May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

All the big international manufacturers get a "deal" in one way or another.  maybe favourable premesis or advertising or whatever.  We see it all the time, not just in UK.  There are lots of potential cases being brought to the attention of the EU all the time.  It wasn't very subtle but it was just a statement of an existing fact - nothing new because of Brexit.

 

I have personal experience of a UK company doing business internationally and it is often easier to trade with (for example) Australia, than the EU because OZ doesn't have the same requirements on their product as does the EU. 

 

Normally, manufacturers like to standardise products to comply with multiple markets. Getting rid of so called non tariff barriers is a great benefit of the EU. Are you of an age to remember when BL ruined the lines of the MGB just so it could be sold in the USA? For me, drugs certified for EU are the ones to go for. Ever had Thai fakes? Same for CE rated electrics. Not everything about the EU is bad

[jpinx]

20 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Normally, manufacturers like to standardise products to comply with multiple markets. Getting rid of so called non tariff barriers is a great benefit of the EU. Are you of an age to remember when BL ruined the lines of the MGB just so it could be sold in the USA? For me, drugs certified for EU are the ones to go for. Ever had Thai fakes? Same for CE rated electrics. Not everything about the EU is bad

Getting rid of tarriffs is of no benefit if the cost of the product is tripled as a result --  as happened with many of the medicines and hospital equipment.

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

You want a reference? Try the High Court.

Is there a reference to such a case being brought successfully?

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Is there a reference to such a case being brought successfully?

 

Some people should keep up with the news. The High Court has ruled that Parliament has authority over the decision-making process and the Judiciary police the laws over and above any claimed 'INSTRUCTIONS' bogusly listed by hard Brexiteers.

 

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Getting rid of tarriffs is of no benefit if the cost of the product is tripled as a result --  as happened with many of the medicines and hospital equipment.

 

I assume you are involved with medical business?

 

I would PREFER to have Bayer drugs and Siemens or Philips scanners than some dodgy stuff.

 

Care to give an example?

[jpinx]

22 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Some people should keep up with the news. The High Court has ruled that Parliament has authority over the decision-making process and the Judiciary police the laws over and above any claimed 'INSTRUCTIONS' bogusly listed by hard Brexiteers.

 

We're at cross purposes.  I am referring to the potential action against the Leave campaign for misleading the voters during the run-up to the referendum -- not the post referendum action about who can trigger article 50 

[jpinx]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I assume you are involved with medical business?

 

I would PREFER to have Bayer drugs and Siemens or Philips scanners than some dodgy stuff.

 

Care to give an example?

I can't remember details from the 1970's and 80's.  The suppliers who had been providing stuff to UK standards were suddenly no longer acceptable, even thought sometimes the specs were actually better than EU ones.  The existing stock of wheelchairs were dumped on the scrapheap with no compensation for the stockholders, as one example.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I can't remember details from the 1970's and 80's.  The suppliers who had been providing stuff to UK standards were suddenly no longer acceptable, even thought sometimes the specs were actually better than EU ones.  The existing stock of wheelchairs were dumped on the scrapheap with no compensation for the stockholders, as one example.

 

Im astonished that UK standards would exceed European standards in many areas! Maybe that's the plan; sell dodgy stuff to the third world. Brilliant!

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

Im astonished that UK standards would exceed European standards in many areas! Maybe that's the plan; sell dodgy stuff to the third world. Brilliant!

You misconstrue  the reply...

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, jpinx said:

You misconstrue  the reply...

 

Yes, sorry!

[Scott]

A post with altered quotes and numerous replies has been removed.   Here's the rule:

 

2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned.

[elliss]

On 11/6/2016 at 6:03 PM, chiang mai said:

 

You forget the US election result perhaps? If Trump wins (God help us) GBP will appear stronger against USD albeit it is the value of USD that will have declined.

 

     Fyi ,

 GBP  is more impotrant to me  than,, God and his  religion . Top  old to repent .

       Keep  replies on topic , many thanks. 555

[jimmybkk]

On 08/11/2016 at 3:14 AM, chiang mai said:

 

 

That wasn't what you asked earlier, you're now changing the ground rules of your argument by adding, "if the British public had voted to remain now".

