Decent good value red wine

[lgking]

19 minutes ago, SiSePuede419 said:

Move to California and go to Trader Joe's.  They have their own brands of Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Shiraz, etc for only $2USD per bottle and it's excellent.

 

I've blind taste tested it against similar vintages for $5-35 per bottle and you can't tell the difference. ?

I dream of Trader Joe's in the middle of the night!

 

PS It's been a while since you have been back, it's now 2.49 a bottle (Charles Shaw...'2-buck Chuck').

Edited March 7, 2017 by lgking

[lungnorm]

If you can find Aussie or New Zealand wine its not that expensive and compares well with the expensive European stuff. Hardy's is a good Aussie brand. So is Yellow tail. I would avoid Chilean wine and especially avoid Calafornian red as they have started dumping it because Glyphosate has already go into the Calafornian wines.

[xylophone]

2 minutes ago, lgking said:

Listen, I know you mean well...but I did mention in a previous post that 'executives' working for Siam Winery stated that there is no fruit juice in the wine other than fermented grape juice.

 

However, why don't you do yourself a favor and stop embarrassing yourself by spewing all kinds of speculative nonsense...and give the winery a call...and report back to us.

 

The owners name is: Chalerm Yoovidhya

 

and the winemakers name is: Kathrin Puff

Sorry you have got your knickers in a twist, however there are a few articles online which state that Montclair has fruit juice added to it (actually hibiscus juice, so maybe they don't call it fruit juice?).

 

A couple of articles have been by wine experts who were privy to this wine when it was launched and know exactly what goes into it.

 

Actually I have contacted the winery on two or three occasions but got no response because it is something they don't want to admit to, however they do have to comply with regulations and that is why they have the words "fruit wine" on their casks and bottles.

 

Now ask yourself this............no other producer of wine made exclusively from grapes ever puts, or has to put the words "fruit wine" on the label. Why, because wine is the internationally recognised name for wine made from grapes. If it is made from grapes plus anything else or even from all fruit, then it has to have the words "fruit wine" on the label, which is what Montclair wines have.

 

Now this subject has been covered in hundreds of posts in the Montclair wine thread and there have been newspaper articles and publicity articles reproduced which state that Montclair has "fruit juice" (or call it hibiscus juice if you wish) added to it.

 

Montclair has to put the words "fruit wine" on its bottles and casks because it contains something other than just pure grape juice. Look carefully and you will find those words on every one of their products and that should put an end to your doubts and ranting.

 

Why don't you do some research on the terms wine and fruit wine and what can be called what and then report back to us. Other than that take time to read through the hundreds of posts regarding this very subject.

 

By the way, go and look on a bottle of Chateau Latour and see if you can find the words "fruit wine" written anywhere? Or for that matter any of the thousands of other well-known wines made from grapes and you will never see the words, "fruit wine" on them............

[paddyfield7]

I enjoyed Taras red and white wine from Chile at Mae Rim Lagoon Resort and asked the owner where he had it from. The answer was

 

http://ambrosewine.com/index.html

 

I contacted them, and they sent me a 3 page Excel-list of their offers. Amongst Taras from Chile, they also have Hardy's from Australia, and many more good brands. They have outlets in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, Samui and Chiang Mai, they deliver to your home, or you can pick up the wines at their outlets or any place in your area upon agreement. I was so excited that I bought 6 boxes of 12 bottles red and white, which will last far into the 2nd semester of this year. I try to attach their price list, which may, however, only reflect wines from their Chiang Mai channel. I believe they don't accept credit cards, thus you must pay cash or transfer the money upon takeover.

Chiangmai Price list 2017_OK.xlsx

[hoffy66]

On 06/03/2017 at 6:06 PM, Khamtam Sutyoddi said:

The other day I saw some wine from Australia at 199thb sold at Villa... Has anybody tried it?

yes and every wine that i have seen that says it is a product from australia, has not been good, maybe they dump the left overs over here,

 

[xylophone]

On 3/7/2017 at 6:11 PM, lgking said:

<snip> removed by moderator

Why don't you do some research and stop wasting your and my time, as well as others on this thread or perhaps answer the question: – why does Montclair have the words "fruit wine" written on their bottles and casks....... because they have to by law. Wine made solely from grapes doesn't. It is as simple as that but you seem incapable of understanding that.

