Why doesn't Thailand offer Permanent Residency base on marriage?

[realenglish1]

Simple Then The immigration laws half to change and go with the times Right now I have someone I know very well who is opening an Asian office

in Singapore for one reason alone Because they welcome you with Open arms He is going to employ over 100 people Not a huge company but it is an example of what 

Thailand is missing with its antiquated immigration laws

 

[bandito]

Same with me. 40 years here and still doing my 90 days etc. Son will be conscripted in the THAI ARMY, daughter a succesful accountant and their father (me) some kind of criminal who has te report his whereabouts every 90 days. Can be kicked out of the country anytime, no explanation has te be given. Family or no family.

[muzmurray]

15 hours ago, lostinisaan said:

 

    Living here and being married for 15 years, plus working for 12 years and paying taxes doesn't change the situation.

 

   Thailand without sex tourists, temple viewers, expats and ordinary tourists would be similar to Burma.

 

   Some changes should be done and by offering a 5-year visa for example for those who contributed enough money into this system wouldn't be a big deal for the government. But not for 500 K. Insanity pure. 

 

  The OP's points are all great and some will find out how bad our reputation and social status really is when we get seriously sick, or somebody does a hit and run to any of us. 

 

   None of us is getting younger. 

 

  

    

    

 

As you yourself acknowledge, the government does offer 5 (and 10 and 20) year visas, you surely can not expect to receive one just because of a paltry tax payment?

 

The 500k is a fair chunk of change, but the option is there for those with the money and no other visa options.

 

I have never seen a bad word about Elite, other than from non-members.

[ozmeldo]

For myself, Thailand being what it is I'm not so certain I would want single men having PR status no matter their net worth.

 

Perhaps, automatic PR for single men over 60 and with ten years of prior residence on ironically - their non resident visas.

 

Ignoring family ties is really insulting. Yes, marriages come and go, that's why you could make it automatic at say 5-7 years.

 

While it seems that Immigration catches fake marriage fraudsters from time to time my suspicions are that from western and or English speaking countries the number of fraudulent marriages that are provided visas and pass a two year mark are nill.

 

The really pathetic thing is all we are asking for is to have less Immigration hassles. For decades we have endured arbitrary rules and enforcement. Ridiculous reporting requirements.

 

Is the online reporting thing fixed yet? No, I thought not. Will you ever trust it? I won't especially after its been down for month. And so it goes.

 

If a way could be sorted that guaranteed a foreigner was supporting child/ren at say b15k per month per child, I believe they too, even a single male should have PR status automatically. Paying annual school fees.

 

The Chinese and Sikhs have been gaming this for decades.

 

My wife is college educated with a proper office job in the middle of Bangkok. She is not some washed up Pattaya hooker or Internet bride. She deserves respect and the right to marry as she sees fit.

 

I'm not telling anyone how to run their country, but it seems there are clear win-win possibilities that are ignored out of spite and indifference.

[willr]

Yea but if a Thai guy marries a foriegner she can get thai citizenship without jumping thru hoops,so that's discrimination. 

I guess that's because laws are made by males.

[Farang99]

19 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Why should they grant PR based on anything at all?

If they are proving to be quality citizens , buying land and property, living here over an amount of years, being law abiding and contributing to the economy.

Where would Thailand be today if they never allowed expats to live here?

 

They allow us to live here, but only under a number of restrictions (90 days reporting, annual visa extension, sizeable amount on deposit). There is no indication that we are welcome here by the various bureaucracies. If it were not for our families and friends this would be a pretty awkward place to live.

[NanLaew]

21 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

A poor system by most measures.  Not really knowing the history, I suspect it came about sometime after the vietnam war, when Thailand was seeing a lot of Foreigners, Americans that were hitching up with Thai women.  Just a guess.  Some of the old timers can maybe chime in and discuss what the policies were many years ago.

Maybe you missed the post below which was actually made an hour before you posted your request for some insight from the 'old timers'.

 

21 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

You cannot have your cake and eat it. The only way would be PR which is very easy, if you fullfill their requirements being: 

- earning enough money (I hear THB 110'000/month) and paying taxes accordingly

- have Thai dependents (i.e. wife, underage kids etc.)

