Do you pay Thai income tax on your pension?

[tigermoth]

You must be nuts. Pensions from any country are not regarded as income. If in doubt make sure your pension is paid into a bank account in the country of origin then transfer it to Thailand. You are then transferring savings, not income. Wake up pal.

[bandito]

17 hours ago, Estrada said:

I went to the Thai tax office and they still have my records from when I worked here years ago. They told me that as I was retired and on a pension from the UK, they were not interested in myself declaring pension income for Thai tax purposes. I pension is no longer taxed by the UK either.

 

True, taxes will be collected if you work here not on pensions.

The various Governments will let you believe that you have to pay tax on your pension, with or without an agreement avoiding paying double tax.

These agreements are for persons working, for example, here in Thailand.

As a test I asked a Thai accountant to register me as a taxpayer at the Internal Revenue Office Thailand.

She went there with paperwork and got the message that I was on a retirement extension and therefore a tourist and tourists don't have to pay tax to Thailand.

This while my country has an agreement with Thailand to avoid paying double tax.

Thai logica is one of the best.

[orientalist]

While googling on this subject I found this on the Thai Embassy website. Not sure where they got the info:

 

"Only income earned inside Thailand shall be subjected to tax during retirement. Therefore, you will not be obliged to pay any taxes for any income you have earned from overseas. Also, personal income taxes are not required for retirees in Thailand. Note that you can’t work in Thailand while on a retirement visa."

 

http://www.thaiembassy.com/faq/do-retirees-pay-income-tax.php

 

To be on the safe side, I put my pension into an offshore bank and transfer it to Thailand the following year.

[Moonlover]

In an idle moment this morning, I calculated how much tax I would pay were the Thai authorities to tax me on my remitted income. It would amount to about 40,500 THB per year. Not a lot and I would be able to reclaim it through my UK tax coding anyway. That's what the double taxation treaty is all about.

 

But it would irritate me a great deal if I had to go through that process and I would bitterly resent the intrusion into my private life. The immigration service is already too intrusive for my liking!

 

I have also calculated that I probably put a similar amount into the Thai coffers in VAT that is collected on my spending, so I'm already being taxed thank you very much!

 

I am, of course, just one of many, Were the tax authorities to try and tax expats, I'm sure a great many would take the 'up yours' attitude and leave. Taking with them, not only the VAT revenue, but the valuable foreign currency remittance that is so important to this country,

 

I, for one don't think that the Thai authorities are that stupid. I'm sure they know that they would be unwise to take potshots at this small but valued flock of golden geese.

 

 

[bazza73]

No, because my Australian pension is paid into an Australian account and stays in Australia. Funds transferred into Thailand come from investment income of the previous year, taxed in Australia.

 

I agree - it would take remarkable stupidity to try to tax expat retiree pensions here. Apart from anything else, it would be an administrative nightmare.

[fletchsmile]

19 hours ago, Surasak said:

As the UK has a double taxation treaty with Thailand. UK income is taxed by the UK HMRC and therefore tax cannot be taken by the Thai tax office. Equally income earned in Thailand cannot be taxed by HMRC.

The UK does have a DTA with Thailand.

 

However, it doesn't include most people's pensions. Private pensions are not covered in the DTA, nor is the state/old age pension. Only certain pensions for government employees (yes them looking after themselves again LOL) are included in the DTA.

 

More info and links in this thread

 

 

[paulsingle]

11 hours ago, SiSePuede419 said:

"Anyone using monthly pension payments to qualify for an annual visa extension, instead of 800k in the bank, is basically declaring to the government thier own liability. "

 

Anyone that can't afford to move $27K USD in savings to Thailand probably can't afford to retire.

 

You poor sods ?

That sounds a little arrogant. 

Rather like the famous comment allegedly made by Marie Antoinette - "Let them eat cake."

[paulsingle]

4 hours ago, robin hood said:

Why should we pay tax on are pensions anyway? we are taxed on earnings, we save for the future and are taxed again, 

does not sound right to me.

 

If you earned in the UK then you were allowed tax relief on pension savings.

