Racism, anger and why dual pricing makes sense to Thai people

[Fairynuff]

25 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

My self respect leads me to paying the price, after all it is not much money, I couldn't respect myself if I had to choose the price of a few beers over supporting the national parks.

I rest my case!!

[nickmondo]

its very simple.  you just find the places that do not dual price and only use them.  its not rocket science.  

[raphoedon]

The most blatant two price system I have seen was a a big out door venue that had a really impressive elephant show, I don't agree with using these magnificent creatures in this way but the battle dress was amazing, a crocodile show etc etc.

As we approached the payment windows there was a poor handicapped man employed to guide us away from the Thai only window.

My friends Thai wife gave us no guidance or support,  she buggered off to the non farang window to buy a ticket for her and her husband , a saving for her but ¥*$k you!

This backfired on her when we went to the elephant battle,  we were guded to the center stand which had padded seats and an abundance of fans with spray mist, she, despite her complaint,  was denied entry to this area until she upgraded the ticket.

Farang 1 sneaky thai lady 0

[digibum]

1 minute ago, cyberfarang said:

Maybe tourist numbers have increased over the years but the official tourist figures do not identify tourists by race and nationalities. Even Thais holidaying in other Thai regions can be counted in as tourists. This means that not all tourists will fall under the duel pricing policies and be charged more solely on racial appearance. A person of south east Asian appearance is more likely to be charged at the Thai going rates that also applies to westerners of south east Asian origins. The duel pricing policy is based on racial profiling, if you`re a white European you are going to pay more and logic states that this must make Farlangs think twice about holidaying in Thailand for a second time, therefore it has an affect on tourism.

 

We used to have a joke some time ago. The Thais idea of a perfect tourist is a elderly American who flies to Thailand, steps outside the airport, gives the first Thai person he encounters 30000 baht, steps straight back onto the plane, arrives home and tells all his mates what a great time he had. The Thais have got greedy regarding foreigners visiting their country and are at risk of killing the golden goose. This makes interesting reading:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tourism-goldenweek-thailand-idUSKCN1270Q3

 

In the words of Donald Trump:   "Wrong!"

 

The official tourist numbers traditionally indicate the number of foreign arrivals at boarders.  So, no, local Thais would not impact those numbers.  

 

TAT has numbers for both foreign and domestic tourism.  

 

And foreign arrivals has been increasing.  However, they're mostly Chinese and Indians as Thailand has shifted towards a more volume tourism model.  

 

So, with the stuff that is just blatantly false out of the way, how many farang tourists do you think know they are getting dual pricing?  Given that most first time tourists can't read Thai, I'm guessing that number is very low.  

 

But more importantly, aren't there a whole plethora of other bad experiences that tourists have that would be far more likely to keep them from returning?  Are you really expecting people to believe that some poor Italian gets home after two weeks in Thailand and finds out on the internet that Thais only pay 40 baht at the Grand Palace and he paid 400 baht and he's like, "NEVER AGAIN!!!!  I will never go back to Thailand"?  

 

Chances are, he spent a good chunk of his trip in a drunken haze with brief memories of girls he met and some vague recollection of getting into a tuk-tuk and buying $1500 worth of gems that turned out to be worthless.  

 

And even that might not keep him from coming back :-)

 

Point being is that Thailand rips people off at every turn.  There's a half decent chance you can't make it from the airport to your hotel without getting ripped off by the taxi driver.  

 

Why would dual pricing be the thing that pushes people over the edge to never return?  

 

The people that get angry about dual pricing almost always seem to be expats and broke frequent visitors.  

 

 

[Sydebolle]

I wonder what would happen if a non-Thai vendor would announce different prices in favour of non-Thais in both Thai and English: 

I.e. American Breakfast:
Thais THB 300
Foreigners THB 80

All hell would go lose ;-) 

[maxpower]

6 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

I wonder what would happen if a non-Thai vendor would announce different prices in favour of non-Thais in both Thai and English: 

I.e. American Breakfast:
Thais THB 300
Foreigners THB 80

All hell would go lose ;-) 

 

Your post is being analysed by TV keyboard warriors - please stand by.

[baansgr]

19 hours ago, laislica said:

Cuba had an official (but very unpopular) dual pricing system and their new leader is about to remove it.

In 1969 I was working in Penang and I saw several prices offered and it depended who was the seller and who was the buyer.

Best price was Chinese to Chinese, then Chinese to a westerner, then Chinese to Indian and finally Chinese to Malay.

