Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[DILLIGAD]

So would you be in favour of Scottish independence if it was to remain outside the EU?

Personally, no. I still think we can achieve more together.


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[nontabury]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

This is a thread about Scotland, so it makes more sense to point out the powers that are in London, not Brussels - these will be transferred to an independent Scotland. 

 If Scotland were to vote to seperate from the rest of the U.K. And then remain alone. That could be called Independence. But I don't think that is what the SNP have in mind.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 If Scotland were to vote to seperate from the rest of the U.K. And then remain alone. That could be called Independence. But I don't think that is what the SNP have in mind.

 

 

Are you suggesting that, should Scotland achieve independence, the Scottish government should ignore the democratically expressed will of the Scottish people and not apply for EU membership?

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

Personally, no. I still think we can achieve more together.


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Then do you have a plan on how to overcome the significant discontent with the union in its current form that exists north of the border?

[DILLIGAD]

Then do you have a plan on how to overcome the significant discontent with the union in its current form that exists north of the border?

No and if I had, I doubt if I could do much from 'deepest darkest Isaan'


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[transam]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Then do you have a plan on how to overcome the significant discontent with the union in its current form that exists north of the border?

So what's the problem north of the border...?

[transam]

2 hours ago, deeks said:

This may be the main ploy, Now that the UK has left the EU is Scotlands chance to become wholly independent, they have great resources and can go it alone easily.

I wonder if a referendum to join the EU would win once they leave the UK.

What resources...?

[citybiker]

Not at all - you are making a play to stir up controversy by going off topic. 

IIRC didn't you recently mention & raise the question 'why Scotland shouldn't be accepted by the Eu'?
(Unless there is a thread & I've missed it)

Not aiming to be pedantic but that could be classed as going off topic...

As to Scotland's future, I understand the SG want to run its own affair's, obviously Scottish devolution will never be sufficient however the constant belittlement of Westminster & blocking anything constructive and progressive is beyond tiresome and particularly childish, it's well known behind the scenes that Sturgeons being pressured by Salmon (unofficially) which explains her independence proposal speech, and attempting to simply interfere with the Brexit timetable deserved the blatant Churchill sign.

It's currently on & off the bus with the SNP and wanting either the EU or other alternative, the SNP, as you said yourself fiscal policy requires overhaul so why not focus and get domestic issues resolved and improved first then be in a much stronger position to totally self govern, IF the Scottish electorate vote for it.

A family member recently mentioned that the SNP can't be trusted as the once in a generation referendum only works when the SG gets the desired result, so the electorate decision back in 2014 was irrelevant, if it was then the SNP wouldn't be pushing so hard for a 2nd vote, instead of using Brexit as an excuse.


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[baboon]

Five minutes in...

Portillo - "You said at the time is would be settled for a generation."

Salmond - "That was last year".

[7by7]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you suggesting that, should Scotland achieve independence, the Scottish government should ignore the democratically expressed will of the Scottish people and not apply for EU membership?

 The Scottish people voted to remain in the EU under the terms the UK had; negotiated over time by previous British governments.

 

This included not adopting in the Euro, not being in the Schengen area and a substantial rebate on the UK's contribution to the EU's finances.

 

Were an independent Scotland apply to join the EU, then Scotland would have to agree to eventually adopt the Euro and to join Schengen and would almost certainly be unable to receive a rebate in any form on it's contribution to the EU budget.

 

As a staunch believer in the democratic will of the people being expressed in referenda, surely you must believe that the Scottish people should be made aware of this and be offered the choice of whether or not to join the EU post independence. 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Are you suggesting that, should Scotland achieve independence, the Scottish government should ignore the democratically expressed will of the Scottish people and not apply for EU membership?

Not at all. But it would not be Independence,if they were then to join the EU.

 In fact it would be less independence than what Scotland enjoys now. And let's not forget that the Beurocrats in Brussels intend to increase integration between member states, transferring more and more powers from the member states to Brussels.If you think Scotland's gets a raw deal now,contrary to what is fact. You will find that if  Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU. It will be jumping out of the frying pan,into a very big fire.

[citybiker]

Five minutes in...
Portillo - "You said at the time is would be settled for a generation."
Salmond - "That was last year".

Portillo's summary is harsh truth, Scottish electorate feel cheated.

I do admire AN in these programmes.


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[sandyf]

For those easily confused I will clarify a previous comment.

" I understand that it is difficult for many to acknowledge that the Scottish referendum was based on a 650 page white paper rather than verbal rhetoric.(as used in the EU referendum campaign)"

 

"Scotland's Future is a government white paper published on 26 November 2013 by the Scottish Government under First Minister Alex Salmond." 

Page count: 650

Published: November 26, 2013

 

The white paper was published 10 months prior to the referendum and was discussed, analysed and dissected ad nauseum in the media. Anyone with an interest in the referendum at the time was fully aware of the white paper content.