[partington]

4 hours ago, orientalist said:

While googling on this subject I found this on the Thai Embassy website. Not sure where they got the info:

 

"Only income earned inside Thailand shall be subjected to tax during retirement. Therefore, you will not be obliged to pay any taxes for any income you have earned from overseas. Also, personal income taxes are not required for retirees in Thailand. Note that you can’t work in Thailand while on a retirement visa."

 

http://www.thaiembassy.com/faq/do-retirees-pay-income-tax.php

 

To be on the safe side, I put my pension into an offshore bank and transfer it to Thailand the following year.

This is NOT the official Thai Embassy website, and has nothing to do with the Thai government at all.

 

It is one of those commercial websites that chooses a domain name to make it sound official - a deceitful practice in my opinion.

 

Remember when you surf:  anyone can pay for any domain name they like, and if you do not check they can fool you. The owners of this site can probably be trusted, although you would be foolish to believe they are representing the Thai government's official view.

 

Along the bottom of this website it says:

 

Copyright © 2015 ThaiEmbassy.com. This is NOT the official website of the Thai Embassy. All Rights Reserved.

 

And, lo and behold it is our old friends Siam Legal who own this site:

Disclaimer

ThaiEmbassy.com is not the official site of the Royal Thai Embassy and is not affiliated with the government of Thailand. This site is maintained and supported by Siam Legal, a Thai law firm. For questions about this site, please contact [email protected].

[topt]

9 hours ago, Moonlover said:

In an idle moment this morning, I calculated how much tax I would pay were the Thai authorities to tax me on my remitted income. It would amount to about 40,500 THB per year. Not a lot and I would be able to reclaim it through my UK tax coding anyway. That's what the double taxation treaty is all about.

 

But it would irritate me a great deal if I had to go through that process and I would bitterly resent the intrusion into my private life. The immigration service is already too intrusive for my liking!

 

I have also calculated that I probably put a similar amount into the Thai coffers in VAT that is collected on my spending, so I'm already being taxed thank you very much!

 

I am, of course, just one of many, Were the tax authorities to try and tax expats, I'm sure a great many would take the 'up yours' attitude and leave. Taking with them, not only the VAT revenue, but the valuable foreign currency remittance that is so important to this country,

 

I, for one don't think that the Thai authorities are that stupid. I'm sure they know that they would be unwise to take potshots at this small but valued flock of golden geese.

 

 

Sorry but do you really think that the "Thai authorities" as you call them could really care less?

I am sure someone could produce any figures they wanted but In the overall scheme of things "our" contribution is probably pretty insignificant to the country's revenue/tax take.

That is probably the real reason why they don't bother "to take potshots........" - plus it really would be too much bother....... 

[KittenKong]

19 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Not a lot and I would be able to reclaim it through my UK tax coding anyway. That's what the double taxation treaty is all about.

 

It is indeed the main thrust of such treaties. Many people dont seem to realise this.

 

 

19 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Were the tax authorities to try and tax expats, I'm sure a great many would take the 'up yours' attitude and leave. Taking with them, not only the VAT revenue, but the valuable foreign currency remittance that is so important to this country,

 

I certainly would. Not paying income tax is the main reason I live here. More and more often I wonder if it's worth it.

 

[Moonlover]

10 hours ago, topt said:

Sorry but do you really think that the "Thai authorities" as you call them could really care less?

I am sure someone could produce any figures they wanted but In the overall scheme of things "our" contribution is probably pretty insignificant to the country's revenue/tax take.

That is probably the real reason why they don't bother "to take potshots........" - plus it really would be too much bother....... 

Don't know why you're apologizing topt. I completely agree with you.

[yang123]

Trying to help an elderly 70+ British expat sort out his Thai (rpt Thai) tax papers.

 

As indicated above (post 36), UK pensions deriving from previous UK government employment are explicitly exempt from Thai tax according to article 19 of the UK/Thai Double Taxation Convention of 1981.  There is no such explicit exemption for  UK State Pensions, implying that State Pension payments are taxable. 

