Ford scraps Mexico plant following Trump criticism

[ilostmypassword]

7 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

Well Obama had his own style and now there is another incoming president. You act like the announcement from ford is bad news.

 

It isn''t a question of whether it's good news or bad news. The question is what has it got to do with Donald Trump.  If Donald Trump was President when Apple created the Iphone, would you be ok with him claiming credit for that, too?

And it's not just a matter of style. It's about a president who can be easily manipulated by praise and who has a desperate need for flattery.

Edited January 4, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[craigt3365]

8 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

Well Obama had his own style and now there is another incoming president. You act like the announcement from ford is bad news.

 

The announcement from Ford is good, and according to the CEO, was done due to an improving economy (thanks to Obama) and a vision of a better environment in the future for businesses (thanks to Trump if it actually happens).  The CEO said the tweet from Trump did not impact their decision.

 

If you read reports about tariffs, you'll see the end result is not necessarily good.  Yes, some jobs were saved, say, in the tire industry, but many were lost elsewhere due to increased costs and repercussions from the other country.  Trade wars help nobody.

[ilostmypassword]

8 hours ago, anotheruser said:

 

The auto unions were corrupt and wanted something like $80,000 a year after benefits for a simple bolt monkey. There is no way any company can afford unions like that and remain competitive. 

 

The unions basically bankrupted the company that fed them.

Yes, it was the evil unions that caused the massive bankruptcy in 2009 and not the financial crisis.  And your $80,000 per year figure is, of course, not true. It was inventd by the mother of all lie factories, The Heritage Foundation.

And your charge that the auto unions were corrupt? Do you have some basis in fact for that?

 I will give you credit for packing a lot of falsehood into 2 short sentences.  

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/12/auto-worker-salaries/

Edited January 5, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[geriatrickid]

If the Mexicans have jobs, won't they stay in Mexico?

Doesn't the Mexico plant sell to the world market and not just the USA?

Can't the argument be made in Mexico that if US manufacturers want to sell in Mexico, that they should manufacture in Mexico?

The US market isn't big enough to purchase the output of all the US auto manufacturers and the USA may find itself losing market share when the foreigners follow the US lead and buy local only.

[craigt3365]

28 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Yes, it was the evil unions that caused the massive bankruptcy in 2009 and not the financial crisis.  And your $80,000 per year figure is, of course, not true. It was inventd by the mother of all lie factories, The Heritage Foundation.

And your charge that the auto unions were corrupt? Do you have some basis in fact for that?

 I will give you credit for packing a lot of falsehood into 2 short sentences.  

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/12/auto-worker-salaries/

My cousin works for Ford.  What's killing them is benefits to retired employees.  Specifically, health care.  Over the years, they've gotten rid of this.  No more free health care and benefits when you retire.  You get back what you pay in.  And when you retire, you pay a monthly fee for health care.  It's not longer free and unlimited.

 

So in a way, anotheruser is correct.  The greedy unions did cause major financial problems in the auto industry and forced companies to move to other countries.  Massive loss of jobs.

 

My family is from Detroit and I lived in Michigan for some time.  Many friends and relatives are in the auto industry there, still.  Ford, GM, etc, are massively bloated.  And as you know, for a long time, not competitive.  Lousy products.  Even my cousin, now 30 years with Ford, a few years ago told me not to buy a Ford unless it was a truck.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

My cousin works for Ford.  What's killing them is benefits to retired employees.  Specifically, health care.  Over the years, they've gotten rid of this.  No more free health care and benefits when you retire.  You get back what you pay in.  And when you retire, you pay a monthly fee for health care.  It's not longer free and unlimited.

 

So in a way, anotheruser is correct.  The greedy unions did cause major financial problems in the auto industry and forced companies to move to other countries.  Massive loss of jobs.

 

My family is from Detroit and I lived in Michigan for some time.  Many friends and relatives are in the auto industry there, still.  Ford, GM, etc, are massively bloated.  And as you know, for a long time, not competitive.  Lousy products.  Even my cousin, now 30 years with Ford, a few years ago told me not to buy a Ford unless it was a truck.

First of all, anotheruser claimed auto workers were paid $80 per hour including benefits.  This is a lie. 

And if Ford and GM are so massively bloated, why are they so massively profitable.  