If it was a Malay or Indian seller, then they had their own favorites.

I wonder if it's still the same?

At the end of the day, IMHO, the seller wants to get the best return from a sale.

He has a price that the locals will bear and he has to charge that or less or sell nothing.

He sees the foreigner as someone who is a millionaire for their holiday, has money to burn and even appears to enjoy burning it.

So why not try to get more?

Sure it's pure greed but if there are enough stupid foreigners who just pay up, this becomes a new market value as far as the seller is concerned.

 

When I retired to Spain from the UK in 2000, I gave tips to the bars and restaurants.

That is until Spanish friends pointed out that the Spanish people were not tipping like me.

That I was effectively telling the bar owner that he should change more.......

 

When I came to Thailand about 5 years ago, I met an American.

He said that "You Brits have stuffed it all up for the rest of us"!!

He went on to say that we were happy to buy our g/f or wife a house.

So much so, that it has become the currency of a relationship.

No  house, no relationship and they will keep fishing until they find one.

 

I suppose that this is a kind of dual pricing?

 

Cuba never had dual pricing. The particulares system similar to rationing in the U.K. meant items could be purchased cheaper with a monthly coupon allowance. Befor the Greenback was banned 3 currencies existed, $US $Convertible and Cuban Peso but never dual pricing per se as in Thailand.

[ozmeldo]

The only time this should matter to us farang is in the national parks which I often frequent. Even married, O visa and WP they don't care. Luckily, both my favorite NP give me a huge discount. 

 

Everything else you agree on a price or walk, who cares. This is such a non issue.

 

As for the tourists, hope they charge them triple.

[ianf]

Here's an interesting one: If you are a racing cyclist you have to get your licence from the country in which you live. Sadly, the Thai Cycling Association (TCA) want to charge foreigners 10 x the price of the same licence, produced in the same way and serving the same purpose as the Thais pay. I complained to the UCI who are the international standard licensing authority for racing licences. The TCA is signatory to international sporting agreements which cover such things as equality, fairness, racism and so on. My complaint to the UCI was only listened to once  had engaged a lawyer to reinforce the fact that the TCA was in breach of their covenants. Now the TCA allow ME to have the licence at the Thai price but other farangs still pay the unfair and unconstitutional 'farang' price/ I was told by a senior coach that the higher price is because the Government subsides the cost of running the TCA and as I don't pay taxes it's only fair that I pay more. He was silent when I pointed out that most of the Thai taxes are raised not on income but on 'spending'. As I spend perhaps 5 x more than the average Thai salary each month, it is a fair bet that I pay far more into the Government's coffers than the average Thai person. It's a scam. It's racist. And it's one reason why I have become seriously disillusioned with Thailand.

OK Number two: If the Thais really believe this is fair practice why do they put the Thai price in Thai numerals? In Chiang Mai two good examples are the Zoo and the Art place. Car licence plates don't have Thai numerals, nor do most Soi numbers or km stones by the side of the road. Indeed the only place you see them used is when they want to blindside foreigners. Nothing fair about this. Scammers. I won't pay the higher price anywhere.

[ianf]

47 minutes ago, Fairynuff said:

I rest my case!!

Principle?

[Dipterocarp]

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Wow, you completely misunderstood the point.  The point being it is not racism if the person adjusts their price once they understand the person is Thai, the other point being, how can you expect the ticket seller to instinctively know the white person is Thai, obviously in a country like Thailand, where almost every citizen is Asian, people are going to assume a white person is foreign.

The markets are a very different issue to official dual pricing, you will also get ripped off in markets in London and most anywhere else you take your tourism, in London they even went as far as to invent a coded language specifically to rip off outsiders, market traders increasing the price if they think they can is nothing unique to Thailand, it's not racism it is just ruthless business.

 

No I totally understand you point I used to make it myself. Now I understand it to be apologism for all these ignorant assumptions and prejudices. So I have been rhetorically hammered into a position of admitting dual pricing is based on Nationality. You still have this standard is that is  very very difficult to achieve.  Then I'll likely get the Thai price at an official venue if I fight for it showing a Thai ID card because I can't expect people to accept a white face as Thai. Still won't help in all the other informal situations like markets and Transport bigotry. 

 

We have people here for decades raising Thai families and children, paying taxes, not so wealthy maybe, even PR holder.  "Farang Price".  Meanwhile Tiger Woods, a multi-millionaire sports figure with tenuous ties to the Kingdom can rock up every few years and he is entitled to a passport (by law) and Thai prices based only because he happened to tumble out of a Thai woman.  