 

Answer, dunno.

 

You lost me. What exactly did I ask earlier and how did I change the ground rules?

[SheungWan]

17 hours ago, elliss said:

 

     Fyi ,

 GBP  is more impotrant to me  than,, God and his  religion . Top  old to repent .

       Keep  replies on topic , many thanks. 555

 

The dollar appears to have held quite steady in response to the US elections. No apparent side-effect bounce in sterling still circling in the 43 baht range.

[jimmybkk]

On 08/11/2016 at 1:24 AM, AlexRich said:

 

Instead we now have the three amigos Boris, Davis and Fox ... hardly inspiring really? A serial liar and chancer, a mediocre politician and a closeted gay man who inspires no one! None of them have a clue about the complexities they are facing ... they are May's convenient scapegoats should this adventure up Sh*t Creek turn out badly. As for May, she sold her soul to the Daily Mail in return for their support ... they couldn't quite stomach the thought of Boris Johnson, so at least they got one thing right. Unfortunately, her political epitaph is likely to be worse than Cameron's. 

 

I suspect that Cameron quit because his heart wasn't in Brexit ... did you really expect him to implement something he has no belief in? His resignation came as no surprise to anyone, his position was untenable once the vote went against him. As for Osborne, my understanding is that he was keen to stay on, but May dislikes him so much she was keen for him to go. The choice was not his to make.

 

Cameron agreed to a referendum because he was under pressure from right wing conservatives and the threat of UKIP. He gambled and lost. It was not his idea, he simply gave in to pressure. The history books will not be kind to him, or the Mayhem Government. 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree with your point about May and the rest not being the right team to lead Britain through Brexit - I think even Stevie Wonder could see that... May was a remainer who apparently was only pretending to be a remainer and once the people voted for Brexit she was able to breathe a huge sigh of relief, remove her disguise and reveal that she was actually an ardent supporter of Brexit all along... Yeah, right...

 

What was needed was for someone who genuinely believed that Brexit was right for the country to take the helm. Someone with a vision and a plan as to the best way to take the country forward. 

 

I disagree with opinion regarding Cammo and Ozzie though... From Cammo's speech to the CBI in November 2015: "Today I want to debunk an argument that's sometimes put around by those who say: 'Stay in Europe come what may...' Some people seem to say that really, Britain couldn't survive, couldn't do OK, outside the European Union... I don't think that is true." That doesn't sound like the words of a man sharpening the sword he is preparing to fall on to me. Sounds more like a rational man who is prepared to listen to the other side of the argument. Maybe Cammo speak with forked tongue...

 

Ozzie on the other hand did place himself in an untenable position. He was the one going round spreading lies and misinformation in an attempt to scaremonger the electorate into voting to remain, and despite certain aspects of the UK media (the BBC being one of the worst culprits) portraying anyone who voted leave as an uneducated, xenophobic racist, it turns out the people were smart enough to read between the lines and see that what Ozzie was really saying was that he was incapable of adapting to a Britain outside of the EU and if Britain voted to leave then he would be incapable of averting a surefire journey to hellfire and damnation for Britain and its citizens. So his departure is no loss really...

 

However, one thing that Cammo and Ozzie have in common is that they have both shown their true colours and made it abundantly clear that they were on a self-serving mission to ensure their entry into the Old Boys Club. If their desire for a remain victory was so partisan and their convictions so strong... why would they not make public the fact that they would resign if Britain voted for Brexit? That would allow preparations to be made in advance and make the transition to a new PM & Chancellor as smooth as possible, right...? Surely that would be in the best interests of the country they are serving, right? Well, of course it would, but that was not the intention. The intention was to create as much havoc and mayhem as possible to increase the chances of them having an "I told you so..." moment down the track. And it is for the very same reason that there was no contingency plan in place if the unspeakable happened and the people voted for Brexit, which kinda makes a mockery of the government's position now.

