phuket town immigration scam

[LammyTS1]

This is the 1st time I've heard about this rule. My landlord never asked me for a copy of my passport. I've been to immigration twice since I arrived and never been asked for this.


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[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

No, I wouldn't. But this rule is specifically for foreigners and only applies to them. Therefore it seems reasonable to make people aware of it before fining them for not complying.

 

Currently no attempt whatsoever is made to inform visitors of what they need to do.

 

 

All immigration law applies only for non Thais.. Theres no notice about 90 days.. etc etc either. 

 

I understand your annoyed.. I think its stupid and refuse to comply.. But its not up to them to explain it. 

[LivinLOS]

5 minutes ago, LammyTS1 said:

This is the 1st time I've heard about this rule. My landlord never asked me for a copy of my passport. I've been to immigration twice since I arrived and never been asked for this.
 

 

Enforcement currently varies depending on where it is.. 

 

I was reporting this when it started in chiang mai and was shot down that it was local, would go away, wasnt real, I didnt understand etc.. Now its in other provinces.. 

[stevenl]

 
Wrong Steven,
 
The tourist did nothing wrong, the violation was the fault of the house master and if anyone should be fined it would be the house master.
 
And it's not 'Notification of Residence' ... it's House Registration (by house master).
 
Seems to me that the Immigration Officer just took advantage of this novice tourist ... so I guess it was a scam.  The tourist should have just refused , recovered passport, and got her house master to sort of the registration, or prove that the registration had been made within 24 hours of check-in. If not the the house master is liable for any fine.
 
It can be a tricky problem for house masters/owner/managers as no receipt is generated for online registration. We take a screen shot and keep on file.

In theory yes, but in reality it is the foreigner who is being held responsible.

The tourist should have gone to the other queue but choose the easy way o.

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[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

All immigration law applies only for non Thais.. Theres no notice about 90 days.. etc etc either. 

 

Of course all immigration law only applies to foreigners. But the point I was replying to concerned people having knowledge of all local laws, not specific immigration rules for foreigners. The whole point of this rule is that most Thais probably dont know about it either, nor does it apply to them, nor is it even applied uniformly across the whole country.

 

And, as I pointed out, my extension of stay does specifically mention that I need to report my address every 90 days. But it doesn't mention that should also report my address using a completely different form if/when it changes, and neither does my 90-day reporting form or arrival card, yet these are the obvious places where such a specific rule could be mentioned so as to inform all foreigners about the requirement.

[eisfeld]

99.99% of tourists are not aware of this reporting requirement. How could they? Nobody tells them about it, it's not written on the arrival card or on signs on the airport etc. Imagine now if they'd start enforcing this law by fining everyone when leaving the country 2000 THB. What a glorious way to end a holiday with a nice middlefinger.

[LivinginKata]

30 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

99.99% of tourists are not aware of this reporting requirement. How could they? Nobody tells them about it, it's not written on the arrival card or on signs on the airport etc. Imagine now if they'd start enforcing this law by fining everyone when leaving the country 2000 THB. What a glorious way to end a holiday with a nice middlefinger.

 

Sigh Sigh ... say again. It's not the visitor's problem. It's the place of lodging's problem.  It's only when the visitor needs some sort of service from Immigration, like an extension, that the officer swoops in with a scam to put money in his/her pocket.

 

How hard would it be for the Immigration data base to input foreign arrivals in the data base (and they do that, I know cos I can see that when we register guests)  and auto generated cross check 2 or 3 days later to see if that person has been registered. There is big legit fine money to be made by Immigration if they would just make the minimum effort.  But the system is so screwed up and the individual just wants to make own money - same same in every gov department ... TIT

 

 

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, LivinginKata said:

 

Sigh Sigh ... say again. It's not the visitor's problem. It's the place of lodging's problem.  It's only when the visitor needs some sort of service from Immigration, like an extension, that the officer swoops in with a scam to put money in his/her pocket.

 

How hard would it be for the Immigration data base to input foreign arrivals in the data base (and they do that, I know cos I can see that when we register guests)  and auto generated cross check 2 or 3 days later to see if that person has been registered. There is big legit fine money to be made by Immigration if they would just make the minimum effort.  But the system is so screwed up and the individual just wants to make own money - same same in every gov department ... TIT

 

 

 

Sure it's not the visitors problem? They get fined when going to immigration so apparently it is. Nothing stops them from fining when leaving the country. From what I've understood so far, the visitor can completely officially (with receipt) be fined up to 2000 THB.