- be an investor

 

The rest is a walk in the park; I made it almost 30 years ago and I have lots of friends who went down the same avenue. 
 

Thailand clearly does not want the cheapies and the cheaties; a lesson most European countries could learn.

Should you not make THB 110'000 a month then you still could pay taxes on this or THB 120'000/monthly. Taxation is based on your yearly earning and gets painful once you hit the THB 3.5million + league. 

I think the term ardent is probably missing from the vocabulary of those who gave up their PR sojourn at the first hurdle. Either that or the bar had just opened.

Edited November 6, 2016 by NanLaew

[NoshowJones]

45 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

well hard to have a discussion if you dont give reasons. thailand has provided a visa for everyone. a great retirement visa for over 50 year olds and a cheap 5 year visa for self funded under 50 year olds. hard to argue with those facts.

Read post 156, that about sums it up, I am fed up going over this time and again, but here goes. IMO the "cheap" five year visa is not cheap, you mean the Elite visa, poor value for 500.000Bt, you are still treated like a criminal, 90 day reporting, and while contributing to the Thai economy all that time, you are getting nothing at the end of it.

I have already told you that you are talking rubbish, I stand by that, feel free to say I am talking rubbish if you want.

[StefanBBK]

well hard to have a discussion if you dont give reasons. thailand has provided a visa for everyone. a great retirement visa for over 50 year olds and a cheap 5 year visa for self funded under 50 year olds. hard to argue with those facts.

Been not following the whole topic, so please excuse if I repeat what may have been said before.
I would not argue with above post, just would like to mention the differences in having a visa and permanent residency. As resident you have numerous benefits, that dont come with visas. Even visa holders can be denied entry at the discretion of the immigration officer. There is no appeal process.
As resident you should not need to report to immigration frequently.

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

They allow us to live here, but only under a number of restrictions (90 days reporting, annual visa extension, sizeable amount on deposit).

Restrictions that are not really all that onerous, unless one is too challenged to do 90-day reporting online, take a couple of hours out once a year to do the extension and keep some small change on deposit. Personally, I found a great way of avoiding 90-day reporting is to pop out of the country at least twice a year.

 

4 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

There is no indication that we are welcome here by the various bureaucracies.

I too was saddened that they stopped make a parade for me whenever I ventured about my fiefdom in bahn nork... but I got over it. What do you prefer, brass band and tickertape?

 

4 minutes ago, Farang99 said:

If it were not for our families and friends this would be a pretty awkward place to live.

There's that confounded language barrier again...

[ubonjoe]

This topic just got 31 posts shorter after I removed them for bickering and baiting. Time to end it or a formal warning will be done.

[williamgeorgeallen]

1 hour ago, possum1931 said:

Read post 156, that about sums it up, I am fed up going over this time and again, but here goes. IMO the "cheap" five year visa is not cheap, you mean the Elite visa, poor value for 500.000Bt, you are still treated like a criminal, 90 day reporting, and while contributing to the Thai economy all that time, you are getting nothing at the end of it.

I have already told you that you are talking rubbish, I stand by that, feel free to say I am talking rubbish if you want.

i would never say another posters opinion is rubbish. you have your opinion and to you it is correct. we simply have a difference of opinion. i think the elite visa is good value and a reasonable option for any self funded retiree under the age of 50. we have gotten a bit off topic of course.

[NoshowJones]

20 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

i would never say another posters opinion is rubbish. you have your opinion and to you it is correct. we simply have a difference of opinion. i think the elite visa is good value and a reasonable option for any self funded retiree under the age of 50. we have gotten a bit off topic of course.

Yes, we appear to have a big difference of opinion, but I still think you are one of our better posters.

[LukKrueng]

22 hours ago, jonclark said:

 

Well then, considering Thailand has signed and ratified the UN Convention on Human Rights, You;d imagine that as Thailand is has signed and ratified 5 of the 7 Human Rights principles into National Law - Including CERD. That the level of in equality between Thais and other races would be far more equitable??

 

http://www.un.org/ga/60/elect/hrc/thailand.pdf

 

 

PS - I have PR 

I don't think that getting a PR has anything to do with human rights as on the UN resolution. No country in the world is obliged to give PR status to anyone. Some countries might see advantages in allowing new people in, others prefer to keep to their own culture and way of life.

