I spend about an hour trying to find anything about the UK losing it's opt outs in some or all areas and about the UK having to or be made to adopt the euro by 2020. I cannot find any such information on Europa.eu or elsewhere (except telegraph.co.uk).

 

It does not make sense to me. Opt outs are permanent unless a treaty would have an expiration date. I cannot find such a thing in regards to say the euro zone (Maastricht 1991) or other UK opt outs such as the Schengen zone. And if such was the case I'd expect major news and reporting outlets to point out that the UK will have no choice but to join the euro, Schengen and everything else it has opted out off untill now. It might be just me but I cannot find anything that comes even close to that.

 

The only thing I can imagen is that Brussels keeps on persuading it's members to hop onboard and join proposal, directive or treaty X or Y to work to an ever closer union. 

 

Persuading a country is far from forcing a country to do something. Flirting back and forth is to be exoected in international politics and economics. But the UK cannot bullied into things and such a thing may br a bit counter productive... The EU members such as the representatives in the council of ministers certainly must know this. 

 

In 2014 the European leaders said:
"“the concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further”."

 

 

As said I found nothing on europa.eu. I did find these articles though:

- https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-uk-and-eurozone/

- https://fullfact.org/europe/governments-eu-leaflet-special-status/
- https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

You could check out every thread concerning Brexit and not find a single post describing  anything good at all to come out of Brexit...not a single post.

All that Brexiteers are doing are attempting to fence off their critics and failing to defend the obviously indefensible.

Here is more evidence from the government.......

 

Massive budget hole

 

They now estimate the cost of Brexit to be £30,000 for every man jack one of the British people 

 

Just for once, Brexiteers, rather than ad hominem attacks and b/s about freedom or immigrants give give us one.....just one tangible benefit that has arisen from Brexit

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 8:10 AM, pitrevie said:

Farage is complaining because the judges have pronounced that Parliament is supreme. I think anyone who has watched the videos by Professor Michael Dougan got that point early on. 

 

"The first is the myth of sovereignty, there is no doubt whatsoever that the United Kingdom is a sovereign state under international law. There is no doubt whatsoever that the parliament in Westminster is the supreme law making authority in this country.

Conversely there is no doubt whatsoever that the EU is not a sovereign entity, far from being a sovereign state, it is not even a sovereign entity, it has only those powers which has been given under the EU treaties. If the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it is purely because our parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation.

So it the UK a sovereign state? Yes.

Is parliament our supreme legislative authority? Yes."   Professor Michael Dougan

A sovereign state is one that has no other state or entity with power over it..hasn't Brussels overturned parliaments rulings before?Doesn't The EP dictate fiscal,economic and even social laws.SS..this professor seems to be  talking out hi ****.

A sovereign state is one that has no other state or entity with power over it..hasn't Brussels overturned parliaments rulings before?Doesn't The EP dictate fiscal,economic and even social laws.SS..this professor seems to be  talking out hi ****.

WP can only do that because your parliament has allowed it to do that.

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11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

WP can only do that because your parliament has allowed it to do that.

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And what UK rulings has the EU actually overturned? Some immigration issues and a ruling on harmonising VAT - not much else.

1 hour ago, mrmazinkle said:

A sovereign state is one that has no other state or entity with power over it..hasn't Brussels overturned parliaments rulings before?Doesn't The EP dictate fiscal,economic and even social laws.SS..this professor seems to be  talking out hi ****.

 

Professor Dougan explains, " If the UK courts sometimes give priority to EU law in the event of a conflict with domestic law, it is purely because our parliament has expressly instructed them to do so in our own legislation. "

22 hours ago, mrmazinkle said:

A sovereign state is one that has no other state or entity with power over it..hasn't Brussels overturned parliaments rulings before?Doesn't The EP dictate fiscal,economic and even social laws.SS..this professor seems to be  talking out hi ****.

No you are making up your own definition from a position of ignorance 

The concept that the UK was subordinate to the EU is incorrect... It was promulgated by those seeking power for themselves and only believed by the ignorant and the gullible 

On 11/24/2016 at 7:06 AM, Loeilad said:

You could check out every thread concerning Brexit and not find a single post describing  anything good at all to come out of Brexit...not a single post.

All that Brexiteers are doing are attempting to fence off their critics and failing to defend the obviously indefensible.

Here is more evidence from the government.......

 

Massive budget hole

 

They now estimate the cost of Brexit to be £30,000 for every man jack one of the British people 

 

Just for once, Brexiteers, rather than ad hominem attacks and b/s about freedom or immigrants give give us one.....just one tangible benefit that has arisen from Brexit

I could well be proven wrong on this (if anyone can be bothered to trawl through the pre-brexit posts), but I think some were saying (as were most of the experts/media) that a brexit vote would result in an immediate apocalypse for the UK?

