Foreigner as Management position

[JWNY]

Hi everyone,

 

I would like to ask for some kind input.

 

I am 35 year old from Malaysia, been in the finance industry for more than 10 years. I have been offered a Management position with a Thai company. 

 

What I would like to ask is more from a cultural perspective:

 

- Are Thai people willing to work for managers that are not locals. Are foreigners detested 

- Are there ways, I can "blend in" to smoothen this type of transition - like learning the language or joining social events with my colleagues / subordinates

- I can be quite a workaholic and work weekends or beyond traditional working hours as well. Although i do not impose these values on others, how is this perceived in Thai society 

- Is wearing a suit appropriate for a manager or just normal office wear

 

I have previously worked in a few countries around South East Asia, and there are various different challenges. I would just like to know what to expect.

 

Appreciate and kind feedback and thank you for your replies

[Savilesghost]

I have worked for 15 years in a management postion in Thailand 

 

And the norms in Thailand are the same as everywhere else, be a d@ck and patronise the locals and treat them badly and you will get the same in return

 

Treat them as normal people and you will be fine, dont be an arrogant pr#ck and full of your own impotance...

 

Also the need to work all these extra hours and weekend, suggests bad planning on your part...

 

 

 

 

[JWNY]

13 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

 

Also the need to work all these extra hours and weekend, suggests bad planning on your part...

 

 

 

Hi Savilesghost,

 

Many thanks for reply.

 

Of course, respect begets respect. I was just worried that they would assume why the Board would hire a foreigner to "steal their jobs".

 

No offence taken on your last comment. This is just my mantra in life. As shared, i would not impose my values on staff to work outside their contracted employment hours or weekends. I love what I do, working overtime and taking work home. I have no social life (unfortunately). That is why this posting is interesting for me, it may offer me a different perspective of life.  I have previously slogged in Timor-Leste, Indonesia and Singapore. 

[Savilesghost]

40 minutes ago, JWNY said:

 

Hi Savilesghost,

 

Many thanks for reply.

 

Of course, respect begets respect. I was just worried that they would assume why the Board would hire a foreigner to "steal their jobs".

 

No offence taken on your last comment. This is just my mantra in life. As shared, i would not impose my values on staff to work outside their contracted employment hours or weekends. I love what I do, working overtime and taking work home. I have no social life (unfortunately). That is why this posting is interesting for me, it may offer me a different perspective of life.  I have previously slogged in Timor-Leste, Indonesia and Singapore. 

 

Well take it from someone who had vastly more years in business than a 35 year old, the no social life , the weekends, the overtime is the best way to a heart attack by age 45, and your board of directors will not give a toss, i promise 

 

See it too many times, i have had  two friends in businees keel over in Thailand and die from heart attacks due to work stress...one at 37 and the other at 49

 

[fletchsmile]

59 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

I have worked for 15 years in a management postion in Thailand 

 

And the norms in Thailand are the same as everywhere else, be a d@ck and patronise the locals and treat them badly and you will get the same in return

 

Treat them as normal people and you will be fine, dont be an arrogant pr#ck and full of your own impotance...

 

Also the need to work all these extra hours and weekend, suggests bad planning on your part...

 

 

 

 

 

I'd seriously disagree the norms in Thailand are the same as everywhere else. There are different Thai cultural norms and then there are also the organisation norms. For example "kreng jai" is a very common cultural norm here. Definitely not a big part of culture where I come from. Too many others to list or explain in a post on here

 

I'd agree about being patronising though. 

 

Having to work extra hours and weekend is not necessarily down to bad planning. Often a reflection of the role, challenges, cultural norms etc. Industry is also another factor. Depending on role, company, culture there may well be many others in a finance company working long hours too.

 

To OP I'd suggest you read the book "Working with the Thais" by Roy Tomizawa. It's a bit dated now. Also there are differences between modern and more traditional old fashioned Thais. Age is a factor too. However, it will give you an idea of some of the possible cultural differences you may come up against.

 

BTW As a Malaysian some of these cultural differences may be less pronounced to you than say a westerner, but some will be different nevertheless.

 

You're on the right track to be expecting some differences and making yourself aware of some of them is a good step. There are also companies that run induction courses for expats that highlight some of the cultural differences. Worth a day if you can get your company to pay. Or have a few beers with expats who've worked here... 