 

Cammo and Ozzie didn’t care what they left behind though… They jumped in the car, hit the gas and lobbed a grenade out the window as they pulled away... I would expect this kind of behaviour if they were handing over the reigns of government to an opposing political party, but they weren't. They left their own fellow party members to pick up the pieces, displaying total disregard for them and for the people of Britain. What kind of people are these that would behave in such a way? Well, these are the kind of people that would also like you to believe that remaining in the EU was the right thing to do because it was in the best interests of Britain... Irony, much?

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

 

I don't disagree with your point about May and the rest not being the right team to lead Britain through Brexit - I think even Stevie Wonder could see that... May was a remainer who apparently was only pretending to be a remainer and once the people voted for Brexit she was able to breathe a huge sigh of relief, remove her disguise and reveal that she was actually an ardent supporter of Brexit all along... Yeah, right...

 

 

 

What was needed was for someone who genuinely believed that Brexit was right for the country to take the helm. Someone with a vision and a plan as to the best way to take the country forward. 

 

 

 

I disagree with opinion regarding Cammo and Ozzie though... From Cammo's speech to the CBI in November 2015: "Today I want to debunk an argument that's sometimes put around by those who say: 'Stay in Europe come what may...' Some people seem to say that really, Britain couldn't survive, couldn't do OK, outside the European Union... I don't think that is true." That doesn't sound like the words of a man sharpening the sword he is preparing to fall on to me. Sounds more like a rational man who is prepared to listen to the other side of the argument. Maybe Cammo speak with forked tongue...

 

 

 

Ozzie on the other hand did place himself in an untenable position. He was the one going round spreading lies and misinformation in an attempt to scaremonger the electorate into voting to remain, and despite certain aspects of the UK media (the BBC being one of the worst culprits) portraying anyone who voted leave as an uneducated, xenophobic racist, it turns out the people were smart enough to read between the lines and see that what Ozzie was really saying was that he was incapable of adapting to a Britain outside of the EU and if Britain voted to leave then he would be incapable of averting a surefire journey to hellfire and damnation for Britain and its citizens. So his departure is no loss really...

 

 

 

However, one thing that Cammo and Ozzie have in common is that they have both shown their true colours and made it abundantly clear that they were on a self-serving mission to ensure their entry into the Old Boys Club. If their desire for a remain victory was so partisan and their convictions so strong... why would they not make public the fact that they would resign if Britain voted for Brexit? That would allow preparations to be made in advance and make the transition to a new PM & Chancellor as smooth as possible, right...? Surely that would be in the best interests of the country they are serving, right? Well, of course it would, but that was not the intention. The intention was to create as much havoc and mayhem as possible to increase the chances of them having an "I told you so..." moment down the track. And it is for the very same reason that there was no contingency plan in place if the unspeakable happened and the people voted for Brexit, which kinda makes a mockery of the government's position now.

 

 

 

Cammo and Ozzie didn’t care what they left behind though… They jumped in the car, hit the gas and lobbed a grenade out the window as they pulled away... I would expect this kind of behaviour if they were handing over the reigns of government to an opposing political party, but they weren't. They left their own fellow party members to pick up the pieces, displaying total disregard for them and for the people of Britain. What kind of people are these that would behave in such a way? Well, these are the kind of people that would also like you to believe that remaining in the EU was the right thing to do because it was in the best interests of Britain... Irony, much?

 

 

I'm not going to go back and search newspaper reports or cite quotations and sources ... but a number of articles in various publications indicated and heavily hinted that both Cameron and Osborne's positions would be untenable should they lose that vote. I won't waste a second searching for them.

 

I'm surprised that anyone was surprised ... Cameron going was inevitable ... the people who want Brexit should 'own it'. If Cameron had attempted to lead the Government whatever deal he arrived at would have been dismissed by the brexit mob of the Tory party as a 'sell-out'; with the implication being that they would have achieved a better deal. If he had attempted to trigger Article 50 the next day that fact alone would have been given as the sole reason that Brexit turned out not to be the great success they claimed it would be. This way they are not able to do that. May, like Johnson, positioned herself in such a way as to put her in contention for the top job when Cameron eventually resigned from office. I personally don't believe that May or Johnson were keen on leaving the EU, but they were both very keen on being Cameron's successor. And now we have second-rate politicians leading us to a 'promised land' ... 2017 will be interesting to watch ... and I suspect those that voted for this will be disappointed in the results. But they will not be able to blame either Osborne or Cameron if Brexit turns out to be a poor outcome. I do recall that Brexit Tories signed a letter asking that Cameron stay on regardless of the outcome? A disingenuous and cynical ploy to have a convenient scapegoat should things go wrong ... Cameron did the right thing, he resigned and avoided that ploy.