 

This was proven to be wrong.

 

After the brexit vote we have a few posters continuing to insist that it will result in an eventual apocalypse for the UK, and a poster insisting that the EU will collapse?

 

Let's wait and see.   We'll have a far better idea when we know the results of the elections coming up in other EU countries.

 

Meanwhile, we still have no idea as to whether the UK court ruling means that article 50 cannot be enacted without MPs voting to  support it - or whether it means MPs need to confirm the result of the negotiation?

On 11/24/2016 at 7:06 AM, Loeilad said:

You could check out every thread concerning Brexit and not find a single post describing  anything good at all to come out of Brexit...not a single post.

All that Brexiteers are doing are attempting to fence off their critics and failing to defend the obviously indefensible.

Here is more evidence from the government.......

 

Massive budget hole

 

They now estimate the cost of Brexit to be £30,000 for every man jack one of the British people 

 

Just for once, Brexiteers, rather than ad hominem attacks and b/s about freedom or immigrants give give us one.....just one tangible benefit that has arisen from Brexit

A bit odd as the deficit/borrowing has been increasing over the last decade - and yet now the predicted deficit is down to brexit....

On 11/24/2016 at 7:06 AM, Loeilad said:

You could check out every thread concerning Brexit and not find a single post describing  anything good at all to come out of Brexit...not a single post.

All that Brexiteers are doing are attempting to fence off their critics and failing to defend the obviously indefensible.

Here is more evidence from the government.......

 

Massive budget hole

 

They now estimate the cost of Brexit to be £30,000 for every man jack one of the British people 

 

Just for once, Brexiteers, rather than ad hominem attacks and b/s about freedom or immigrants give give us one.....just one tangible benefit that has arisen from Brexit

Hopefully forcing the EU to change its policies - some of which were hated by the populace of the EU?

 

But its too soon to tell and the eurocrats are showing no signs of doing so at the moment.

 

Presumably they are waiting for the results of the up-coming elections in other EU countries, which is a very short sighted policy to put it mildly!

On 11/24/2016 at 1:19 PM, RuamRudy said:

 

And what UK rulings has the EU actually overturned? Some immigration issues and a ruling on harmonising VAT - not much else.

And those rules haven't helped the poor....

2 hours ago, Loeilad said:

The concept that the UK was subordinate to the EU is incorrect... It was promulgated by those seeking power for themselves and only believed by the ignorant and the gullible 

Really?

 

But its always interesting to hear from another poster that believes the vote was based purely on ignorance and gullibility - rather than personal experience

 

As it turned out, many based their decision (I think) on personal experience - which is why so many finally decided to ignore politicians and experts telling them their way was the best way....

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

A bit odd as the deficit/borrowing has been increasing over the last decade - and yet now the predicted deficit is down to brexit....

You need to be a bit clearer, do you mean deficit, borrowing or debt.

UK government borrowing has fallen by £5.6 billion this financial year, not as much as had been hoped for, so not sure where you get your increasing from.

PH has indicated that a further £122 billion in borrowing will be required over the next 5 years of which approximately 60 billion has been attributed to brexit.

Government debt currently stand at around 83.8 percent of GDP and due to the increased borrowing is expected to breach the dreaded 90 percent within the next 5 years.

There has been no predictions on the deficit, the government has abandoned the Osborne timescale and only prepared to say that the deficit will be removed at the earliest opportunity.

What I find so absurd is that we knew this BEFORE brexit and yet it still has to be pointed out to the grossly  obtuse even nowNegotiation won't work...not in just 2 years

11 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Really?

 

But its always interesting to hear from another poster that believes the vote was based purely on ignorance and gullibility - rather than personal experience

 

As it turned out, many based their decision (I think) on personal experience - which is why so many finally decided to ignore politicians and experts telling them their way was the best way....

personal experience is possibly the worst criteria for drawing conclusions that anyone could use....failing to realise that would just substantiate my point 

13 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Really?

 

But its always interesting to hear from another poster that believes the vote was based purely on ignorance and gullibility - rather than personal experience

 

As it turned out, many based their decision (I think) on personal experience - which is why so many finally decided to ignore politicians and experts telling them their way was the best way....

personal experience is possibly the worst criteria for drawing conclusions that anyone could use....failing to realise that would just substantiate my point 

The tyranny of the majority has never applied in a democracy and it should not apply in this particular democracy.”

On 07/11/2016 at 3:30 AM, Mosha said:

The majority of voters, voted out. The questions on the ballot paper were very clear. The people were constantly told the decision would be respected.

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The words were clear, but the meaning was not.  'Leave' could have still mean ending up like Norway or Switzerland.