 

Once you understand why, then you won't need to post any more on the subject and you will be enlightened.

 

Go ahead and see what you come up with and you may well learn something, although I doubt it judging by your posts.

[bazza73]

IMHO there is no such thing as a decent value red wine in Thailand. Wines from Australia that would be selling for 150 - 200 baht there are north of 500 baht here. In addition, the temperature variations imported wine is exposed to in travelling here plays merry hell with the congeners. The Thais desperately need a top-shelf winemaker/oenologist to teach them how to make decent wine.

 

I drink good reds in Australia. I drink Thai beer here.

[lungnorm]

1 minute ago, bazza73 said:

IMHO there is no such thing as a decent value red wine in Thailand. Wines from Australia that would be selling for 150 - 200 baht there are north of 500 baht here. In addition, the temperature variations imported wine is exposed to in travelling here plays merry hell with the congeners. The Thais desperately need a top-shelf winemaker/oenologist to teach them how to make decent wine.

 

I drink good reds in Australia. I drink Thai beer here.

Nothing wrong with the Aussie reds I drink here in the Philippines. They have to travel just as far and the climate is the same as Thailand so I can't see the temps causing much of a problem in Thailand. I have drank Aussie reds in Thailand but what a price they charged, switched to beer in no time.

[lgking]

29 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Why don't you do some research and stop wasting your and my time, as well as others on this thread or perhaps answer the question: – why does Montclair have the words "fruit wine" written on their bottles and casks....... because they have to by law. Wine made solely from grapes doesn't. It is as simple as that but you seem incapable of understanding that.

 

Once you understand why, then you won't need to post any more on the subject and you will be enlightened.

 

Go ahead and see what you come up with and you may well learn something, although I doubt it judging by your posts.

 

Siam Winery: 02 533-5600

 

Winemaker: Kathrin Puff

 

Please let us know what she says.

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by lgking

[topt]

25 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Why don't you do some research and stop wasting your and my time, as well as others on this thread or perhaps answer the question: – why does Montclair have the words "fruit wine" written on their bottles and casks....... because they have to by law. Wine made solely from grapes doesn't. It is as simple as that but you seem incapable of understanding that.

 

Once you understand why, then you won't need to post any more on the subject and you will be enlightened.

 

Go ahead and see what you come up with and you may well learn something, although I doubt it judging by your posts.

xylophone it would be worth keeping the links to hand for the other recent threads on this and just posting them and letting people do some research. Some posters I think must live under a damp mouldy edifice and you are on a hiding to nothing.......

[topt]

41 minutes ago, vsigrist said:

I enjoyed Taras red and white wine from Chile at Mae Rim Lagoon Resort and asked the owner where he had it from. The answer was

 

http://ambrosewine.com/index.html

 

I contacted them, and they sent me a 3 page Excel-list of their offers. Amongst Taras from Chile, they also have Hardy's from Australia, and many more good brands. They have outlets in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, Samui and Chiang Mai, they deliver to your home, or you can pick up the wines at their outlets or any place in your area upon agreement. I was so excited that I bought 6 boxes of 12 bottles red and white, which will last far into the 2nd semester of this year. I try to attach their price list, which may, however, only reflect wines from their Chiang Mai channel. I believe they don't accept credit cards, thus you must pay cash or transfer the money upon takeover.

Chiangmai Price list 2017_OK.xlsx

Taras is actually from Australia and the price in that price list is very competitive. (Even the list has them under Australia ) 

Good value wines which I used to drink fairly often.

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, lgking said:

 

Siam Winery: 02 533-5600

 

Winemaker: Kathrin Puff

 

Please let us know what she says.

 

Better still......read these and you will see references to Siam winery, Montclair and added fruit juice, so no need for the phone call. Read and learn.

 

You are the one disputing my posts although as I said this has been covered in hundreds of posts in the Montclair thread and is covered below.