 

Totally backward and inexcusable cannot be explained away by Nationalism alone.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Dipterocarp

[gemguy]

Well then...If anyone of relevant authority ever asks you about any tax liabilities then you can always tell them:

"I have already paid more than my fair share by way of the dual pricing system that exists in Thailand"   ....and use that as a legal argument and adamantly stick to that reasoning and logic....lol

I recommend it.........

Cheers

[IMA_FARANG]

Look at it from the other side.

Let's say you are a Thai vendor ho spends the whole day out in the hot sun waiting for a customer

A farang refuses to give you an extra 20 baht which he or she then uses that 20 baht to buy an ice cream bar which he or she doen;t finish but throws away.

i'm not saying it is fair, but if that was you, how would you feel?

Walk a mile in my shoes before you criticise me.

 

[ezrider62]

21 hours ago, overherebc said:

I needed to buy a belt and watched a Thai buy a leather belt in a local market while I was looking at stuff on the stall next to it. He paid 100 baht. After he walked away I picked a belt exactly the same and asked how much? 200 the stall owner said. I handed over 100 and said he only paid 100 so I pay the same and walked off with the belt.

I still use it.

 

great job! One gold star for you!

[jak2002003]

12 minutes ago, IMA_FARANG said:

Look at it from the other side.

Let's say you are a Thai vendor ho spends the whole day out in the hot sun waiting for a customer

A farang refuses to give you an extra 20 baht which he or she then uses that 20 baht to buy an ice cream bar which he or she doen;t finish but throws away.

i'm not saying it is fair, but if that was you, how would you feel?

Walk a mile in my shoes before you criticise me.

 

If that person who is out in the hot sun all day with no customers should use their brain and see from their own experience that they would have a lot more farang customers buying their stuff if he / she  stops being raciest and judging people.. and charging farangs more money that Thais.

 

Different prices for different nationalities is raciest and wrong. 

 

I don't encounter it now... once you can speak the language they tend not to do it.. because they realise you know whats going on.  If someone tried to charge me more for some basic thing, like for food or clothes, I would not get angry, nor would I walk away.  I tell them its not right to do that and then leave.. hopefully if more people did that the seller would change their ways.

 

I do, however, agree with tourists and none residents paying to go into temples, national parks, etc and it being free for Thai people.  Same is in the UK, tourist should pay for local attractions to help support them, as they have paid no taxes or helped in any way towards these kind of things.  But this is for tourists, not bases on nationality or race.  Same price for all tourists. 

 

 

[maxcorrigan]

20 hours ago, Oxx said:

Of course, the government leads the way with dual pricing for tourist attractions.  The little people (and some not so little people) are only following their government's glorious example.

Yes if it was simply dual pricing eg. X2 for frangs it might be more palatable, but X10 is a pure scam, i have said to my Thai wife just imagine in London when she and three other Thai relatives visited Madame Tussards at the £30 entrance fee per head, could she imagine them asking the Thai people to pay £300 per head! i still don't think she could equate what i was on about though!

Ps We did not pay the horrendous entry fee, as my then next door neighbour was a maintenance manager, so we got in free legally via a side door!

[ianf]

1 hour ago, Dipterocarp said:

No I totally understand you point I used to make it myself. Now I understand it to be apologism for all these ignorant assumptions and prejudices. So I have been rhetorically hammered into a position of admitting dual pricing is based on Nationality. You still have this standard is that is  very very difficult to achieve.  Then I'll likely get the Thai price at an official venue if I fight for it showing a Thai ID card because I can't expect people to accept a white face as Thai. Still won't help in all the other informal situations like markets and Transport bigotry. 

 

We have people here for decades raising Thai families and children, paying taxes, not so wealthy maybe, even PR holder.  "Farang Price".  Meanwhile Tiger Woods, a multi-millionaire sports figure with tenuous ties to the Kingdom can rock up every few years and he is entitled to a passport (by law) and Thai prices based only because he happened to tumble out of a Thai woman.  

 

Totally backward and inexcusable cannot be explained away by Nationalism alone.

100% racism. Two friends: One half Thai half American; One half Thai half German. We cycle to a national park: They refuse to pay the farang price. After 10 minutes soft argument they produce their Thai ID's. Got in at Thai price and so did I because they told the park attendant that they cannot charge me farang price.