As for benefits to retired employees. Here's a quote from the factcheck.org article I provided a link to

The Ford chart also estimates that, as a result of a historic 2007 labor agreement with the UAW, the legacy costs of the U.S. automakers are expected to fall – to about $3 per hour. That’s because the deal calls for a new voluntary employee beneficiary association (or VEBA), a seldom-used 100-year-old tax loophole. A VEBA is a tax-exempt trust that can be used to fund almost any sort of employee benefit, but they are most commonly used to pay for health care expenses.

[craigt3365]

If you add in everything, workers cost the auto industry $80/hour.  I believe from your article the direct wage is $29.  Lots of indirect costs to support a worker.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

If you add in everything, workers cost the auto industry $80/hour.  I believe from your article the direct wage is $29.  Lots of indirect costs to support a worker.

So, you actually haven't read the fact check  article, have you?  No, it's not $80 per hour. And "I believe" isn't the kind of phrase that makes others likely to.

[craigt3365]

28 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

So, you actually haven't read the fact check  article, have you?  No, it's not $80 per hour. And "I believe" isn't the kind of phrase that makes others likely to.

Yes, I read the article.  It's actually $70 they said.  I thought that, but accidentally typed in $80.  From your link:

Quote

 

So how does that climb to more than $70? Add in benefits: life insurance, health care, pension and so on. But not just the benefits that the current workers actually receive – after all, it’s pretty rare for the value of a benefits package to add up to more than wages paid, even with a really, really good health plan in place. What’s causing the number to balloon is the cost of providing benefits to tens of thousands of retired auto workers and their surviving spouses.

 

The automakers arrived at the $70+ figure by adding up all the costs associated with providing wages and benefits to current and retired workers and dividing the total by the number of hours worked by current employees.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Yes, I read the article.  It's actually $70 they said.  I thought that, but accidentally typed in $80.  From your link:

 

And did you read further about VEBA and how most of that cost is no longer being carried by the automakers?

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And did you read further about VEBA and how most of that cost is no longer being carried by the automakers?

One of the links in that thread show the cost is $73.  Did you read that one?

[Rhys]

Thailand your days are numbered, Japan will follow in central Thailand....unless you....  ngahh they will leave...

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, Grubster said:

I believe most parts are made overseas for the big three US auto manufacturers, they are mostly assembled in the US and Canada. Those parts need to be made in the US and lets see if Trump gets on that wagon. I like what he says on this issue, but I will watch what he does.

This is the same Trump that bought and imported cheap 'dumped' Chinese steel to build his enterprise in Las Vegas but will forbid others from doing similar deals?

 

This is the same Trump that uses a tax loophole to write-off his bad investments in perpetuity but will forbid others from doing the same?

 

This is the same Trump that still hasn't disclosed his tax returns but probably won't cut the same slack for the regular guy?

 

This is the same Trump who now has a little over 14 days to divest himself of all the personal business interests that could compromise the integrity and impartiality of the office of POTUS.

 

All mouth tweets and trousers IMHO.

[Grubster]

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

This is the same Trump that bought and imported cheap 'dumped' Chinese steel to build his enterprise in Las Vegas but will forbid others from doing similar deals?

 

This is the same Trump that uses a tax loophole to write-off his bad investments in perpetuity but will forbid others from doing the same?

 

This is the same Trump that still hasn't disclosed his tax returns but probably won't cut the same slack for the regular guy?

 

This is the same Trump who now has a little over 14 days to divest himself of all the personal business interests that could compromise the integrity and impartiality of the office of POTUS.

 

All mouth tweets and trousers IMHO.

Yes this is the same Guy. Would you expect a businessman to not take advantage of every law that he could? Do you think anybody could compete if they didn't. Did you not hear his response to Hillary when she asked about his taking advantage of loopholes that were legislated while she was a senator? Who would know better how crooked the US congress is than a guy that has used them to make his fortunes? Hasn't he stated that the Chinese are going to have to pay tariffs to send their stuff here? Are you against that? Hillary was. I hope he does what he says he will, but I'm not going to hold my breath as he has to take on the US congress on both sides of the isle.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/4/2017 at 7:27 PM, Berkshire said:

I read another article about this very story which indicated in short, Ford was going to do what they had planned to do all along.  In other words, Trump played no role in their decision.  But the Ford CEO is a smart business man.  He knows that by complementing Trump (“We’re also encouraged by the pro-growth policies that President-elect Trump...."), they will remove themselves as targets for Trump's tweeting rage.  He knows that one negative tweet from Trump could mean millions in market cap for the company's stock price in the short term.  So just like world leaders, CEOs are finding out that if they publicly kiss-up to Trump, they would never be attacked.  In private, they can do whatever they darn please.  I just wonder how long this facade will go on. 