 

Cheers

Fletch :)

 

 

[JWNY]

40 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

See it too many times, i have had  two friends in businees keel over in Thailand and die from heart attacks due to work stress...one at 37 and the other at 49

 

 

I am sorry to hear of your loss. Thank you for your sincere advice. I will try to change my priorities. Maybe that is why I am considering relocation

 

32 minutes ago, fletchsmile said:

 

I'd seriously disagree the norms in Thailand are the same as everywhere else. There are different Thai cultural norms and then there are also the organisation norms. For example "kreng jai" is a very common cultural norm here. Definitely not a big part of culture where I come from. Too many others to list or explain in a post on here

 

To OP I'd suggest you read the book "Working with the Thais" by Roy Tomizawa. It's a bit dated now. Also there are differences between modern and more traditional old fashioned Thais. Age is a factor too. However, it will give you an idea of some of the possible cultural differences you may come up against.

 

BTW As a Malaysian some of these cultural differences may be less pronounced to you than say a westerner, but some will be different nevertheless.

 

You're on the right track to be expecting some differences and making yourself aware of some of them is a good step. There are also companies that run induction courses for expats that highlight some of the cultural differences. Worth a day if you can get your company to pay. Or have a few beers with expats who've worked here... 

 

Cheers

Fletch :)

 

 

 

Hi Fletch,

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. 

 

Yes, I try to do extensive research to make sure I could potentially be a good fit.

 

The impression of my dealings with Thai people (although not an extensively large number are:)

 

- As you mentioned, sometimes they give you a feeling of not wanting to impose or be inconvenienced. This could be negative to develop skills for my team. I believe every organisation have good people, and in tandem with their products and services - can harness successfully to achieve short-term or long-term objectives

 

- Same as above, during my interaction - the answers are usually positive or "yes". But when it comes to execution and delivery, it usually falls short of expectations. I'm not very sure is it a language issue, misaligned skill set or just being nice as above post.

 

- Punctuality. Of course not the biggest flaw, and traffic conditions may work against them. I generally see this issue with Manila or Jakarta as well.

 

But, nonetheless i do appreciate your input. Have a nice weekend

[JWNY]

Found this report to share. A little dated but may be useful for others 

 

http://www.pwc.com/th/en/publications/2014/living-and-working-in-bangkok-4th-edition-240214.pdf

[natway09]

Having worked in a Senior Management position here for 23 years my advice would just be treat people

as people, understand their problems, they will in turn help you operate the required systems & work with you.

A bit of Thai language will help with communication & an  understanding the local customs.

Do not bend outside the norms .Pick your route to work carefully to avoid wasting 4 hours a day in traffic

Best of Luck

[thurien]

as a Malay, as a fellow South East Asian, as somebody closer to Thai culture and Thai thinking than the standard forum farang, as somebody with obviously broad business experience in South East Asian countries, as somebody who appears to be learned I consider you pulling my leg with your query - have a goodday mate

[diehard71]

as a rule of thumb most thai companies will only hire non thais if no suitable local applicants are available because of the paperwork with visas and work permits etc..

[jerojero]

Hi everyone,
 
I would like to ask for some kind input.
 
I am 35 year old from Malaysia, been in the finance industry for more than 10 years. I have been offered a Management position with a Thai company. 
 
What I would like to ask is more from a cultural perspective:
 
- Are Thai people willing to work for managers that are not locals. Are foreigners detested 
- Are there ways, I can "blend in" to smoothen this type of transition - like learning the language or joining social events with my colleagues / subordinates
- I can be quite a workaholic and work weekends or beyond traditional working hours as well. Although i do not impose these values on others, how is this perceived in Thai society 
- Is wearing a suit appropriate for a manager or just normal office wear
 
I have previously worked in a few countries around South East Asia, and there are various different challenges. I would just like to know what to expect.
 
Appreciate and kind feedback and thank you for your replies

After 35 years in managerial positions, workaholism in my early years brought nothing but regret in later years. Missed opportunities, relationships, family life. Get a social life and a partner or special companion, your youth will fast disappear as the work years consume you. Do it now, or you will face regret later.

[JWNY]

5 hours ago, natway09 said:

Having worked in a Senior Management position here for 23 years my advice would just be treat people

as people, understand their problems, they will in turn help you operate the required systems & work with you.

A bit of Thai language will help with communication & an  understanding the local customs.

Do not bend outside the norms .Pick your route to work carefully to avoid wasting 4 hours a day in traffic

Best of Luck

 

Hi Natway09,

 

Many thanks for your kind reply.

 

Could you kindly elaborate a little of "outside the norm"?

 

Just to share, when i was in Timor-Leste, it was my 2nd day. I gave one of my staff a piece of paper. My instructions were to photocopy and returned to me. 