[AlexRich]

I like this idea. If you want Brexit, go for it, and if you want to opt-in and retain EU citizenship, that is open to you.

 

I do hope that this passes ... as I can retain my association with Europe and the EU. 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/european-parliament-considers-plan-to-let-individual-brits-opt-in-to-keep-their-eu-citizenship/ar-AAk3yZb?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

[jpinx]

48 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I like this idea. If you want Brexit, go for it, and if you want to opt-in and retain EU citizenship, that is open to you.

 

I do hope that this passes ... as I can retain my association with Europe and the EU. 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/european-parliament-considers-plan-to-let-individual-brits-opt-in-to-keep-their-eu-citizenship/ar-AAk3yZb?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Sounds like a plan Stan : )  Here's hoping it's the start of the compromising that's going to be needed to get this done without totally alienating so many people.

[HauptmannUK]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

I like this idea. If you want Brexit, go for it, and if you want to opt-in and retain EU citizenship, that is open to you.

 

I do hope that this passes ... as I can retain my association with Europe and the EU. 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/european-parliament-considers-plan-to-let-individual-brits-opt-in-to-keep-their-eu-citizenship/ar-AAk3yZb?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout

Fantastic idea. I'll be in the queue for one of these. Have lived and worked in both France and Germany and now seriously considering relocation to Germany before retirement in Thailand.

The UK looks on course to become a somewhat depressing Banana Republic (unless you live in Daily-Mail-Land - in which case everything will be wonderful).

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, HauptmannUK said:

Fantastic idea. I'll be in the queue for one of these. Have lived and worked in both France and Germany and now seriously considering relocation to Germany before retirement in Thailand.

The UK looks on course to become a somewhat depressing Banana Republic (unless you live in Daily-Mail-Land - in which case everything will be wonderful).

 

I think some Brexit supporters have an issue with it ... I have not idea how any of them can justify that stance ... if they do not want to associate with the EU that's fine by me ... but they have no right to stop me from doing so.

[chiang mai]

It's interesting to see that Americans who didn't vote for Trump are now rallying around the slogan, "not my President", and this from one of the worlds most democratic societies. Perhaps, with the US elections and the UK's Brexit,  a new form of democracy has come into play around the world or perhaps, democracy just doesn't exist any more, not as we once knew it.

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

It's interesting to see that Americans who didn't vote for Trump are now rallying around the slogan, "not my President", and this from one of the worlds most democratic societies. Perhaps, with the US elections and the UK's Brexit,  a new form of democracy has come into play around the world or perhaps, democracy just doesn't exist any more, not as we once knew it.

That's very true.  I - for one - have been saying in here and elsewhere that we need to work out how democracy really works nowadays.  Populations are deeply divided in many countries, usually as a result of artificial "countries" created by cartographers and politicians who had vested interests and did not follow the traditional, tribal nations' areas.  See the Kurds - no country anymore, Syria created by british and French cartogarphers, Israel,  many African countries, even Germany and Italy are new countries, created  in a similar vein.  Undoing these historical mistakes is the answer to conflicts like Syria.

 

The influx of hopefuls into first world countries like USA, UK and Oz has created a minestrone soup of populations with huge minorities of a very different culture to the natives, and the old style democracy of confrontational party politics frankly doesn't work anymore.  What's needed is proportional representation in some form and then government by consensus.

Edited November 10, 2016 by jpinx

[Laughing Gravy]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

I think some Brexit supporters have an issue with it ... I have not idea how any of them can justify that stance ... if they do not want to associate with the EU that's fine by me ... but they have no right to stop me from doing so.