 

But .... several commercial web-sites suggest this isn't the case if the foreign resident is 65 or over: see, for example,

a)  Price Waterhouse Cooper Thai Tax Booklet  (2015) p. 5 at

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/publications/assets/thai-tax-2015-booklet-en.pdf 

This states "a Thai resident who is 65 years of age or older is entitled to personal income tax exemption on an income up to an amount not exceeding THB 190,000"

Similarly, the Sherrings web-site (2017) on Thai personal Income Tax and Allowances states:

"Technically the deduction for taxpayers who are 65 years or older is an exemption from income tax, but for ease of understanding by foreign national residents in Thailand we have included this exemption under the deductions heading"

http://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Spent a while searching Thai Revenue Department sites for an official statement to this effect, but have failed miserably to find one.  Can anyone help?  (Doesn't matter if it's in Thai only, though English version preferred).

 

Thanks in advance!

[JAS21]

CONFUSED ... I have a UK Government pension (was called OAP) and a pension from the company that I worked all my life for.  Both are taxed in the UK.

 

I am Non-resident and Not ordinarily resident UK. I haven't been back to the UK since I left in 2007.

 

So if I bring my pension money to Thailand in the year that I receive it ... I should pay Thailand  Tax or not?  Every year I fill in a tax form to reclaim withholding tax from bank savings. So I have a Thailand Tax number.

 

Safest way I guess is to stick the pension money into an off shore savings bank which already has money in it... transfer other money back to my UK bank when I want to  transfer money to Thailand.   

 

 

[fletchsmile]

On 7/26/2017 at 1:28 PM, yang123 said:

Trying to help an elderly 70+ British expat sort out his Thai (rpt Thai) tax papers.

 

As indicated above (post 36), UK pensions deriving from previous UK government employment are explicitly exempt from Thai tax according to article 19 of the UK/Thai Double Taxation Convention of 1981.  There is no such explicit exemption for  UK State Pensions, implying that State Pension payments are taxable. 

 

But .... several commercial web-sites suggest this isn't the case if the foreign resident is 65 or over: see, for example,

a)  Price Waterhouse Cooper Thai Tax Booklet  (2015) p. 5 at

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/publications/assets/thai-tax-2015-booklet-en.pdf 

This states "a Thai resident who is 65 years of age or older is entitled to personal income tax exemption on an income up to an amount not exceeding THB 190,000"

Similarly, the Sherrings web-site (2017) on Thai personal Income Tax and Allowances states:

"Technically the deduction for taxpayers who are 65 years or older is an exemption from income tax, but for ease of understanding by foreign national residents in Thailand we have included this exemption under the deductions heading"

http://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Spent a while searching Thai Revenue Department sites for an official statement to this effect, but have failed miserably to find one.  Can anyone help?  (Doesn't matter if it's in Thai only, though English version preferred).

 

Thanks in advance!

Yes state pensions are excluded from the DTA. Those of government officials and the like are included in the DTA though.

 

That state pensions are excluded from the DTA doesn't conflict at all with a) or  . These refer to allowances and deductions that can be made against taxable income

 

 

[meatboy]

19 hours ago, JAS21 said:

CONFUSED ... I have a UK Government pension (was called OAP) and a pension from the company that I worked all my life for.  Both are taxed in the UK.

 

I am Non-resident and Not ordinarily resident UK. I haven't been back to the UK since I left in 2007.

 

So if I bring my pension money to Thailand in the year that I receive it ... I should pay Thailand  Tax or not?  Every year I fill in a tax form to reclaim withholding tax from bank savings. So I have a Thailand Tax number.

 

Safest way I guess is to stick the pension money into an off shore savings bank which already has money in it... transfer other money back to my UK bank when I want to  transfer money to Thailand.   

 

 

i left 2009 my pension's are taxable plus any other income over your PERSONEL ALLOWANCE.

i think the uk.personel allw.is 10,500gbp.

your co.pension will be taxed as long as its a uk.based co.that pay's it,as they send the amount [p65] to your tax area,every yr.

