I certainly don't advocate unrestrained capitalism. You seem to be suggesting the managed economy that is Germanys has stopped social unrest. That I find unrealistic.

On a softer note.

• Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbour.
• Communism: You have two cows. You give them to the government, and the government then gives you some milk.
• Fascism: You have two cows. You give them to the government, and the government then sells you some milk.
• Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
• Nazism: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

Well we can get into semantics if you wish

 

I consider the risks to living standards to be tangible

 

I consider the so called benefits to be intangible:

 

1) sovereignty - Can I spend that?

 

2) control of our laws (we do anyway, but let's run with that) what laws exactly have been foisted on us to our financial disadvantage or the have harmed our well being?

 

3) Control of our borders: that was a home made problem; we could have restricted immigration within EU strictures. Anyway, immigration has slowed dramatically - people don't want to come here.

 

4) So we can be Britannia Rules the Waves? Really?

 

So what are the huge TANGIBLE benefits?

If risk is truly tangible then everything must be! Overall, I see staying in is riskier than bailing out. That's all.

 

What's with the waves stuff?

[mommysboy]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

I didn't intend the tone to be acidic and I am sorry you took it that way and I certainly don't advocate unrestrained capitalism. You seem to be suggesting the managed economy that is Germanys has stopped social unrest. That I find unrealistic.

On a softer note.

• Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbour.
• Communism: You have two cows. You give them to the government, and the government then gives you some milk.
• Fascism: You have two cows. You give them to the government, and the government then sells you some milk.
• Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
• Nazism: You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

If we stick to left wing and right wing then that would likely include 99% of people, and would avoid a debate that fractures in to a thousand dichotomies of small differences.  My observation is that both sides have merits, and there is always a centre ground that transcends ideology, but persuing one to the negation of the other always creates trouble.

[aright]

I would agree both sides have merits unfortunately you only get one vote . In my lifetime I have voted for all three major political parties in the UK. If I had to vote tomorrow I would vote Conservative but the box I tick at the next election will involve a study of all three manifestos. Even so I am not naïve enough to think my chosen party will give me all of the manifesto. ....more like 30%

On a lighter note again. The Monster Raving Loony Party have promised if they get into power to declare Unicorns a protected species and to declare the Channel Tunnel a No Fly Zone. I might give them serious consideration.

Edited September 15, 2017 by aright

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

If risk is truly tangible then everything must be! Overall, I see staying in is riskier than bailing out. That's all.

 

What's with the waves stuff?

There is a very real possibility of tangible damage in terms of living standards 

 

I do not see a possibility of major tangible benefits in terms of living standards

 

The upside must be much greater than the downside to make the gamble worth the risk

 

"Britannia rules the waves" alluded to the Brexiter tendency to cloak themselves in the flag: plucky UK can go it alone etc

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, aright said:

Education system?

In the world university rankings Germany's best university  is ranked at number 60. University of Munich

The UK has four University's  in the top 10. Oxford , Cambridge. University College London and Imperial College London.

The UK has 10 Universities with a higher rank than Munich

Makes a bit of  nonsense out of your education remark.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2016

 

I'm off. Catch you later

Yes, proper Russel Group universities are excellent. I'm a Durham man.

 

But you misunderstand. Academics are certainly required for R and a bit of D

 

But, for 21st century manufacturing you need many technicians with HNC/HND type qualifications ( no idea what the NVQ equivalents are) and undergraduate degree level engineers, physicists and chemists.

 

The German system slaughters us in this way.

 

Add in our short term (bloody shareholder value) system v. Long term German investment and the rest. As they say, is history!

 

My main claim to fame is semi conductor physics. We should lead the world. Where are we? Nowhere ?

[nauseus]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, proper Russel Group universities are excellent. I'm a Durham man.

 

But you misunderstand. Academics are certainly required for R and a bit of D

 

But, for 21st century manufacturing you need many technicians with HNC/HND type qualifications ( no idea what the NVQ equivalents are) and undergraduate degree level engineers, physicists and chemists.

 

The German system slaughters us in this way.

 

Add in our short term (bloody shareholder value) system v. Long term German investment and the rest. As they say, is history!

 

My main claim to fame is semi conductor physics. We should lead the world. Where are we? Nowhere ?

Could be your finest hour is nigh, Grouse! 

 

 

[aright]

After 40years of membership and a promise to consumers and businesses of a wider domestic market, less than 5% of UK companies export directly to the EU  but are required by EU law to shoulder the financial and regulatory burden that comes with membership. Although Juncker now tells us about deals they are working on in 40 years they have not managed to get a deal with the large countries in their ascendancy, like China. On the other hand small countries like Iceland and Switzerland have secured free trade agreements with Beijing.

In or out there are certainly risks but I don't understand why you seem opinionated about the bad effects of leaving but when asked to quantify where you feel the EU will be 10 years from now  you don't want  to tell us. Surely you wouldn't want to stay  if you had a bad vision of the future.

As I said in or out there are risks but we did not become a great Nation by being nannied or risk averse.

Out,damned spot! Out, I say! 

 

[aright]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Could be your finest hour is nigh, Grouse! 

 

 

Why because he has something to do with trams?  

[nauseus]

Just now, aright said:

Why because he has something to do with trams?  

Just trying to install a bit of optimism. Despite our obvious differences over the EU I'm sure he is a good and capable fellow. 

[aright]

You are most probably right but I think I will reserve judgment until I find out which footy team he supports.

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

After 40years of membership and a promise to consumers and businesses of a wider domestic market, less than 5% of UK companies export directly to the EU  but are required by EU law to shoulder the financial and regulatory burden that comes with membership. Although Juncker now tells us about deals they are working on in 40 years they have not managed to get a deal with the large countries in their ascendancy, like China. On the other hand small countries like Iceland and Switzerland have secured free trade agreements with Beijing.

In or out there are certainly risks but I don't understand why you seem opinionated about the bad effects of leaving but when asked to quantify where you feel the EU will be 10 years from now  you don't want  to tell us. Surely you wouldn't want to stay  if you had a bad vision of the future.

As I said in or out there are risks but we did not become a great Nation by being nannied or risk averse.

Out,damned spot! Out, I say! 

 

I get that - a lot of folks don't - Junker mentions reform once, then forgets it and promotes THE President, Finance Minister, Labour Minister, more Shengen and THE Army. The Dutch PM blew him off on Shengen already! 

Edited September 15, 2017 by nauseus

[Grouse]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Could be your finest hour is nigh, Grouse! 

 

 

What, making chips! ?

[Grouse]

30 minutes ago, aright said:

Why because he has something to do with trams?  

I'm not a tramsexual!

[Grouse]

24 minutes ago, aright said:

You are most probably right but I think I will reserve judgment until I find out which footy team he supports.

Rotherham United (The Millers) cured me of football!

[Grouse]

This documentary is quite an eye opener about Germany. Worth a watch, so get your lederhosen on and buy few litres of Lowenbrau and tuck in! Zum volle!

 

[aright]

Just now, Grouse said:

Rotherham United (The Millers) cured me of football!

I took a mate to see Rotherham play, a few years ago. At the turnstile I gave the attendant a £20 pound note and said two please. Right he said, do you want the centre forward and the goalkeeper or someone else.

[nasanews]

The Brits are alone and their pound plunged, Europeans are much happier without cold blooded haters to foreigners.