[maxcorrigan]

19 hours ago, AlexRich said:

I never had this problem when I lived in Thailand. If a place operated dual pricing I just would not use it, nor would I buy tat from markets ... just stick to regular shops with a single price policy. Problem solved.

 

ultimately Thailand loses.

I also avoid them whenever possible, but when you out with Thai friends or relatives and they decide to show me a national park, it enrages me when i get picked out for X10 pricing, and there is no way out, other than spoil the day for the others!

[realenglish1]

4 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

You missed the point on this one Marketing is not your strong point so I will explain and its not Racialism

Locals have been so many times they don't bother now as its boring to them

 

Disney need customers so to try and get them back they reduce prices but it hardly ever works may get a few

 

Plus its well advertised unlike thailand

 

I suggest you try this

 

Stand behind a thai and buy a lottery ticket

then you buy one at double the price for the same chance to win

you will like that I feel sure

There are  2 trains of thought . First   Disney is just trying to boost locals to come  Local venues like parks here in Thailand have a different approach They charge more because they know Farang have more money. I couild accept this charging more if it was only meant for tourists This is not the case IF you have local ID and liver here in Thailand they don't care they still charge you . This is clearly a way of getting more from Farang and not an ecouredgement for locals to come since it does not apply to local Farange Very Bad 

[laislica]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

22 hours ago, laislica said:

Cuba had an official (but very unpopular) dual pricing system and their new leader is about to remove it.

In 1969 I was working in Penang and I saw several prices offered and it depended who was the seller and who was the buyer.

Best price was Chinese to Chinese, then Chinese to a westerner, then Chinese to Indian and finally Chinese to Malay.

If it was a Malay or Indian seller, then they had their own favorites.

I wonder if it's still the same?

At the end of the day, IMHO, the seller wants to get the best return from a sale.

He has a price that the locals will bear and he has to charge that or less or sell nothing.

He sees the foreigner as someone who is a millionaire for their holiday, has money to burn and even appears to enjoy burning it.

So why not try to get more?

Sure it's pure greed but if there are enough stupid foreigners who just pay up, this becomes a new market value as far as the seller is concerned.

 

When I retired to Spain from the UK in 2000, I gave tips to the bars and restaurants.

That is until Spanish friends pointed out that the Spanish people were not tipping like me.

That I was effectively telling the bar owner that he should change more.......

 

When I came to Thailand about 5 years ago, I met an American.

He said that "You Brits have stuffed it all up for the rest of us"!!

He went on to say that we were happy to buy our g/f or wife a house.

So much so, that it has become the currency of a relationship.

No  house, no relationship and they will keep fishing until they find one.

 

I suppose that this is a kind of dual pricing?

 

Cuba never had dual pricing. The particulares system similar to rationing in the U.K. meant items could be purchased cheaper with a monthly coupon allowance. Befor the Greenback was banned 3 currencies existed, $US $Convertible and Cuban Peso but never dual pricing per se as in Thailand.

OK, you focused on the minutiae and probably missed the whole point of my post so I emboldened a bit, to help you.

Jeesh!

[Khon Kaen Dave]

I dont mind too much about dual pricing,to the point where it becomes an obsession.Sometimes my wife and i will go down town and eat from the local vendors.I usually ask how much a meal is before,so there can be no mistake.She looks after the buying side for anything more substantial.EG went to a shop to buy a big blue bin for rubbish.My mrs went in there and inquired the price.It was 250 baht.I went in the next week and the price had suddenly gone up to 350 baht.The wife was in the shop next door and stepped into the the shop i was in and the shop guy suddenly said he had made a mistake and thought that i wanted,wait for it,"the Luxury rubbish bin." I asked to see the "luxury bin" and,quick as a flash he told me "sell last one" my wife told him it was the last time we would use his shop and was told"up to you"as a show of bravado.We now go into the shop next door,same stuff,different owner.and i always give the guy a big 'hello" and show him what he hasnt sold me.Dual pricing will always be with us,no matter what the law,until Thais understand that all felangs are not millionaires.

[amykat]

I think this is a frustrating subject for expats because it hits us in many places.  It isn't just the random tourist attraction or t-shirt vendor.  It it was, we could live with it.  In many ways, in my opinion, this is a culture, with it's hand always out. They have no shame in this regard, and this is offensive to me.  I am (was) always a target and there is never any payback .