[Maestro]

Talking about human rights, does Thailand have its own human rights law?

To what international human rights charter is Thailand a signatory?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[Sydebolle]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:57 AM, impulse said:

 

Quite a bit has changed in the 30 years since you went down that avenue.  I'd be interested in an update from someone who's actually done it successfully in the current environment.

 

Sorry, I was not specific enough; what I mentioned is what applies today. You're right - in my days it was a THB 25'000 fee, cracking some funny jokes down at the immigration in Suan Plu and that was it.

Today (from a friend of mine whose file is still in the pipeline) he provided all the paperwork, educational certificates, photographs of home and work (incl. house number and marking on which side of the bed he sleeps - no joke) and then he went for an "interview".

It was a monologue into a handheld video camera outlining (in Thai language) why he came to Thailand, what he is doing in Thailand and why he would like to stay in Thailand. Then he was asked a few questions in Thai (where does which color go in the Thai flag as well as name as war sailing vessel. Latter not really being in the standard vocabulary after being in Thailand for three years though. 

Fingerprints (all ten fingers) were taken and then he got a stamp into his passport stating "under consideration for PR" and come back in six months. Ever since (that is some two years ago) he goes back every six months just to get another rubberstamp referring to "come back in six months". It seems that the applications pile up on some bureaucratic desk like under Interior Minister Purachai some 10+ years ago. 

The fee, once he is getting it (and he will get it eventually) will be just short of B100'000 (as he is legally married to a Thai); in case of non-marriage the fee would be double, i.e. B200'000. 

Unlike European countries, Thailand is definitely more difficult to settle with PR or Thai nationality and I, for one, have to attest that Thailand has much less migration problems than Europe or North America. So a "qualified" applicant just needs patience. 

[OMGImInPattaya]

On 5/11/2559 at 4:48 AM, connda said:

I married the year that I came to Thailand, well before I understood the inflexibility of the immigration system.  Since then, it's been a learning process. Now I'm looking at this thought the lens of basic human rights.  International human rights organizations view families as "institutions to be protected", which is to say that a family, once established, should not be under the constant threat of being broken apart.  And yet, here we are. 

Maybe file a petition with the United Nations Human Rights Council or their Special Rapporteur; if that fails, there's always the International Court of Justice in the Hague.

[rimmae2]

Re ID:137 and the original question I applied in December 2012, had the interview in May 2013 and received the letter of approval in early June 2015. When I received approval as far as I am aware many people who applied in 2012 and earlier year(s) received approval about the same time. In recent years the period between applying and receiving approval has probably not been much quicker than it was for me; however I don't know for sure.

 

For details of the procedure/other issues and asking for updates on progress from people who applied in December 2013 and 2014, I recommend that you ask on the thread 'Camerata's Guide to the Permanent Residence Process'. One of the people who contributes to this thread, Arkady, may be able to give some information on status of applications which were made in 2013 and 2014.

 

I was not asked to give a monologue, but had not answer questions, which included about the subjects mentioned in the monologue, as well as other questions.

[NoshowJones]

On 11/5/2016 at 1:29 PM, Jane Dough said:

I think it is time to make PR available to people married here but not working. Retirees would fit into this. Then their pensions should be taxed when brought into the country. Thirty per cent would seem fair. 

I do not agree, some of these pensioners have been contributing to Thailands economy for years, and are paying for medical insurance and have been for years, if Thailand took 30% in tax off their pensions in return for PR, then they would need to cancel their medical insurance.

[JLCrab]

On 11/6/2016 at 7:41 PM, Maestro said:

Talking about human rights, does Thailand have its own human rights law?

To what international human rights charter is Thailand a signatory?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

The Universal Declaration of Human rights (UDHR) 

 

Thailand joined 19 DEC 1946 as "Party to the treaty by ratification, accession, or succession"

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Pages/Language.aspx?LangID=eng

 

See esp. Article 16

1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

2. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by JLCrab

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

The Universal Declaration of Human rights (UDHR) 

 

Thailand joined 19 DEC 1946 as "Party to the treaty by ratification, accession, or succession"

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Pages/Language.aspx?LangID=eng

 

I agree with the clause on family, generally, within the context of this discussion - but since this treaty/document was brought into the discussion, I think it is important to remember this part:

 

Article 29

...