 

Just as an aside, you may well have learnt from "Trump speak" that facts can be "alternative" so if one were to ask the winemaker if they added fruit juice, they could well say no. They could say no because they don't add it, they blend it!

 

It may not be fruit juice, it may be fruit juice concentrate or fruit concentrate or in the case of Siam winery it is hibiscus, which may not in their eyes count as fruit juice, but it's certainly not a grape. 

 

Indeed the last article here which I have reproduced a little of, actually lauds Siam winery for their expertise in building the fruit wine market!!! Go figure!

 

Please, no more of your nonsense.

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Thailands-wine-industry-crossroads/52624

 

http://wineandabout.com/business/fruit-appearing-shelves/

 

http://www.thebigchilli.com/news/fruit-wine-is-it-for-real

 

http://blog.glitterati.be/buying-wine-in-thailand/

 

http://www.bangkokbestdining.com/wine-review-detail.php?id=19

Fast forward to the present, and four increases in wine taxes later, it is once again possible to find a bottle of wine for about Bt250 in Thailand provided it has been diluted with fruit juice. Hello to the Fruit Wine era!  Giving credit where credit is deserved Siam Winery, Thailand’s original producer of wine coolers, applied their knowledge of substantially lower tax rates on fruit added wine to wines shipped in bulk from South Africa and Australia. The result has been the huge success of 5 liter boxed Mont Clair red and white fruit wines selling for under Bt1000 each.

If you are among the many who have become used to buying fruit added wine here’s a “heads up!” Better start buying a reserve supply before the price jumps by as much as 50% and likely more during the next 12 months.  When Siam Winery opened the door to using the fruit wine tax loophole, which drops the tax a whopping 60%, excise department bureaucrats were nothing if not dumbfounded. Their “take” from the original ill-founded tax on grape wine started dropping as more and more importer-distributors joined the fruit wine party.  

To staunch their losses excise officials, joined by neo-prohibitionists and various other anti-wine groups, set out to close the tax advantage for the burgeoning fruit wine paradox by simply raising the rate to equal that imposed on authentic wine. Siam Winery deserves a HURRAH for enlisting the assistance of savvy insiders to plead their case for saving at least some of the tax advantage on the fruit wine market they so presciently built. Fortunately, for those whose palates and pocketbook constraints have inured them to wine augmented by whatever fruit juices happened to be handy, Siam Winery has likely saved at least some of their customers and their own money, at least for the time being.

 

[xylophone]

20 minutes ago, topt said:

xylophone it would be worth keeping the links to hand for the other recent threads on this and just posting them and letting people do some research. Some posters I think must live under a damp mouldy edifice and you are on a hiding to nothing.......

Good idea topt and I think I am on a hiding to nothing with this poster, despite the fact that there have been many articles written on Montclair and the addition of fruit/fruit juice and one I would have particularly liked to have found, and it is in the Montclair thread, is one which did some in-depth research into Montclair wine and publicly stated that it was grape juice with added hibiscus fruit – – this from a wine expert and published in a Pattaya newspaper.

 

Now if this wasn't true, the writer of the article would have been sued from here to kingdom come, but no, it still stands.

 

And for the record I have contacted the winery, but got no response and anyway as I have said in the previous post, I doubt very much whether one would get a straight answer because they have done everything to try and keep this out of the press and even put the words "fruit wine" in an obscure place and indeed many people didn't even know it was there. They are obviously not proud of the fact/or don't want it well-known.

[Poppadom]

Siam vinery in Hua Hin produces both "fruit wine" and the real stuff too, but my relation with Thai wine is like that with Thai coffee beans...

30 Mile is not bad and we also like Monasterio de las vinas with wife

Edited March 7, 2017 by Poppadom
correct grammar

[Stevemercer]

My question was going to be - Why add fruit juice to wine? Surely this is just an added expense? OK, I can see the answer above is that it is just for tax reasons, to make wine affordable and to develop the domestic industry. Fair enough.