[arithai12]

16 hours ago, KarenBravo said:

 

Not here in Phuket. I talked to Immigration in Phuket Town and in Patong.

When my missus and I went to Immigration to register the address, they told the missus that as it was a private house and that I lived there, then there was no need to re-register if I left the country to work and then came back to Phuket.

I have left Thailand and come back many times. I have now had two extensions of stay and I had no problems. So far, I have only registered my address once.

 

Anything to do with ANY government department cannot be split conveniently into "Not correct" and "Correct".

Depends on location, the person you ask and interpretation, but, I would have thought you would know that by now......

I agree with you that sometimes interpretation is according to place and location. And I agree also that it's quite ok, as I already wrote, not to bother in most cases. But your original post to which I had replied gave the impression that the law does not require you to do anything if you leave and re-enter the country. That is what I called "not correct", because the law states that you need to notify (not re-register) your residence again. The fact that some one gets lucky in one place with one officer doesn't guarantee that the next person will have the same, so I wanted to clarify that.

 

Whether the officer you asked was talking about registration or update I cannot know (re-registration is indeed not required). I also don't know when you got the extensions you mentioned, but if they were a few months ago the story might be different now because as we know the TM30 law has been in place for many years but never applied to the letter as it is being done recently.

 

In the past few years I must have left and returned to Thailand fifty times, I never had a clue about TM30 and never had a problem with my extensions. A couple of months ago my wife got stung because she needed a document from immigration which involved our residence, and they found out that we had never registered. So yes, one can cruise under the impression that something is "not required" but it doesn't mean that it's correct.

[jacko45k]

On 13/12/2016 at 2:57 PM, stevenl said:

So the scam is she is fined for a violation that should cost her more than she is charged.

 

Did I understand this correct?

I have never had such a thing, ' Receipt of Notification' (confirming address in Thailand) slip', are all the hotels, guest houses and those renting out condos required to issue this? Should every single tourist and Expat in Thailand have one in their passport? Would it be their fault that they forgot to ask for one if they are randomly stopped and checked on the streets of Phuket and of course other locations? Why is the owner of the address not pursued, and did Phuket immigration check to see if the hotel/condo owner has actually registered the tourist?

 

I have just checked the requirement for an extension of a tourist visa and this was not listed.

 

Money making scam aimed at tourists and foreigners, welcome to Thailand.

Edited December 14, 2016 by jacko45k

[LivinLOS]

They have tried to explain it.. 

I was posting these back in 2015.. 

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Sure it's not the visitors problem? They get fined when going to immigration so apparently it is. Nothing stops them from fining when leaving the country. From what I've understood so far, the visitor can completely officially (with receipt) be fined up to 2000 THB.

 

Fining everyone on the way out of the country would create an incident that would get into foreign press.   As others have pointed out (to me, in another thread), this is not "really" the fault of the visitor and they should not be liable for the fine. 

 

When you go into an Imm-office, you want something from them, and if you expect to get that something, you must do everything they ask or pay (directly or through an agent) for an "exception."  Immigration is not "obliged" to do anything for you (a foreigner), as might be expected from "public servants" in other countries - often required by law and policy to treat everyone the same and follow a consistent set of procedures at all offices in the country. 

 

Our objections to this are not relevant, except to the extent that our attitudes affect our chances of getting the "favor" we are requesting.  If all the immigration rules were known, clear and consistent, this board would not be necessary.

[elviajero]

23 hours ago, eisfeld said:

99.99% of tourists are not aware of this reporting requirement. How could they? Nobody tells them about it, it's not written on the arrival card or on signs on the airport etc. Imagine now if they'd start enforcing this law by fining everyone when leaving the country 2000 THB. What a glorious way to end a holiday with a nice middlefinger.

The Immigration Act is published on the Immigration website. If someone lives in a foreign country it's not a bad idea to find out what the laws are. The main problem is that the enforcement varies. They should standardize exactly which laws they want people to comply with at every office.

[thedemon]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The Immigration Act is published on the Immigration website. If someone lives in a foreign country it's not a bad idea to find out what the laws are. The main problem is that the enforcement varies. They should standardize exactly which laws they want people to comply with at every office.

 

The immigration regulation being discussed in this thread pertains to the host not the visitor.

 

You are saying that visitors should check those laws? Why would they?

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, thedemon said:

The immigration regulation being discussed in this thread pertains to the host not the visitor.

 

You are saying that visitors should check those laws? Why would they?

To avoid getting caught with fines for breaking the laws that the foreign country has!