 

10 minutes turned into an hour, after lunch and after tea - still no copy. I went and asked where it was

 

The reply was "Oh mr JWNY wants it now?"

 

My mistake? I did not specify I needed it back as soon as possible. I assumed it would be done quickly

 

In Singapore, anything more than 2 minutes would be criminal. 

 

Am i exaggerating? Maybe a little on the 2 minutes but it did happened.

 

[JWNY]

2 hours ago, thurien said:

as a Malay, as a fellow South East Asian, as somebody closer to Thai culture and Thai thinking than the standard forum farang, as somebody with obviously broad business experience in South East Asian countries, as somebody who appears to be learned I consider you pulling my leg with your query - have a goodday mate

 

I am flattered you think of me that way, sincerely. But we are learning everyday. I strive to be a perfectionist in everything i do.

 

My intention of this thread is to learn. I do not intend to come to Bangkok to have a siesta, I truly want to add value to their business and meet all my KPIs to the Board. My role is to manage people, and my query is to understand how i can do it well from seniors who have been in my position before. Trust we are on the same page now. 

[JWNY]

2 hours ago, diehard71 said:

as a rule of thumb most thai companies will only hire non thais if no suitable local applicants are available because of the paperwork with visas and work permits etc..

 

Personally, for myself I see some challenges but also opportunity for my personal development. 

 

[JWNY]

2 hours ago, jerojero said:

After 35 years in managerial positions, workaholism in my early years brought nothing but regret in later years. Missed opportunities, relationships, family life. Get a social life and a partner or special companion, your youth will fast disappear as the work years consume you. Do it now, or you will face regret later.

 

Thank you for your kind reminder. I will keep that in mind.

[khunPer]

The Book "Bridging the Gap" by Kriengsak Niratpattanasai may be interesting for you, and answer a lot of your questions. Asia Books, ISBN 974-8303-67-5.

Wish you good luck...

[Saenchai]

I never had bad situations beeing Senior Production Manager for a nowadays well known fashion online-shop. People always treatet me with respect (as i did too) and it was more a friendly, family like atmosphere. But when given instructions they still did it without any delay or whatever. Im german, so what one cals a farnag. Not sure how they treat Malay people.

 

I think it depens a lot on yourself. ANd the company you work for. If you manage construction workers it will probably a different as when you manage a team of programmers.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Saenchai

[JWNY]

12 hours ago, khunPer said:

The Book "Bridging the Gap" by Kriengsak Niratpattanasai may be interesting for you, and answer a lot of your questions. Asia Books, ISBN 974-8303-67-5.

Wish you good luck...

 

Thank you for sharing. I hope I can get a hold of a copy for further insights

[JWNY]

9 hours ago, Saenchai said:

I never had bad situations beeing Senior Production Manager for a nowadays well known fashion online-shop.

I think it depens a lot on yourself. ANd the company you work for. If you manage construction workers it will probably a different as when you manage a team of programmers.

Hi Saenchai,

 

thanks for sharing. I feel slight;y more comfortable more after hearing all these replies

[Savilesghost]

20 hours ago, JWNY said:

 

Hi Natway09,

 

Many thanks for your kind reply.

 

Could you kindly elaborate a little of "outside the norm"?

 

Just to share, when i was in Timor-Leste, it was my 2nd day. I gave one of my staff a piece of paper. My instructions were to photocopy and returned to me. 

 

10 minutes turned into an hour, after lunch and after tea - still no copy. I went and asked where it was

 

The reply was "Oh mr JWNY wants it now?"

 

My mistake? I did not specify I needed it back as soon as possible. I assumed it would be done quickly

 

In Singapore, anything more than 2 minutes would be criminal. 

 

Am i exaggerating? Maybe a little on the 2 minutes but it did happened.

 

And as a manager whose fault was this ? Yours..you never set expectations or communicated said expectations clearly, you assumed

[thurien]

On 22.1.2017 at 5:12 PM, diehard71 said:

as a rule of thumb most thai companies will only hire non thais if no suitable local applicants are available because of the paperwork with visas and work permits etc..

 

that thumb has a sub- rule: Thai companies LOVE  to hire non- Thais whenever they need a scape goat to clean up the mess somebody else in the organization produced or is going to produce (so the newly-hired foreign specialist cannot even smell he is going to be framed because there is nothing smelly yet ...) normal Chinese -Thai tactics written in age-old text books...