Now that the topic has been raised again, selective memory comes into play.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, nontabury said:

 If Scotland were to vote to seperate from the rest of the U.K. And then remain alone. That could be called Independence. But I don't think that is what the SNP have in mind.

 

 

You are quite right, and I have said the same previously. It would not be a second referendum but a new referendum on whether Scotland should try and join the EU, independence is merely a stepping stone. This is why the brexit negotiations are irrelevant, unless of course TM is planning to remain in the EU and that is why she wants Scotland to wait.

There is a lot of talk about the protection of peoples rights, The UK government is controlled by England and England is trying to deprive the people of Scotland the right to determine their own future. If the people of Scotland do not want to join the EU, they will say so.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, citybiker said:

IIRC didn't you recently mention & raise the question 'why Scotland shouldn't be accepted by the Eu'?
(Unless there is a thread & I've missed it)

Not aiming to be pedantic but that could be classed as going off topic...

As to Scotland's future, I understand the SG want to run its own affair's, obviously Scottish devolution will never be sufficient however the constant belittlement of Westminster & blocking anything constructive and progressive is beyond tiresome and particularly childish, it's well known behind the scenes that Sturgeons being pressured by Salmon (unofficially) which explains her independence proposal speech, and attempting to simply interfere with the Brexit timetable deserved the blatant Churchill sign.

It's currently on & off the bus with the SNP and wanting either the EU or other alternative, the SNP, as you said yourself fiscal policy requires overhaul so why not focus and get domestic issues resolved and improved first then be in a much stronger position to totally self govern, IF the Scottish electorate vote for it.

A family member recently mentioned that the SNP can't be trusted as the once in a generation referendum only works when the SG gets the desired result, so the electorate decision back in 2014 was irrelevant, if it was then the SNP wouldn't be pushing so hard for a 2nd vote, instead of using Brexit as an excuse.


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"A family member recently mentioned that the SNP can't be trusted"

 

That is a left over from the old days, there was always a question mark over the relationship between the SNP and the SNA, and to many south of the border they were one and the same.

 

It is the younger generation that is going to have to face the fallout of any decision so it is their views that should be given priority rather than those with lingering memories of the past. I would include myself in that as I remember the rallies Alex Salmond held in his early days and wouldn't trust him with my future. I accept that is probably unfair as people are known to change.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You are quite right, and I have said the same previously. It would not be a second referendum but a new referendum on whether Scotland should try and join the EU, independence is merely a stepping stone. This is why the brexit negotiations are irrelevant, unless of course TM is planning to remain in the EU and that is why she wants Scotland to wait.

There is a lot of talk about the protection of peoples rights, The UK government is controlled by England and England is trying to deprive the people of Scotland the right to determine their own future. If the people of Scotland do not want to join the EU, they will say so.

The U.K. Government is not controlled by England. It is voted in by the people of the whole of the U.K.  I remember the time when Labour was voted into power, against the wishes of the majority in England,due to the fact that the Scottish vote tipped the scale. 1964 quickly comes to mind.  Yet did the people of England start to cry like little babies? Likewise when the majority of the Cabinet (the actual government) consisted of a high proportion of Scots ( one cabinet had 16 Scots out of 19 ministers) again did the English people come on to forums to complain about the inequality of the system and how Scotland was depriving those terrible English people?

[transam]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

The U.K. Government is not controlled by England. It is voted in by the people of the whole of the U.K.  I remember the time when Labour was voted into power, against the wishes of the majority in England,due to the fact that the Scottish vote tipped the scale. 1964 quickly comes to mind.  Yet did the people of England start to cry like little babies? Likewise when the majority of the Cabinet (the actual government) consisted of a high proportion of Scots ( one cabinet had 16 Scots out of 19 ministers) again did the English people come on to forums to complain about the inequality of the system and how Scotland was depriving those terrible English people?

Two Scot Prime ministers not so long ago too..

[nontabury]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

Two Scot Prime ministers not so long ago too..

Yes, and have't Tony WMD Blair and Gordon Bigot Brown left a great legacy from their time in office. Perhaps if Scotland does ever vote for seperation, it should be put into law that no Scot should ever again be allowed to become the PM of the remaining UK. Leave them to make a <deleted> of Scotland. Just like Nicola Sturgeon.

[Grouse]

18 hours ago, transam said:

What resources...?

Great people

 

and fish ?

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39575484

 

1) Brexit is indeed a material change. It was not expected at the time of the referendum ( It was not expected the day before!)

 

2) The timing is ENTIRELY reasonable. The terms of the deal will be near enough agreed (if there is one - I think the Con Party will engineer an excuse to crash out). I also think that if there is SRef2 before Brexit, there would be an opportunity to negotiate a transitional deal with the EU.

 

3) I feel there is much more clarity coming from Edinburgh than Westminster these days.

 

BTW, somebody asked for a successful small EU member without huge oil wealth. Denmark has about 6M people and is the obvious candidate with many similarities in culture. I really could see Scotland taking that route and flourishing!

