May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Can you please explain how the court case is going to nullify the referendum result.

 

My actual words were " Instead, a wealthy person (with a lot of backing from others who hate the referendum result) brought a court case in an attempt to nullify the referendum result..... "

 

As far as I can make out, its still 'all up in the air'.  Did the Court decision mean that Article 50 cannot be invoked without a parliamentary vote?  If this is the case and MPs vote against invoking Article 50, then its nullified the referendum vote.

 

But this is likely to result in an General Election, which would be interesting - but cause more chaos.

 

Or does it mean that MPs must vote on whether or not to accept the final agreement (at most 2 years after Article 50 has been invoked)?

[dick dasterdly]

Anyway, as I mentioned in another thread the EU (and EU countries coming up for elections) must be v worried now following the brexit and Trump vote.

 

Will there be a 'domino' effect as those voters who have entirely lost trust in their political systems (many as it turns out), continue the 'domino' effect?

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Really? Having been in Berlin is necessary for someone to have an informed opinion about Brexit? What exactly would someone learn from visiting Berlin that would be crucial to understanding Brexit? What would there be without which an informed opinion is impossible?

 

The context of the discussion was about moving to Mainland Europe as an alternative to post-Brexit England. To recommend moving somewhere on the back of a reference in a novel without any personal experience of the place is a nonsense.

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Presumably the same is going to happen in the US?

 

The violence shown by those who hate Trump towards Trump supporters has proven that the unintelligent "numpties" are not confined to one side, and I've no doubt the same applies in the UK.

 

Credit to UK voters though as they haven't shown the same propensity to demonstrate/riot and whilst doing so attack those who voted the other way.

 

Instead, a wealthy person (with a lot of backing from others who hate the referendum result) brought a court case in an attempt to nullify the referendum result.....

"in an attempt to nullify the referendum result....."

Obviously a basic misunderstanding of what the case was about.

 

Now the case against the leave campaign, different altogether, that could make the result democratically unsafe.

[Laughing Gravy]

10 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Presumably the same is going to happen in the US?

 

The violence shown by those who hate Trump towards Trump supporters has proven that the unintelligent "numpties" are not confined to one side, and I've no doubt the same applies in the UK.

 

Credit to UK voters though as they haven't shown the same propensity to demonstrate/riot and whilst doing so attack those who voted the other way.

 

Instead, a wealthy person (with a lot of backing from others who hate the referendum result) brought a court case in an attempt to nullify the referendum result.....

If you look at the papers today the very same. the establishment will nit go without a fight.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/731137/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-electoral-college-vote-president-us-overturn-result

[SheungWan]

55 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

If you look at the papers today the very same. the establishment will nit go without a fight.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/731137/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-electoral-college-vote-president-us-overturn-result

 

Firstly the Express is a rubbish newspaper, secondly the speculation re 'the establishment' is all yours and thirdly, anybody plowing through the article will find that not only has it never happened but would have to be approved by a Republican Congress. So zero odds. A bogus stick from beginning to end, so must try better next time. Next please!

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

Firstly the Express is a rubbish newspaper, secondly the speculation re 'the establishment' is all yours and thirdly, anybody plowing through the article will find that not only has it never happened but would have to be approved by a Republican Congress. So zero odds. A bogus stick from beginning to end, so must try better next time. Next please!

OK you are the man ... Murdoch.

I could say that of the links you put but I don't need to.

[AlexRich]

22 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

'The City (Berlin) looks great...'  So I guess you haven't been there, have you? If so, not exactly a good reflection on your other contributions re the Brexit thread.

 

I have been there, as a matter of fact, a few years ago, and was very impressed with the city and the people.

 

I've been all over Germany ... it's the one European country I have explored more than any other.The list is as follows:

 

- Frankfurt (many times)

- Hamburg

- Wurzberg

- Mannheim

- Stuttgart 

- Munich

- Berlin  

 

... as well as a few smaller towns.

 

I have friends from Germany that I worked with in London and holidayed with in their home country. And I have also attended several trade fairs in that country. So you guessed wrong! 

 

Try not be a smart ar*e ... it requires an intelligence that you don't possess.

 

 

[AlexRich]

15 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

The context of the discussion was about moving to Mainland Europe as an alternative to post-Brexit England. To recommend moving somewhere on the back of a reference in a novel without any personal experience of the place is a nonsense.

 

What is nonsense is to presume that a person has never set foot in Berlin ... just because they referenced a newly launched TV spy thriller that is set in Berlin (not a novel?). 

 

For the record, I have been all over Germany ... including Berlin, a city that I liked very much. 

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04f77j7

 

BBC World Service documentary Brexit by Interrail. Visits four EU countries to test the temperature post referendum. Really worth listening to. Politicians, business people and voxpop.

 

Opinions from Berlin and Prague particularly sobering. General opinion is not so much schadenfreude as regret with resolve. Looks like our EU friends are sorry this is happening but will not bend any rules to help us stay. The four freedoms will remain 4 NOT 3 1/2 freedoms etc.