[JAS21]

23 minutes ago, meatboy said:

i left 2009 my pension's are taxable plus any other income over your PERSONEL ALLOWANCE.

i think the uk.personel allw.is 10,500gbp.

your co.pension will be taxed as long as its a uk.based co.that pay's it,as they send the amount [p65] to your tax area,every yr.

Ah ... a mis-understanding. ... after re-reading I see that I didn't make my question clear .m.  I know that I have to pay UK tax on all my UK derived income ..pensions/investments/rental income. 

 

My question was can Thailand tax any of my UK income if I bring it over here in the year that it is generated.

 

Moving money to off shore and later bringing 'some' money back should make it impossible for anyone to know which money is which ... 

 

It only involves pressing a key on the computer but necessary??

 

Yes ... I get a P60 every year and submit my tax return on line and pay 'them' in January and July. Gee wish I'd never joined...

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by JAS21

[meatboy]

3 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

Ah ... a mis-understanding. ... after re-reading I see that I didn't make my question clear .m.  I know that I have to pay UK tax on all my UK derived income ..pensions/investments/rental income. 

 

My question was can Thailand tax any of my UK income if I bring it over here in the year that it is generated.

 

Moving money to off shore and later bringing 'some' money back should make it impossible for anyone to know which money is which ... 

 

It only involves pressing a key on the computer but necessary??

 

 

i have never been asked about my income that comes into thailand,even when our house in the uk.was sold.

as the uk.has the double tax treaty with thailand it wont be taxed.

the tax office knows every yr.what myself and the wife are holding in banks here,so its only income that we generate in thailand over i think its 190,000bht,each,that is taxed.

[rickudon]

If you have your pensions paid direct to Thailand it could be possible that tax could be assessed. If paid in the UK, taxed there and you transfer yourself it is practically impossible for the Thai tax authorities to tell if it is pension money or savings being transferred. Hence why they probably do not even attempt to tax it. 

[scubascuba3]

I'm guessing one day the authorities will sharpen up on claiming tax. Lets hope they don't start council tax on property.

[Rhys]

On 3/13/2017 at 6:03 PM, smudger1951 said:

At what % rate would anyone be taxed if proved to be liable in TH

 ... certainly not the salary of many English teachers especially not from BKK international sectors..

[henry15]

Same here

The same applies to Denmark.
Denmark have a taxagreement with Thailand to avoid double tax. So my pension is taxed in Denmark.

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Tapatalk

[Dragon Master 01]

No you shouldn't pay income tax in Thailand for it because you have already paid Taxes in your own Country and that money your bring in from your pension is your home Country Income not Thai Income
It's bad enough in our own Countries we pay taxes on it when our Governments tell us we don't pay taxes but when we look at it we do and the Government just lies to everyone

[wordchild]

5 hours ago, Dragon Master 01 said:

No you shouldn't pay income tax in Thailand for it because you have already paid Taxes in your own Country and that money your bring in from your pension is your home Country Income not Thai Income
It's bad enough in our own Countries we pay taxes on it when our Governments tell us we don't pay taxes but when we look at it we do and the Government just lies to everyone

Sorry, that is sweet and wishful thinking, not really in line with the FACTS  of Thailand’s  various DTA treaties , in particular the one with the U.K. which does not cover most types of pensions income. As is stated above there is , at least a theoretical risk, of being taxed again, in Thailand , on pension income , brought into the country.

[Dragon Master 01]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:05 AM, wordchild said:

Sorry, that is sweet and wishful thinking, not really in line with the FACTS  of Thailand’s  various DTA treaties , in particular the one with the U.K. which does not cover most types of pensions income. As is stated above there is , at least a theoretical risk, of being taxed again, in Thailand , on pension income , brought into the country.