 

(ranked 32 in the world for oil and gas and expected to be a net importer by 2020)

Edited April 15, 2017 by Grouse

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39575484

 

1) Brexit is indeed a material change. It was not expected at the time of the referendum ( It was not expected the day before!)

 

2) The timing is ENTIRELY reasonable. The terms of the deal will be near enough agreed (if there is one - I think the Con Party will engineer an excuse to crash out). I also think that if there is SRef2 before Brexit, there would be an opportunity to negotiate a transitional deal with the EU.

 

3) I feel there is much more clarity coming from Edinburgh than Westminster these days.

 

BTW, somebody asked for a successful small EU member without huge oil wealth. Denmark has about 6M and is the obvious candidate with many similarities in culture. I really could see Scotland taking that route and flourishing!

Where does Denmark get it's wealth from....?

 

How does their taxation work in comparison to Scotland...?

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, transam said:

Where does Denmark get it's wealth from....?

 

How does their taxation work in comparison to Scotland...?

https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/denmark/economy

 

Corporate and income taxes are very high. However, benefits are excellent and inequality is low. Happy people. I honestly think Scotland could emulate Denmark. And anyway, I like Edinburgh and Copenhagen!!

[Flustered]

18 hours ago, baboon said:

 

Portillo - "You said at the time is would be settled for a generation."

Salmond - "That was last year".

This has to be the quote of the century and shows how genuine the SNP are.

 

Or is one year a "generation" in Scotland?

[transam]

Just now, Grouse said:

https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/denmark/economy

 

Corporate and income taxes are very high. However, benefits are excellent and inequality is low. Happy people. I honestly think Scotland could emulate Denmark. And anyway, I like Edinburgh and Copenhagen!!

Scots will not like very high taxes, they don't like UK taxes....

[baboon]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

This has to be the quote of the century and shows how genuine the SNP are.

 

Or is one year a "generation" in Scotland?

Only until they win their 'independence' referendum. Then let's see how long their concept of time will be as and when there are calls for a referendum for rejoining the UK...

Wreckers and charlatans, the lot of them.

Edited April 15, 2017 by baboon

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

The U.K. Government is not controlled by England. It is voted in by the people of the whole of the U.K.  I remember the time when Labour was voted into power, against the wishes of the majority in England,due to the fact that the Scottish vote tipped the scale. 1964 quickly comes to mind.  Yet did the people of England start to cry like little babies? Likewise when the majority of the Cabinet (the actual government) consisted of a high proportion of Scots ( one cabinet had 16 Scots out of 19 ministers) again did the English people come on to forums to complain about the inequality of the system and how Scotland was depriving those terrible English people?

When all else fails, digress, the topic is about the possibility of another Scottish referendum.

To clarify, are you saying that there is not currently a majority of English MP's in the UK cabinet and that the UK cabinet is not trying to prevent the Scottish government from holding said referendum.

[citybiker]

"A family member recently mentioned that the SNP can't be trusted"
 
That is a left over from the old days, there was always a question mark over the relationship between the SNP and the SNA, and to many south of the border they were one and the same.
 
It is the younger generation that is going to have to face the fallout of any decision so it is their views that should be given priority rather than those with lingering memories of the past. I would include myself in that as I remember the rallies Alex Salmond held in his early days and wouldn't trust him with my future. I accept that is probably unfair as people are known to change.

Oh yes, the age discrimination dilemma.

The younger generation also blamed the middle aged and older generation for the Brexit result, unfortunately democracy doesn't consider the age factor in these situations & quite right too.

Lastly, if more of the younger UK generation 'bothered' to vote then that argument would have some credibility.


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[sandyf]

11 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Oh yes, the age discrimination dilemma.

The younger generation also blamed the middle aged and older generation for the Brexit result, unfortunately democracy doesn't consider the age factor in these situations & quite right too.

Lastly, if more of the younger UK generation 'bothered' to vote then that argument would have some credibility.


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Maybe you can point out where I mentioned anything about voting.

My point was made in the context of the whole post, that their 'views', with reference to the SNP, expressed in any campaign should be given serious consideration and not overshadowed by those that may be clouded from the past.

[nontabury]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

When all else fails, digress, the topic is about the possibility of another Scottish referendum.

To clarify, are you saying that there is not currently a majority of English MP's in the UK cabinet and that the UK cabinet is not trying to prevent the Scottish government from holding said referendum.

I don't know. But if you go on population and everything else is equal. their ought to be  12 times more English than Scots. Though as I've already pointed out to you, one cabinet consisted of 16 Scots 2 English and 1 Welsh. I think it's called 'The tail wagging the dog'  yet still complaining their underrepresented and exploited by those nasty English people.   

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, transam said:

Scots will not like very high taxes, they don't like UK taxes....

I'm not so sure about that. It's a completely different deal. The Danes seem to be happy enough! I found their system worked great. ?