 

Interesting that each country has its own colloquialisms:

 

You made the soup in your own kitchen, now you must eat it - Berlin

 

You can either have the butter or the money for the butter 

 

You made the bed, now you must sleep in it - Prague

 

The Germans made an interesting point. The sanctions on Russia were extremely painful for German industry, but they are supported unanimously for reasons of solidarity.

 

Prague is angry about the xenophobia that's arising in the UK. Shouting for people to leave if they're overhearing speaking their home language. Big deal in the press.

 

Our minister for Brexit has NO friends in the EU after stating at the Con party conference that EU folk living in the U.K. were "bargaining chips"

 

I feel ashamed. The Europeans interviewed sounded such nice civilised people ?

[jpinx]

I make no apologies for repeating this --

 

Tusk and Junkers are getting worried now,,,,,

https://euobserver.com/foreign/135851

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37957673

 ....All these elections coming up within the EU..

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37935120


Anyone who refuses to look at the juggernaut of the right-wing
resurgence across Europe is in denial. They try to stop anyone else
from seeing it, but all the news channels are carrying stories based
on the same facts and polls.  2017 could easily be the demise of the
EU.  This is not a forecast or a prophecy - just a statement based on
the information available. For those of us who have read how Germany
created a huge war-machine prior to 1934, coming back from their
defeat only 16 years before, the EU army proposal, heavily backed by
Merkel, sends shivers down the spine.

[rockingrobin]

On 11/11/2016 at 6:14 AM, rockingrobin said:

Can you please explain how the court case is going to nullify the referendum result.

 

 

On 11/11/2016 at 6:51 AM, dick dasterdly said:

My actual words were " Instead, a wealthy person (with a lot of backing from others who hate the referendum result) brought a court case in an attempt to nullify the referendum result..... "

 

As far as I can make out, its still 'all up in the air'.  Did the Court decision mean that Article 50 cannot be invoked without a parliamentary vote?  If this is the case and MPs vote against invoking Article 50, then its nullified the referendum vote.

 

But this is likely to result in an General Election, which would be interesting - but cause more chaos.

 

Or does it mean that MPs must vote on whether or not to accept the final agreement (at most 2 years after Article 50 has been invoked)?

I was curious because one of the claimants voted leave in the referendum 

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

 

I was curious because one of the claimants voted leave in the referendum 

I saw that too -- no idea what the game-plan was there.  Something fishy about it, but given the fact that she was only one af several appelants, it's of academic interest only.  I see the appeal has gone to the Supreme Court...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/567516/Grounds_of_Appeal_to_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_Secretary_of_State_for_Exiting_the_European_Union.pdf

[nausea]

Germans are, well, Germans; if you've ever met one you'll know what I mean. And I can see how a European army would be very attractive to them. The British are very much their antithesis.

 

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, nausea said:

Germans are, well, Germans; if you've ever met one you'll know what I mean. And I can see how a European army would be very attractive to them. The British are very much their antithesis.

 

 

Fools are, well fools; if you've ever read one you'll know what I mean.

[nausea]

7 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Fools are, well fools; if you've ever read one you'll know what I mean.

So what exactly is foolish - that Germans are Germans, that a European army would be attractive to them, or that the British are their antithesis.

[jpinx]

17 minutes ago, nausea said:

So what exactly is foolish - that Germans are Germans, that a European army would be attractive to them, or that the British are their antithesis.

The foolishness is believing that arrogance begets wisdom and authority

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nausea said:

Germans are, well, Germans; if you've ever met one you'll know what I mean. And I can see how a European army would be very attractive to them. The British are very much their antithesis.

 

 

Utter BS

 

You clearly have never lived and worked in Germany or understand typical German psyche.

 

The Anglo Saxon Germans have always been pro British. Ask Hitler!

 

In many ways it should have been us and the Germans against the USA. We would be hugely better off ....

[Grouse]

41 minutes ago, nausea said:

So what exactly is foolish - that Germans are Germans, that a European army would be attractive to them, or that the British are their antithesis.

 

All of the above

[nausea]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Utter BS

 

You clearly have never lived and worked in Germany or understand typical German psyche.

 

The Anglo Saxon Germans have always been pro British. Ask Hitler!

 

In many ways it should have been us and the Germans against the USA. We would be hugely better off ....

I think you misunderstood me. I agree, we and the Germans are natural allies. Where the Germans are strong we are weak, where the Germans are weak we are strong. I like the Germans, and have some understanding of their psyche, having lived with a German for a number of years. Incidentally, the stereotypes are totally off.  They are mainly based on a Prussian stereotype, whereas as you probably know, Germany is much more than that.

[nausea]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

All of the above

Easy answer. Details please. Why are these foolish assumptions.

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, nausea said:

I think you misunderstood me. I agree, we and the Germans are natural allies. Where the Germans are strong we are weak, where the Germans are weak we are strong. I like the Germans, and have some understanding of their psyche, having lived with a German for a number of years. Incidentally, the stereotypes are totally off.  They are mainly based on a Prussian stereotype, whereas as you probably know, Germany is much more than that.

 

Sorry I misunderstood you!