 

Cheaper wines (under 500 Baht) will be blended wines (with the grapes or raw wine coming from any number of vineyards). In Australia, Aldi changed the game some years ago with blended wines selling for $1:50 (35 Baht) a bottle. They're probably up to $2:50 (65 Baht) a bottle by now. My wife use to bring these back to Thailand and palm them off as good wines from Australia. Of course, none of her Thai family or friends could tell the difference from a decent $20 (500 Baht) wine.

[Poppadom]

3 minutes ago, Stevemercer said:

My question was going to be - Why add fruit juice to wine? Surely this is just an added expense? OK, I can see the answer above is that it is just for tax reasons, to make wine affordable and to develop the domestic industry. Fair enough.

 

Cheaper wines (under 500 Baht) will be blended wines (with the grapes or raw wine coming from any number of vineyards). In Australia, Aldi changed the game some years ago with blended wines selling for $1:50 (35 Baht) a bottle. They're probably up to $2:50 (65 Baht) a bottle by now. My wife use to bring these back to Thailand and palm them off as good wines from Australia. Of course, none of her Thai family or friends could tell the difference from a decent $20 (500 Baht) wine.

Steve, blended wines (eg cuvée) doesn't necessarily mean poor quality, they can be excellent too. Just like quality coffee blends from various single origin beans.

[Stevemercer]

Oh yes, I agree. Many blended wines in the $10 - $20 price bracket (Australian price) are excellent. A $1.50 wine might be OK as a table wine, and still tastes better than most wines made in Thailand (in my opinion).

[OZBill]

5 hours ago, lgking said:

The last Hotel & Food show at BITEC this year I hunted down the Siam Winery booth to ask that very question. They assured me that NO FRUIT JUICE (other than the fermented juice of grapes) was used in any of their wines. However, a loophole does allow them to say 'fruit juice', because...damn, IT IS!

Spot on. Loophole in the law - enjoy while you can as it will not last. Best value quaffers in town. 

[OZBill]

4 hours ago, xylophone said:

Sorry you have got your knickers in a twist, however there are a few articles online which state that Montclair has fruit juice added to it (actually hibiscus juice, so maybe they don't call it fruit juice?).

 

A couple of articles have been by wine experts who were privy to this wine when it was launched and know exactly what goes into it.

 

Actually I have contacted the winery on two or three occasions but got no response because it is something they don't want to admit to, however they do have to comply with regulations and that is why they have the words "fruit wine" on their casks and bottles.

 

Now ask yourself this............no other producer of wine made exclusively from grapes ever puts, or has to put the words "fruit wine" on the label. Why, because wine is the internationally recognised name for wine made from grapes. If it is made from grapes plus anything else or even from all fruit, then it has to have the words "fruit wine" on the label, which is what Montclair wines have.

 

Now this subject has been covered in hundreds of posts in the Montclair wine thread and there have been newspaper articles and publicity articles reproduced which state that Montclair has "fruit juice" (or call it hibiscus juice if you wish) added to it.

 

Montclair has to put the words "fruit wine" on its bottles and casks because it contains something other than just pure grape juice. Look carefully and you will find those words on every one of their products and that should put an end to your doubts and ranting.

 

Why don't you do some research on the terms wine and fruit wine and what can be called what and then report back to us. Other than that take time to read through the hundreds of posts regarding this very subject.

 

By the way, go and look on a bottle of Chateau Latour and see if you can find the words "fruit wine" written anywhere? Or for that matter any of the thousands of other well-known wines made from grapes and you will never see the words, "fruit wine" on them............

It is called fruit wine to reduce the tax - simple.

 

[DonaldBattles]

I believe that the fruit juice term might come from the bulk wine being imported into Vietnam and then sent to Siam Winery as fruit juice to get past the ASEAN tax issue. This assumes that the wine is boxed or bottled in Bangkok. I am only suggesting that this might be the reason as I do not know. People in contact with Siam Winery might ask them if this is the case.

 

When you find a bottle of imported wine from Australia for 200 Baht think about:

420% tax

Transport cost

Profit for supplier and distributor

Bottle cost

 

After these costs are considered the true value of the wine is very small.

[xylophone]

10 hours ago, OZBill said:

It is called fruit wine to reduce the tax - simple.