[JWNY]

21 hours ago, Savilesghost said:

And as a manager whose fault was this ? Yours..you never set expectations or communicated said expectations clearly, you assumed

That's what i acknowledged

[JWNY]

15 hours ago, thurien said:

 

that thumb has a sub- rule: Thai companies LOVE  to hire non- Thais whenever they need a scape goat to clean up the mess somebody else in the organization produced or is going to produce (so the newly-hired foreign specialist cannot even smell he is going to be framed because there is nothing smelly yet ...) normal Chinese -Thai tactics written in age-old text books...

You could do that to a local Thai as well I guess. 

[Savilesghost]

16 hours ago, thurien said:

 

that thumb has a sub- rule: Thai companies LOVE  to hire non- Thais whenever they need a scape goat to clean up the mess somebody else in the organization produced or is going to produce (so the newly-hired foreign specialist cannot even smell he is going to be framed because there is nothing smelly yet ...) normal Chinese -Thai tactics written in age-old text books...

Rubbish and i am basing this remark on 15 years working in a mangement position in a Thai company..

 

What you basing your remarks on ? Extensive management experience in Thailand it wot a man on bar stool told you ! 

 

 

[Savilesghost]

41 minutes ago, JWNY said:

You could do that to a local Thai as well I guess. 

The poster is talking through his backside while pearched on a bar stool one suspects, these forums are full of them 

[4MyEgo]

My dad used to have a saying, "Son, I have been where you are coming from", take it easy, slow down, we are all going to the same place, don't forget to live, don't be so serious.

 

46 was when I had a heart attack, I worked my butt off for a lot of years, made the company a lot of $, I made the crumbs and paid my taxes for 39 years of my working life, I got a bunch of flowers sent to my home address while I was in hospital with a get well card, not a single person from the company visited me in hospital or said take as much time as you like off.

 

I had the heart attack on a Friday at midnight of a long weekend, I returned to work on Tuesday noting that my position was filled by a junior who had no idea what he was doing or was in for, everybody above me was out playing golf, it was at that time I learnt my value, suffice to say I left the company that day and ran my own show till I turned 55 and then retired to Thailand, now living off some term deposits and doing a little day trading which has worked out extremely well considering what it costs to live here. As for the junior, he lasted 2 days I was told and there were a few others who lasted a few weeks, I did keep telling the big boys in the meeting, this is a 3 person job.

 

My advise to you, "having been where your coming from" is work your set hours, no overtime, no weekends, no one gives a rats a$$ about you, get out and smell the roses, don't try to impress the ones above, live your life, don't allow yourself to become a slave to your own mind set, look up, take a breath, and live, at the same time set yourself up to retire early in life so you can enjoy the rest of it, after all, we only have one, find your purposes, but please don't tell me you love your job, its like a smoker telling me he loves smoking while he is being poisoned by 4,000 chemicals in his cigarette, "ignorance is bliss".

 

I have also seen too many loyal friends getting dispensed of for note meeting ridiculous targets/KPI's set by idiots from overseas who wouldn't know anything about the local market, the bottom line is, if you can't please the company or you leave tomorrow, you will be replaced with another machine, get my drift, look after number one.

 

Good Luck 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by 4MyEgo

[JWNY]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I have also seen too many loyal friends getting dispensed of for note meeting ridiculous targets/KPI's set by idiots from overseas who wouldn't know anything about the local market, the bottom line is, if you can't please the company or you leave tomorrow, you will be replaced with another machine, get my drift, look after number one.

 

Good Luck 

 

 

Thank you 4MyEgo for sharing.

 

i'm just looking for my next challenge in my career / life. i want to share my knowledge and expertise - i'm not trying to change anything.

 

The Board is looking for fresh ideas. I am trying to meet culture with expectations. This is an old cliche but  “Choose a job you love, and you will never have towork a day in your life,” Confucius once said . i'm sincerely not preaching - just finding positive way for every situation

 

i'm sorry to hear of your condition and wish you a speedy recovery.

[4MyEgo]

38 minutes ago, JWNY said:

Thank you 4MyEgo for sharing.

 

 

 

i'm just looking for my next challenge in my career / life. i want to share my knowledge and expertise - i'm not trying to change anything.

 

 

 

The Board is looking for fresh ideas. I am trying to meet culture with expectations. This is an old cliche but  “Choose a job you love, and you will never have towork a day in your life,” Confucius once said . i'm sincerely not preaching - just finding positive way for every situation

 

 

i'm sorry to hear of your condition and wish you a speedy recovery.

 

I like that saying as old as it is, I now have the best job in the world, and health wise, am good as GOLD 555

 

Good Luck