I wouldn't normally spell check, but did you mean compliment Trump? Complement means something else entirely.

 

This could be looked on as good news, except that no doubt robotics will be in the long term plan to eliminate most human workers altogether.

Once all the big companies have replaced their humans with machines, I wonder who they think will be buying their products?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 1/5/2017 at 8:25 AM, BlindMagician said:

Will all US Cos start relocating to plants back to the US? Mass exodus from Thailand? That would be fun to watch the resulting implosion.

Why would they? The 35% tariff will only be imposed on goods entering the US. Presumably goods made in Thailand are being sold elsewhere.

[BlindMagician]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Why would they? The 35% tariff will only be imposed on goods entering the US. Presumably goods made in Thailand are being sold elsewhere.

You presume wrong. Goods made in Thailand are sold all over the world including the US. 35% is quite a killer incentive don't you think.

Isn't it Drumpf stated intention to bring us owned manufacturing back onto US shores? If he follows through, he'll ramp up the incentives to achieve that.

That's why.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, BlindMagician said:

You presume wrong. Goods made in Thailand are sold all over the world including the US. 35% is quite a killer incentive don't you think.

Isn't it Drumpf stated intention to bring us owned manufacturing back onto US shores? If he follows through, he'll ramp up the incentives to achieve that.

That's why.

Hmmmm. You appear to be saying what I meant.

Far as I know the 35% will only apply to goods brought into the US by US companies that left to US to use cheap labour elsewhere. Not all companies that export to the US from LOS are US owned, so the tax wouldn't apply to them, and as I read it, it would only apply to US companies that leave from after he made the policy. If that is correct, a US owned company in Thailand that had set up in LOS prior to the policy would not be affected.

I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will tell me, but as he hasn't even passed the regulation, it would be difficult to prove that, till he does.

[Berkshire]

51 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I wouldn't normally spell check, but did you mean compliment Trump? Complement means something else entirely.

 

This could be looked on as good news, except that no doubt robotics will be in the long term plan to eliminate most human workers altogether.

Once all the big companies have replaced their humans with machines, I wonder who they think will be buying their products?

 

You are correct, it's "compliment."  But yes, the cause(s) of manufacturing jobs leaving the US over the past decades has a whole lot more to do with things other than trade agreements.  And there's really no way they're coming back unless the US government interferes with the free market....which seems to be what Mr. Trump is trying to do.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, Grubster said:

Yes this is the same Guy. Would you expect a businessman to not take advantage of every law that he could? Do you think anybody could compete if they didn't. Did you not hear his response to Hillary when she asked about his taking advantage of loopholes that were legislated while she was a senator? Who would know better how crooked the US congress is than a guy that has used them to make his fortunes? Hasn't he stated that the Chinese are going to have to pay tariffs to send their stuff here? Are you against that? Hillary was. I hope he does what he says he will, but I'm not going to hold my breath as he has to take on the US congress on both sides of the isle.

 

I can see where any 'successful businessman' would have a legion of corporate attorneys to make sure they wring the maximum out of their legal entitlements. Most people who are not 'successful businessmen' (and that is the huge preponderance of the US voting public) are fairly disenchanted that corporations appear to get a free pass on taxation. But you all seem to have missed that Trump has already distanced himself from any early talk of reform or allusion of tighter corporate governance. It's as if the bright lights of that preposterous "Make America Great Again" posturing makes it truly hard to see the murky details behind the razzmatazz. I think it's called smoke and mirrors. I mean Cortez bought a whole empire with shiny beads and trinkets so why not give it a shot?

 

Inexplicably (not really) you brought up Hillary so I won't indulge you further in your nonsense but make darn sure you are familiar with the term 'hornswaggled' as you watch him and his acolytes dancing in Congress, OK?