3.  These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

 

So, these rights can only exist "for the purposes of the UN."  Who made the UN God (or "the universe" - if you are atheist)??

 

Although sounding vaguely familiar to parts of the the US Declaration of Independence (Jefferson borrowing heavily from Locke) when you take out the idea that our rights "Come From Our Creator" - and shall not be abridged by ANY "Man-Made Entity," the entire exercise becomes a joke.

 

Next, the interested reader should look into the personalities who formed the UN, and what other agendas they supported - culturally, ethically, etc (see "eugenics" for example).  It will come as a shock to those not familiar with the history they did not teach you in school.

[JLCrab]

Just to note that while Thailand has been a party to the UDHR since 1946:

 

The Declaration is not, in itself, a legally binding instrument.

 

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/SRHRDefenders/Pages/Declaration.aspx

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by JLCrab

[Arkady]

This is a fairly old chestnut.  My sympathies to those with Thai families, who are not in a position to apply for for PR or citizenship, but the thinking behind Thailand's PR and citizenship laws and regulations for decades has been that they only want people who can support themselves and their families through the exercise of an occupation that is needed in Thailand.  This was the thinking behind the original Immigration Act of 1927 and of the earlier Nationality Acts and little has changed today, except that it has become a lot harder to get PR which used to be almost as easy as obtaining a work permit is today. 

 

The one positive significant change that has been made is that the Nationality Act was amended in 2008 to allow foreign men married to Thais to apply for citizenship without first acquiring PR, although they still need to be working for an onshore entity in Thailand and paying Thai tax.  This was concession was made to reduce gender discrimination against the Thai wives of foreign males because foreign women married to Thais already had a faster track to citizenship. 

 

Another positive development for those who qualify, is that the current military government has forced Interior Ministry officials to expedite the application processes for PR and citizenship and approved large numbers  applications for both that had been blocked for years by previous governments with justification.

 

Unfortunately,  given the millions of foreign workers now in the country, it is most unlikely that the criteria for PR will be made any easier or that marriage to a Thai will, in and of itself, be considered a qualification for PR. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

5 minutes ago, Arkady said:

The one positive significant change that has been made is that the Nationality Act was amended in 2008 to allow foreign men married to Thais to apply for citizenship without first acquiring PR, although they still need to be working for an onshore entity in Thailand and paying Thai tax.

So not for retirees with foreign pensions then?

[Deepinthailand]

39 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

So not for retirees with foreign pensions then?

Does retirees getting  a foreign pension  pay thai taxes as stated!!!.  I know I dont

[SaintLouisBlues]

4 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

Does retirees getting  a foreign pension  pay thai taxes as stated!!!.  I know I dont

Nor are they working for an onshore entity.

[Deepinthailand]

13 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Nor are they working for an onshore entity.

That was my point. working paying taxes no problem you can apply.

Married and retired never payed taxes here in recipt of an offshore pension forget PR or Citizenship

Not really bothered about it myself could have applied when I was working but as I say never really wanted it.

[kannot]

On 11/5/2016 at 10:22 AM, williamgeorgeallen said:

 from what i have seen probably more than 80% western/thai relationships end in less 10 years. i know a few that have gone past 10 years but even those are because kids are involved. so i guess this is a fair point about what happens to permanent residents after divorce. what happens in other countries? do permanent residents keep there residency status?

married 10  years and  one  month , no  kids, 53 and 40 me /her

[williamgeorgeallen]

13 hours ago, kannot said:

married 10  years and  one  month , no  kids, 53 and 40 me /her

yes it is possible.

[Johnniey]

You should have applied for citizenship like most foreigners in other countries, you keep talking about, do.

 

Assuming you worked here, it would have been easy. If you don't work here, then it's pretty obvious why you can't get PR purely based on marrying a Thai. Think about it, any old guy could come here with little cash , marry Buriram Noi, adopting her kids and feel entitled to rights.

I've been married 29 years, lived here longer, have 4 grown up kids(my own) and know my rights. As I work here, I can get citizenship easier than any other country I know of.