Is that if your working in Thailand and also receiving a pension and you quoted only UK so I still have no idea if I'd have to pay taxes on my pension from New Zealand or Australia

I would actually like to find out the truth about that 1 day as I intend to go and live in Thailand in a few years time and don't really want to lose any more out of my pension than I would by leaving either Country and going to live in Asia

[topt]

7 hours ago, Dragon Master 01 said:

Is that if your working in Thailand and also receiving a pension and you quoted only UK so I still have no idea if I'd have to pay taxes on my pension from New Zealand or Australia

No - working is a completely different subject. With regards to pensions It all depends on any DTAs in place with those countries and the details of those. I suggest you either start a new thread or simply do a search on the subject - a lot of down under discussion in the Home Country forum.....

 

7 hours ago, Dragon Master 01 said:

I would actually like to find out the truth about that

Currently as has already been stated in this thread (and many, many others) it is not currently something that the Thai Revenue currently do. However in theory, and under the current law, they could do so no one knows if it may happen in the future. See post #49 above however. 

[Peterw42]

7 hours ago, Dragon Master 01 said:

Is that if your working in Thailand and also receiving a pension and you quoted only UK so I still have no idea if I'd have to pay taxes on my pension from New Zealand or Australia

I would actually like to find out the truth about that 1 day as I intend to go and live in Thailand in a few years time and don't really want to lose any more out of my pension than I would by leaving either Country and going to live in Asia

It is specifically stated in the Thai/Australian tax treaty, Australian pension is not taxable in thailand.

 

Article 18

Pensions and annuities

 

1. pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State.

 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1989/36.html

Edited November 8, 2018 by Peterw42

[Oxx]

16 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It is specifically stated in the Thai/Australian tax treaty, Australian pension is not taxable in thailand.

 

Article 18

Pensions and annuities

 

1. pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State.

 

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1989/36.html

 

Your conclusion is 100% the opposite of your quotation.

 

The Article 18 quotation suggests that if you are resident in Thailand you pay no Australian tax, but do pay Thai tax.  Ergo Australian pension is taxable in Thailand.

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

Your conclusion is 100% the opposite of your quotation.

 

The Article 18 quotation suggests that if you are resident in Thailand you pay no Australian tax, but do pay Thai tax.  Ergo Australian pension is taxable in Thailand.

You can play with semantics all you like but its pretty dam obvious what is the meaning, intended or otherwise. is. We are not residents of thailand in the context of immigration, we "reside" in thailand temporarily. Resident in the context of a tax treaty refers to citizen.

 

See Article 4 of the tax treaty for a definition of resident.

 

4) An individual's citizenship or nationality of a Contracting State shall be a factor in determining the degree of the person's personal and economic relations with that Contracting State.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Peterw42

[KittenKong]

8 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

We are not residents of thailand in the context of immigration, we "reside" in thailand temporarily. Resident in the context of a tax treaty refers to citizen.

I would be very surprised if it did. Residency in tax cases usually means tax residency. Anyone spending half the year in Thailand is by definition tax resident here, regardless of their income or of any DTA or of what sort of visa they have.

It is also possible to be tax resident in two or more countries at the same time.

 

Actually Article 4 of that document does indeed describe this in detail:

 

Article 4

Residence

 

1. For the purposes of this Agreement, a person is a resident of one of the Contracting States:

 

(a) in the case of Australia, if the person is a resident of Australia for the purposes of Australian tax; and

 

(b) in the case of Thailand, if the person is a resident of Thailand for the purposes of Thai tax.

 

2. A person is not a resident of a Contracting State for the purposes of this Agreement if the person is liable to tax in that State in respect only of income from a source in that State.

 

3. Where by reason of the preceding provisions, an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, the status of the person shall be determined in accordance with the following rules, applied in the order in which they are set out :

 

(a) the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State in which a permanent home is available to the person;

 

(b) if a permanent home is available to the person in both Contracting States, or in neither of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State in which the person has an habitual abode;

 

(c) if the person has an habitual abode in both Contracting States, or in neither of them, the person shall be deemed to be a resident solely of the Contracting State with which the person's personal and economic relations are the closer.

 

4. For the purposes of the last preceding paragraph, an individual's citizenship or nationality of a Contracting State shall be a factor in determining the degree of the person's personal and economic relations with that Contracting State.

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by KittenKong