Edited January 6, 2017 by NanLaew
sp

[maewang99]

thank you for appreciating what I did for you.

by the way, Ford just threw in that stuff about the car market, their decision had nothing to do with small cars being unpopular again for some reason. 

they did it for ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for no reason than that I am Great!!!!

ooops. I mean my newest personal surrogate hero is. yes!!!!

can we all just get along? and respect Donald Trump, remember I'm.... I mean He's gonna be my (our) new president of the USA... so respect him..


......as for that *&*#*&*##&* Obama socialist Russian loving (not) I mean 'commie'.... I beat him so badly... I mean Trump beat him so badly that he don't know what to do. 

Love!

Trump.


        

Edited January 6, 2017 by maewang99

[Rimmer]

A post has been removed, if you wish your post to remain up please use politicians correct names not some derogatory made up name, thank you

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

 

You are correct, it's "compliment."  But yes, the cause(s) of manufacturing jobs leaving the US over the past decades has a whole lot more to do with things other than trade agreements.  And there's really no way they're coming back unless the US government interferes with the free market....which seems to be what Mr. Trump is trying to do.

Hmmmm. IMO there is no such thing as the 'free market". I wouldn't want there to be one as it would destroy society.

If Trump interferes and saves jobs in the US, then he is doing his job, which is to look after American citizens.

[Berkshire]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hmmmm. IMO there is no such thing as the 'free market". I wouldn't want there to be one as it would destroy society.

If Trump interferes and saves jobs in the US, then he is doing his job, which is to look after American citizens.

 

Free market as opposed to a socialist one.  Let the free market decide, not the government.  Jobs disappear for a reason.  For instance, there are much fewer Americans working in agriculture now than 100 years ago.  Yet, the American agricultural industry is much more productive now than it was.  Does Trump want to roll back the clock and force the hiring of more workers?  Well of course not.  The same can be said for manufacturing.  If America can't make shoes as efficiently as, say, Vietnam, then America shouldn't be making shoes.  That's what I mean by "free market."  And then there's the issue of unintended consequences.  If a Trump Administration decides to help out the coal, oil, and natural gas industries, it's going to hurt the alternative energy sector, such as solar, wind, fuel cells, etc.  The government can have a strategic vision that aims at, for example, protecting the environment.  But just "saving jobs" can't be the only objective. 

[Grubster]

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

I can see where any 'successful businessman' would have a legion of corporate attorneys to make sure they wring the maximum out of their legal entitlements. Most people who are not 'successful businessmen' (and that is the huge preponderance of the US voting public) are fairly disenchanted that corporations appear to get a free pass on taxation. But you all seem to have missed that Trump has already distanced himself from any early talk of reform or allusion of tighter corporate governance. It's as if the bright lights of that preposterous "Make America Great Again" posturing makes it truly hard to see the murky details behind the razzmatazz. I think it's called smoke and mirrors. I mean Cortez bought a whole empire with shiny beads and trinkets so why not give it a shot?

 

Inexplicably (not really) you brought up Hillary so I won't indulge you further in your nonsense but make darn sure you are familiar with the term 'hornswaggled' as you watch him and his acolytes dancing in Congress, OK?

Nonsense

[Opl]

Ford to shift Focus production to China in 2019

" While Ford and its Chinese joint-ventures produce vehicles in China, this will mark the first time a Chinese-made Ford vehicle is imported to the U.S. from those operations. Moving Focus production to China will save Ford $1 billion compared to the original plan to build that new facility in Mexico, according to Ford. The company saved $500 million by axing plans to build the plant, and the move to China will save another $500 million, the company said in a statement. "

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2017/06/20/ford-moving-production-focus-china-wayne-michigan/103032080/

[Berkshire]

2 minutes ago, Opl said:

Ford to shift Focus production to China in 2019

" While Ford and its Chinese joint-ventures produce vehicles in China, this will mark the first time a Chinese-made Ford vehicle is imported to the U.S. from those operations. Moving Focus production to China will save Ford $1 billion compared to the original plan to build that new facility in Mexico, according to Ford. The company saved $500 million by axing plans to build the plant, and the move to China will save another $500 million, the company said in a statement. "

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2017/06/20/ford-moving-production-focus-china-wayne-michigan/103032080/

Yes, I can see how Trump is making China....eh, America....great again!

[selftaopath]

See above.

Edited June 21, 2017 by selftaopath
Information already mentioned.