 

In the past if I socialized with Thai people, I was told that  I needed to pay for everyone, generally, as the farang.  If I was invited to a birthday and brought a nice gift I would discover the purpose of the invitation was for me to pay the entire bill.  I knew some Thais traveling in Europe while I was also traveling, and found them playing the "poor Thai please sponsor me" to every one they met there, in spite of the fact they were a group of 50 year old men, who were lawyers, bank executives,  business owners, a mafia type and quite well off here. They paid for NOTHING.  They asked me to pay once for a tourist attraction that cost $700 for the day in Switzerland for the group of them. Those same men will also let me pay for them in Thailand too, and when I need their services will charge me double or triple because I am not Thai. Thankfully I already knew that, and told them to go F' themselves.  After that, they started respecting me more and did pay for me socially in Thailand.

 

Imagine that ..I am woman, and younger than them ..these men are not poor, not uneducated, they just have NO SHAME at all and this is their culture!!  You men who think it is just the women all about paying for sex and your women ..it isn't !!

 

However, my point is, this is their deal  ..the hand is always out. You date a family member who doesn't work out of choice, and is sucking all your money away in the first place, the whole family thinks you owe them money for a lifetime also ( in some families.)  They have land and a house and a truck and motorbikes and still they want your allowance and why do you pay it? Oh, yes, because they smile at you once a year and they are so nice?  And everybody tells you this is what you must do!!

 

Maybe if we stopped all this other BS we wouldn't feel so bad about the other things. (Personally I don't do any of that other BS but many of my friends do, and I got sucked in to a lot of scamming friends when I was new here.)

 

However it is still impossible to avoid when you need to do things, like house repairs, and many big ticket things where large "commission" can come into play.

 

 

 

[Dep714]

The dual pricing for everyday items like food does boil my blood. For me it's  usually Isaan food sellers.

 

For tourist attractions I understand it's just business. Who is going to go all the way to a foreign country and not pay to see the main attractions? Disneyland does it too. 

 

When I was in school, the University of California schools charged foreigners 5 times the tuition of a local. I wonder if Thai universities do this?

[Jackin1960]

Got to say dual pricing for me was totally out of order. I can remember a time when I was working and living in Thailand visiting a Thai national park with my Thai wife and two young daughters. We stopped by the entrance and went to pay I knew the price was 20Bt for adults but when the tickets where handed to us I was asked for over 400Bt. I took out my Thai drivers licence told them I lived and worked in Thailand and that I wanted to pay the 20Bt like my wife. But he insisted that I pay 400Bt for my ticket as I was foreign. So I opened the back door of the pick up and pointing showed him my two daughters then asked him how much for them. He quoted the Thai price. I asked him why they are paying the Thai price as they are half English and Half Thai and that one of the girls was even born in Spain. That sent his head into meltdown as he could not think of an answer. After a chat with what I think was his boss he reluctantly  came back asking for the Thai price for all of us. 

 

[TonyClifton]

5 hours ago, possum1931 said:

How did you know anyone was actually a Thai unless they told you, people look alike in different South East Asia countries. ie, if I showed you a picture of one girl from each SEA country, would you be able to pick out the Thai?

 

 

 

Howard Stern was notorious for doing shows just like this.

[NoshowJones]

6 minutes ago, TonyClifton said:

 

 

Howard Stern was notorious for doing shows just like this.

Who is Howard Stern? I take it he is some sort of TV (not Thaivisa) personality.

[dcnx]

Lived here for 30 years, never once been asked to pay a different price than the locals. If you smile, treat them with respect, and wear a clean collared shirt at all times, they will treat you as one of their own.  

 

 

 

 

 

;-)

[TonyClifton]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Who is Howard Stern? I take it he is some sort of TV (not Thaivisa) personality.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Stern

[stevemac]

 
That's pure stupidity mate.
 
But it's true, the western tourists have ruined it here and now prices are higher than in the West.
 
My wife bought her own house, car and pays her own holidays. She's happy with that and me as well.

My wife had the land. I built the house. Works great for me!

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[stevemac]

 
Except this is not racism, Asians also get charged the foreigner rate.  Is it also racism  in your opinion that is the motivation behind Switzerlands and Japans dual pricing offering lower rates for tourists?

Of course it's still racist (I'd use a less emotive term maybe opportunism), just aimed at a wider group, although it doesn't really bother me. For the small vendors looking to support a family on a pittance and knowing it's going to support the local community rather than a big national/ multinational means an extra 50/ 100 baht here or there makes little difference to me. I try to use small local shops to some degree for this reason. They are accepting me in their community, and it's a small price to pay.
If I need to make a bigger purchase, I suss it out first and then send my wife or friend on their own.

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