 

On 07/11/2016 at 10:30 AM, Mosha said:

The majority of voters, voted out. The questions on the ballot paper were very clear. The people were constantly told the decision would be respected.

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People were lied to..the referendum was advisory and now the majority want to remain

Need it has no plan and is impossible.  It will eventually  be scrapped in one way or another ...in 5 years the Brexiteers will realise that all they achieved was a period if chaos and damage to every single person in the UK

2 hours ago, Loeilad said:

People were lied to..the referendum was advisory and now the majority want to remain

Need it has no plan and is impossible.  It will eventually  be scrapped in one way or another ...in 5 years the Brexiteers will realise that all they achieved was a period if chaos and damage to every single person in the UK

You'll need to prove that statement about "...now the majority want to remain..."  or join the ranks of alarmists and rumour-mongers.

3 hours ago, jpinx said:

You'll need to prove that statement about "...now the majority want to remain..."  or join the ranks of alarmists and rumour-mongers.

Only a second referendum would prove the point.

Do you really think that people voted to be poorer, the implication from the leave campaign was that £350 million a week would be available to improve their lives. Now that some reality is setting in it is not surprising that many are changing their minds.

There was 1.3 million difference in the vote so it would only take 650K to have changed their minds for remain to be in the majority, very easily in the realms of possibility.

 

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Only a second referendum would prove the point

It's very important to make people vote over and over until you get the answer you want

5 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

It's very important to make people vote over and over until you get the answer you want

I fail to understand this compulsion to take posts out of context.

I responded to a post that had called for some form of proof, I merely pointed out that proof could only come in the form of a second referendum.

You obviously jumped to the conclusion that I was advocating that course of action. You couldn't be more wrong, I don't agree with referendums as they have no real function in UK politics, there has only ever been 3 held.

 

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Only a second referendum would prove the point.

Do you really think that people voted to be poorer, the implication from the leave campaign was that £350 million a week would be available to improve their lives. Now that some reality is setting in it is not surprising that many are changing their minds.

There was 1.3 million difference in the vote so it would only take 650K to have changed their minds for remain to be in the majority, very easily in the realms of possibility.

 

ok -- show all the opinion polls taken since the referendum and show the trend to a majority who think the referendum produced a wrong result

Here's a couple to get you started......

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/696760/british-no-regret-Brexit-majority-support-Leave-theresa-may-national-stats-poll-EU

https://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/polls/yougov-the-times-24747

 

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

ok -- show all the opinion polls taken since the referendum and show the trend to a majority who think the referendum produced a wrong result

It was you that criticised another post and called the poster a rumour monger, obviously based on what you are prepared to read. No doubt the polls you do not agree with have been fabricated.

34 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It was you that criticised another post and called the poster a rumour monger, obviously based on what you are prepared to read. No doubt the polls you do not agree with have been fabricated.

OK - I have nothing to do for an hour....

I did not "call" anyone a rumour-monger - I suggested that he might be added to that "class" of poster if he did not produce any reasonable proof - which he has not done.

 

Now you are becoming argumentative for the sake of it. 

42 minutes ago, jpinx said:

OK - I have nothing to do for an hour....

I did not "call" anyone a rumour-monger - I suggested that he might be added to that "class" of poster if he did not produce any reasonable proof - which he has not done.

 

Now you are becoming argumentative for the sake of it. 

That is a bit rich. Invariably anyone who asks for proof is not particularly interested, they already have an argument against it. It does not matter what side of the fence you are on, polls, forecasts etc are not an exact science and should be viewed with some consideration and not dismissed out of hand. Different samples of the population are more than likely to produce different results. The following link would indicate support for the comment in the previous post, but a conclusive result could only be obtained in one way.

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/brexit-britain-british-election-study-insights-from-the-post-eu-referendum-wave-of-the-bes-internet-panel/#.WDk2OrJ96iS

31 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is a bit rich. Invariably anyone who asks for proof is not particularly interested, they already have an argument against it. It does not matter what side of the fence you are on, polls, forecasts etc are not an exact science and should be viewed with some consideration and not dismissed out of hand. Different samples of the population are more than likely to produce different results. The following link would indicate support for the comment in the previous post, but a conclusive result could only be obtained in one way.

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-resources/brexit-britain-british-election-study-insights-from-the-post-eu-referendum-wave-of-the-bes-internet-panel/#.WDk2OrJ96iS

I'm sure that is a fascinating read for those political scientists amongst the posters in TV, but the reality is in the 4 or 5 polls I referred to that were taken post referendum and sponsored by government.  All showed that people were satisfied with the result.   References in my much earlier post,,,,,

 

To state that "...anyone who asks for proof is not particularly interested....." is a good demonstration of high-mindedness verging on contempt.  It certainly does nothing to promote an interesting and constructive debate.