I would not stop you at all. If that's what you want. I don't think you should have dual citizenship though. It should be one or the other.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[jpinx]

12 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I would not stop you at all. If that's what you want. I don't think you should have dual citizenship though. It should be one or the other.

That's wrong on so many levels.  Multiple citizenship is *exactly* how to solve some of these issues.  It is common for people to have perfectly legal dual citizenship, approved of by the countries who issue the passports involved.  Take the case of the many thousands of Irish/UK citizens - they are already in the happy position of not really being worried if UK is a member of EU or not.  Their right to free travel is in their hands already.

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, jpinx said:

That's wrong on so many levels.  Multiple citizenship is *exactly* how to solve some of these issues.  It is common for people to have perfectly legal dual citizenship, approved of by the countries who issue the passports involved.  Take the case of the many thousands of Irish/UK citizens - they are already in the happy position of not really being worried if UK is a member of EU or not.  Their right to free travel is in their hands already.

We will have to disagree on this one jpinx. The Irish/UK situation is slightly different though.

[rockingrobin]

9 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

We will have to disagree on this one jpinx. The Irish/UK situation is slightly different though.

.

Different from what and how

[jpinx]

11 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

We will have to disagree on this one jpinx. The Irish/UK situation is slightly different though.

It's not a "special case".  There are plenty of dual-citizens around the world.  Think of Oz/UK, Thai/UK, US/Phils, the list is vast.  Some countries don't allow their citizens to hold a second passport, but the number of countries taking that stance is dwindling fast.  There are stories in here about dual-passport holders going to immigration in Thailand with their "other" passport and finding that the database has the two passports linked already, I am quite sure interpol, etc have the same, but obviously I can not confirm that personally.

 

To deny someone a passport for which they qualify according to the rules set by the country of issue, is denying a very basic right.   UK is a melting-pot of nationalities and many UK citizens are entitled to another country's passport by virtue of that persons family ties.  Surprisingly, there is a lot of ignorance about this topic and it is seen as some cheating exploitation to circumvent some immigration rules, but the systems in place at borders and at immigration offices can easily cope.

Edited November 10, 2016 by jpinx

[Laughing Gravy]

20 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

.

Different from what and how

Look at your history. Ireland was once part of the United Kingdom.

[jpinx]

27 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Look at your history. Ireland was once part of the United Kingdom.

If you go down that route of reasoning, you can disassemble most countries. ; )

Edited November 10, 2016 by jpinx

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

It's not a "special case".  There are plenty of dual-citizens around the world.  Think of Oz/UK, Thai/UK, US/Phils, the list is vast.  Some countries don't allow their citizens to hold a second passport, but the number of countries taking that stance is dwindling fast.  There are stories in here about dual-passport holders going to immigration in Thailand with their "other" passport and finding that the database has the two passports linked already, I am quite sure interpol, etc have the same, but obviously I can not confirm that personally.

 

To deny someone a passport for which they qualify according to the rules set by the country of issue, is denying a very basic right.   UK is a melting-pot of nationalities and many UK citizens are entitled to another country's passport by virtue of that persons family ties.  Surprisingly, there is a lot of ignorance about this topic and it is seen as some cheating exploitation to circumvent some immigration rules, but the systems in place at borders and at immigration offices can easily cope.

Let me explain why I don’t feel that having dual citizenship, one with the UK and one as an EU citizen, is the right thing. Firstly how do you quantify who gets one. I lived and worked in two EU countries but don’t feel that I am a citizen of them countries. I have been here in Thailand for over 15 years and don’t feel I should get a Thai passport. I am here working and have to get a visa and work permit every year to justify that my credentials are correct. I agree with that.  I would like some things to change for long term foreigners who are married to a Thai like buying property (houses). The same when I was working and in Europe I had to justify my credentials. I believe in a points based system. The dual citizenship could be open for lots of manipulation and then who qualifies. The sister, cousin, aunt, father in law etc.

I am not against people working in other countries providing they are contributing and are needed. Having an EU citizenship would qualify people to move across all the EU countries for benefits, housing, schooling, health care etc. That is what I see as a potential problem. Again this is just my opinion and others will have their own.