 

Well it's not that simple actually, because if you call it "fruit wine" then it has to be a wine which is defined as a "fruit wine" (Merriam Webster Dictionary………….Definition of fruit wine:  a wine fermented from fruit other than grapes).

 

You cannot simply label something fruit wine when it isn't, to reduce the tax, because that is fraud.

 

I looked back into the hundreds of posts on the Montclair thread and came up with something which I have been looking for and that is the use of the Hibiscus plant, called Roselle (Hibiscus or Roselle juice in Thai is…….กระเจี๊ยบแดง krajiab daeng)  and the fruit thereof in the making of wine and it was this which was referred to in the articles produced in relation to Montclair.

 

And as I did say earlier, the term "fruit wine" is only used to describe wine made from something else and not entirely from grapes (it can actually be a mix) and Montclair has the words "fruit wine" on its casks and bottles, so in reality they are telling it like it is, so there should be no argument.

 

PS. It could well be that the fruit of the Hibiscus/Roselle plant is added to the grape juice imported from South Africa to give it more colour/flavour. So if one asked the winemaker if they were adding fruit juice to their wine, then on a technicality, they could probably say no. However the addition of something other than grapes basically ensures that it has to be called "fruit wine".

Edited March 8, 2017 by xylophone
Addition

[xylophone]

15 hours ago, lungnorm said:

If you can find Aussie or New Zealand wine its not that expensive and compares well with the expensive European stuff. Hardy's is a good Aussie brand. So is Yellow tail. I would avoid Chilean wine and especially avoid Calafornian red as they have started dumping it because Glyphosate has already go into the Calafornian wines.

Reminds me of the wine I was considering buying from France, the 1986 vintage in fact (obviously a few years later) and several wine collectors were advising me to stay clear of it because it was considered the "nuclear vintage" because of the Chernobyl disaster in 1986!

 

I did buy some and keep it and it drank well quite a few years later and as yet I don't glow-in-the-dark!!

 

I take note of your comment regarding glyphosate, because it is an insidious chemical promoted by an untrustworthy company.

[xylophone]

12 hours ago, Stevemercer said:

Oh yes, I agree. Many blended wines in the $10 - $20 price bracket (Australian price) are excellent. A $1.50 wine might be OK as a table wine, and still tastes better than most wines made in Thailand (in my opinion).

There are several versions of "blended wines" and a lot of these originated in the Australian market where they would blend Cabernet Sauvignon with Shiraz for example (mostly unheard-of until the Aussies did it, with great success I may add) and it would be stated thus, whereas in France a Bordeaux wine was labelled just that, however it was allowed to consist of a number of grape varieties, including Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec and Petit Verdot.

 

Again in Australia, in white wines it is allowed to blend between 15 and 20% (if I remember correctly) of another grape into say, Chardonnay, for example, and the wine is still labelled Chardonnay.

 

Little-known perhaps is the fact that one of Australia's greatest wines, Penfold's Grange is allowed to blend in a small percentage of Cabernet Sauvignon to the Shiraz wine in order to give it a little more fruit and balance.

 

I'm all for trying different wines with different grape varieties, provided that is, that they are grapes and not something else.

[natway09]

Depends on what style you like & what level.

Pinot, Shiraz, Cabernet etc.

For a quaffing everyday wine, some of the Australian & (or) Sth African Chateau cardboard are not bad

(cask wines)

[superal]

4 hours ago, xylophone said:

There are several versions of "blended wines" and a lot of these originated in the Australian market where they would blend Cabernet Sauvignon with Shiraz for example (mostly unheard-of until the Aussies did it, with great success I may add) and it would be stated thus, whereas in France a Bordeaux wine was labelled just that, however it was allowed to consist of a number of grape varieties, including Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, Cabernet Franc, Malbec and Petit Verdot.

 

Again in Australia, in white wines it is allowed to blend between 15 and 20% (if I remember correctly) of another grape into say, Chardonnay, for example, and the wine is still labelled Chardonnay.