 

The majority of typical tourists here on holiday don't (in most cases) need to be concerned with the reporting laws. Visitors living here should, IMO, find out what the laws are, and if they don't they can't complain when they get caught out. 

 

[ubonjoe]

15 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The Immigration Act is published on the Immigration website.

Not unless you do a search for it or have an old link that was posted.

Look for it on  http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php or http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php

 

[thedemon]

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

To avoid getting caught with fines for breaking the laws that the foreign country has!

 

The majority of typical tourists here on holiday don't (in most cases) need to be concerned with the reporting laws. Visitors living here should, IMO, find out what the laws are, and if they don't they can't complain when they get caught out. 

 

 

The visitor hasn't broken any law. Don't you get that?

[thetruth revealer]

9 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not unless you do a search for it or have an old link that was posted.

Look for it on  http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php or http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php

 

Im sure many would agree that Thai IMM could easely inform every incoming traveller what their duties are , and what consequences if not complied, with a simple Flyer at arrival when stamped in.  But,for some reason its not happening. Obviously its not in  Thai IMM Interest to avoid such incidents nor do they apply Law everywhere the same way .

 

Transparency is NOT given enough .

 

 

But hey TIT ....

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2016 by thetruth revealer

[elviajero]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not unless you do a search for it or have an old link that was posted.

Look for it on  http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php or http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php

 

The link has been removed.

"Your selection is not available for now. Please try again later."

 

And the FAQ's link is broken too.

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The link has been removed.

"Your selection is not available for now. Please try again later."

 

And the FAQ's link is broken too.

Been that way for a long time now (years in fact)

I have it on my computer. You can download it here. Immigration Act B.E. 2522, English translation That can be found here. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/3139-useful-immigration-information-visa-descriptions/#comment-2613047

 

 

[bodymassagemyfriend]

On 13/12/2016 at 8:57 AM, stevenl said:

So the scam is she is fined for a violation that should cost her more than she is charged.

 

Did I understand this correct?

In many lawfull country your are supposed to be innocent by default. Its not because you dont have a receipt that you dont actually stay there and i have never been asked about this before. You just had to write an adress on the white and blue paper, the same that visa run operator fill with fake address.

[elviajero]

11 minutes ago, thedemon said:

The visitor hasn't broken any law. Don't you get that?

How do you know from the information given? Reporting where you are going to stay on the TM.6 arrival card doesn't count as a report.

 

Someone should have reported (TM.30) that this person was living at the address she's staying at. If she is considered the 'Possessor' of the property then she, along with the owner or house-master, would be responsible. And if no one reported she could be fined for breaking the law.

[elviajero]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Been that way for a long time now (years in fact)

I have it on my computer. You can download it here. Immigration Act B.E. 2522, English translation

Thanks. I have the immigration act link and a hard copy of the act.

 

The FAQ's on http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php still works.

 

The website is and always has been a mess!

[thedemon]

7 minutes ago, elviajero said:

How do you know from the information given? Reporting where you are going to stay on the TM.6 arrival card doesn't count as a report.

 

Someone should have reported (TM.30) that this person was living at the address she's staying at. If she is considered the 'Possessor' of the property then she, along with the owner or house-master, would be responsible. And if no one reported she could be fined for breaking the law.

 

No, she (the visitor) has not broken any law because she is under no obligation to report anything.

 

This antiquated and generally unenforceable law does require the householder to report. However given that the maximum penalty is a fine and the majority of householders are Thai and therefore can't be intimidated by Thai immigration into complying.

 

So due to their impotence these immigration officers have resorted to demanding that the visitor provide proof of compliance by the householder. Otherwise the visitor won't get the extension they are applying for, despite not breaking any rules themselves.

 

It's just low level extortion by government officials, nothing new or anything to get your tits in a tangle over. But lets call it what it is. I can't see why you want to defend their actions.

[eisfeld]

Both the visitor AND the host have to report the residence of the foreigner as far as I can understand from the immigration act. The host to immigration and the visitor to the police station.

 

Quote

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the

following :

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty

– four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not

located the same area with the former police stations , such alien must notify the police official of the

police station for that area within twenty – four hours from the time of arrival.

 

Quote

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager

where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the

competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or

hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

 

elviajero: as you see, this applies also to tourists on a short visit. They are breaking the law and if they want to extend their stay a bit then they might get fined. Should every tourist read the Immigration Act before visiting? Should they all attend to the local police office after arrival? I'm sure the local police officers would have a lot of fun with hundreds of tourists reporting to them every day at each station :)

 

Heck according to the law I'd have to report to police when going to BKK and staying two nights... and then again when coming back!