[HauptmannUK]

Having worked in Germany, speaking the language (and managing German staff) I always found the German stereotype that is promoted in the UK to be completely at odds with reality.  The Germans are similar to the British in numerous ways. Most Germans have a great sense of humour - and they really appreciate British humour. 

I think there a lot of resentment and envy in the UK about the fact that Germany lost the war but has subsequently prospered more than the UK. A lot of that, of course, was due to

corruption in UK government and business (the UK received far more Msrshall Plan aid than Germany - 26% against 11% - but a large chunk of it found its way into the pockets of influential individuals rather than supporting the post-war economy).

[sandyf]

Makes you wonder what would have happened if the referendum result had gone the other way. The brexit bully boys picked on the children.

 

The 51-year-old complained to police after her children faced verbal attacks following her appearance on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show with Nigel Farage. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-warned-stay-inside-safety-abuse-article-50-brexit-high-court-a7413271.html

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Makes you wonder what would have happened if the referendum result had gone the other way. The brexit bully boys picked on the children.

 

The 51-year-old complained to police after her children faced verbal attacks following her appearance on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show with Nigel Farage. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-warned-stay-inside-safety-abuse-article-50-brexit-high-court-a7413271.html

 

This is really appalling and dangerous

 

It's like Germany in the '30s!

 

Police need to come down very hard on these idiots.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Grouse

[AlexRich]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

This is really appalling and dangerous

 

It's like Germany in the '30s!

 

Police need to come down very hard on these idiots.

 

It's not just Brexit, it's the general mood of people across many countries, not happy with their lot and not happy with established politicians ... they don't feel they have a voice or any influence over what goes on in their communities. It is very reminiscent of the 1930's. So whilst I hate the way people voted I understand the dissatisfaction. In the 1930's it led to Hitler and Mussolini ... and I fear we have history repeating itself with Trump, Le Pen, Wilders and the like.

 

What happened in Germany could happen anywhere, that's what's scary.

 

[jpinx]

27 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's not just Brexit, it's the general mood of people across many countries, not happy with their lot and not happy with established politicians ... they don't feel they have a voice or any influence over what goes on in their communities. It is very reminiscent of the 1930's. So whilst I hate the way people voted I understand the dissatisfaction. In the 1930's it led to Hitler and Mussolini ... and I fear we have history repeating itself with Trump, Le Pen, Wilders and the like.

 

What happened in Germany could happen anywhere, that's what's scary.

 

I've been saying this for a while now.  People have reached the end of their patience with confrontational party politics not producing inspiring leaders nor policies that deliver what is needed.  How much of the Remain campaign was actually promoting the advantages of remaining? Campaigning in elections nowadays is very destructive and divisive - look at Clinton & Trump, most speeches were about how bad the other was - very little on actual policies for the future.  The opinion polls in many months before the referendum were  showing results within the same error bracket as the actual vote, so people have not made last-minute decisions or been swayed by campaigns -- they've been thinking like this for quite a long time.  Whether Brexit is right or wrong is debatable, but the way the EU is heading for the cliff edge of next years elections, Brexit is possibly just the first manifestation of the malaise of modern politics, and worse - the malaise of the modern social order.

Edited November 13, 2016 by jpinx

[Grouse]

56 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I've been saying this for a while now.  People have reached the end of their patience with confrontational party politics not producing inspiring leaders nor policies that deliver what is needed.  How much of the Remain campaign was actually promoting the advantages of remaining? Campaigning in elections nowadays is very destructive and divisive - look at Clinton & Trump, most speeches were about how bad the other was - very little on actual policies for the future.  The opinion polls in many months before the referendum were  showing results within the same error bracket as the actual vote, so people have not made last-minute decisions or been swayed by campaigns -- they've been thinking like this for quite a long time.  Whether Brexit is right or wrong is debatable, but the way the EU is heading for the cliff edge of next years elections, Brexit is possibly just the first manifestation of the malaise of modern politics, and worse - the malaise of the modern social order.

 

You are correct of course. What gets me is the sense of joy that some people have. They don't see the danger, don't understand the history. I am worried ?

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

You are correct of course. What gets me is the sense of joy that some people have. They don't see the danger, don't understand the history. I am worried ?

 

That's a good point. People believe that they have done a great thing ... just as people believed that Hitler was the saviour of Germany, restoring pride in the Fatherland ... pride before a fall. 

[Khun Han]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

Makes you wonder what would have happened if the referendum result had gone the other way. The brexit bully boys picked on the children.

 

The 51-year-old complained to police after her children faced verbal attacks following her appearance on the BBC's Andrew Marr Show with Nigel Farage. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-warned-stay-inside-safety-abuse-article-50-brexit-high-court-a7413271.html

 

Gina Miller is a drama queen. There is nothing of substance in the above article: just her claim. Her previous claim of 'vile abuse' in emails was substantiated by this one that she showed her Reuters interviewer:

 

"You are obviously a devious lady"

 

That remain and it's supporters are resorting to shouting this nonsense to any media that will listen shows just how desperate they are.