 

Little-known perhaps is the fact that one of Australia's greatest wines, Penfold's Grange is allowed to blend in a small percentage of Cabernet Sauvignon to the Shiraz wine in order to give it a little more fruit and balance.

 

I'm all for trying different wines with different grape varieties, provided that is, that they are grapes and not something else.

Many folks including myself till recently  are unaware of fruit wine and what goes on to avoid taxes . Wine is wine to the majority and is taken for granted to be so .  As you will remember we had this debate only a few weeks ago and many good hints were given . I look at wine more closely now and read the labels ( with my glasses on ) to see if there is fruit wine printed .

[mike324]

23 hours ago, xylophone said:

Unfortunately that's not the case here as many of the wines on sale have fruit juice added and it is clearly stated on the casks and bottles. Montclair is a prime example and has the words fruit wine on its label, although not clear to see. Although it is not a wine cooler/cocktail wine, it is blended with fruit juice, as stated, albeit surreptitiously on the label.

 

I believe the previous poster was referring to these types of wine and they are manyfold these days.

 

The term "wine" is internationally applied to wine made from grapes, and anything other than this has to have the words "fruit wine" included on the label, which is what is happening now, although a few producers try to make that as hard to see as possible!

 

You are probably correct, I don't know all the wines the produce under montclair. Yes its best to read the labels carefully.

[Skeptic7]

Villa Market and Lotus have the best selection and prices. Best for the money...

 

Berri Estates Bin 999 (full dry Australian red) B295/bottle 

[xylophone]

15 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Villa Market and Lotus have the best selection and prices. Best for the money...

 

Berri Estates Bin 999 (full dry Australian red) B295/bottle 

I think you may find that this also has fruit juice added (Fruit Wine on the label) BUT having said that I have tried the Berri Estates Full red in cask and IMO it is the best of the cask/fruit wine bunch (pun intended).

 

 

[rickudon]

Generally speaking, it is hard to find real red wine in Thailand at under 500 baht a bottle, ok some, but not much. For those of us who are not wine buffs and living on a pension, real wine is a bit too expensive here. I have tried some of the fruit wines in Thailand, and some are as good as a cheap genuine wine. Others are awful.

 

Some of the Thai produced fruit wines are terrible, Be cautious about trying the lesser known brands. You would be better off drinking Spy. Peter Vella and Montclair are acceptable and most wouldn't know they contain juice other than grapes. But for the same price you can buy Australian fruit wines (look for the blue tax sticker on the top), which are just as good (if not better) than the Thai produced ones. Villa Market and sometimes Tesco and Makro stock them, and if you buy the 2 litre bottles works out as under 200 baht a litre. Red fruit wines are ok, yet to taste a drinkable white one though. Castle Creek is the main Red one i have seen (and drunk),

[superal]

2 hours ago, rickudon said:

Generally speaking, it is hard to find real red wine in Thailand at under 500 baht a bottle, ok some, but not much. For those of us who are not wine buffs and living on a pension, real wine is a bit too expensive here. I have tried some of the fruit wines in Thailand, and some are as good as a cheap genuine wine. Others are awful.

 

Some of the Thai produced fruit wines are terrible, Be cautious about trying the lesser known brands. You would be better off drinking Spy. Peter Vella and Montclair are acceptable and most wouldn't know they contain juice other than grapes. But for the same price you can buy Australian fruit wines (look for the blue tax sticker on the top), which are just as good (if not better) than the Thai produced ones. Villa Market and sometimes Tesco and Makro stock them, and if you buy the 2 litre bottles works out as under 200 baht a litre. Red fruit wines are ok, yet to taste a drinkable white one though. Castle Creek is the main Red one i have seen (and drunk),

One of the reasons I like to drink red wine occasionally is because it is one of the few alcoholic drinks that is good for your health if drank in moderation  , the benefits coming from the grape . Had a discussion a while back with  Xylophone who is well informed on wines to whether fruit wine gave the same benefits . He thought that there may be a dilution of the grapes potency . There is no info that I can find on the web to show if there has been tests on fruit wine .

         Also I have to agree that P.V.  is passable and is fairly popular where I stay in the north east .