[elviajero]

18 minutes ago, thedemon said:

 

No, she (the visitor) has not broken any law because she is under no obligation to report anything.

 

This antiquated and generally unenforceable law does require the householder to report. However given that the maximum penalty is a fine and the majority of householders are Thai and therefore can't be intimidated by Thai immigration into complying.

 

So due to their impotence these immigration officers have resorted to demanding that the visitor provide proof of compliance by the householder. Otherwise the visitor won't get the extension they are applying for, despite not breaking any rules themselves.

 

It's just low level extortion by government officials, nothing new or anything to get your tits in a tangle over. But lets call it what it is. I can't see why you want to defend their actions.

If she (the visitor) is also considered the 'possessor' she does have an obligation to report.

 

If by householder you mean head of household (house-master named in the Tabien Baan) they do have a requirement to report. A foreigner cannot be the house-master, but they can be an owner or possessor. The law doesn't specify that only Thai owners or possessors must report.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. 

 

Most offices seem to accept a TM.30 report from the owner or house-master or possessor when the foreigner first moves in (section 38). However, it also seems that some want a TM.30 when a foreigner applies for an extension, and in these cases insist thats it's from the owner. I have to provide a TM.30 for every yearly extension of stay. If a TM.30 isn't on file or the person can't produce a receipt they are fining, in most cases, the owner, but can go after the foreigner if they are the owner or possessor.

 

I am not defending anything. All I said was that it's a good idea to know the laws/rules so you don't get caught out.

 

I don't agree with a lot of immigration practices, but if a law is broken the IO has every right to fine, and it's not extortion or corruption if they impose the correct fine.

[elviajero]

18 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

Both the visitor AND the host have to report the residence of the foreigner as far as I can understand from the immigration act. The host to immigration and the visitor to the police station.

 

elviajero: as you see, this applies also to tourists on a short visit. They are breaking the law and if they want to extend their stay a bit then they might get fined. Should every tourist read the Immigration Act before visiting? Should they all attend to the local police office after arrival? I'm sure the local police officers would have a lot of fun with hundreds of tourists reporting to them every day at each station :)

 

Heck according to the law I'd have to report to police when going to BKK and staying two nights... and then again when coming back!

Yes, but section 37.3 is only, as a rule, enforced on expats with annual extensions of stay.

 

Sections 37. 2, 3 and 4 rarely get enforced and are unenforceable for tourists.

 

A foreigner is only likely to get fined under section 38 if they are somehow considered the possessor of the property. i.e. renting. 

[JetsetBkk]

This thread has become very silly.  Very few tourists are going to read up on Thai immigration law because they decide to stay a little longer. What they will think is "I'll go to Immigration and ask them what I must do." Silly tourists!

 

So what these tourists need is a web site, preferably written in English, that shows all the requirements for different types of visas and how to extend them.

 

I'm sure there must be one like that, but I haven't been able to find it.

 

[thetruth revealer]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

If she (the visitor) is also considered the 'possessor' she does have an obligation to report.

 

If by householder you mean head of household (house-master named in the Tabien Baan) they do have a requirement to report. A foreigner cannot be the house-master, but they can be an owner or possessor. The law doesn't specify that only Thai owners or possessors must report.

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. 

 

Most offices seem to accept a TM.30 report from the owner or house-master or possessor when the foreigner first moves in (section 38). However, it also seems that some want a TM.30 when a foreigner applies for an extension, and in these cases insist thats it's from the owner. I have to provide a TM.30 for every yearly extension of stay. If a TM.30 isn't on file or the person can't produce a receipt they are fining, in most cases, the owner, but can go after the foreigner if they are the owner or possessor.

 

I am not defending anything. All I said was that it's a good idea to know the laws/rules so you don't get caught out.

 

I don't agree with a lot of immigration practices, but if a law is broken the IO has every right to fine, and it's not extortion or corruption if they impose the correct fine.

Correct would be to fine the corresponding responsable Person, instead blame the Foreigner if they cant make the Owner pay said fine. Any other practice isnt consequent and unfair towards us.

TIT

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, elviajero said:

Someone should have reported (TM.30) that this person was living at the address she's staying at. If she is considered the 'Possessor' of the property then she, along with the owner or house-master, would be responsible. And if no one reported she could be fined for breaking the law.

 

The way I remember it, the OP has posted in this topic that the owner of the residence where her friend is staying duly report her arrival to immigration.