Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[Basil B]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

There was a referendum 2 years ago and the Scots did not vote to leave UK. It was billed as a once and for all, which conventionally means once per generation.  Opinion polls don't even suggest a change, and indeed the majority of people don't want another referendum.  My conclusion is that it is an absurd request.

This should be left until the next general election, if the SNP can double the number of MP's they have at Westminster then let them have a referendum. 

[whatawonderfulday]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do read up on it. Watch the documentary / drama. Then get back to me.....

 

I used to live at Culloden when I was first married. My first ever telephone number was Culloden Moor 500!

 

Some escaped? Like at the Warsaw uprising? What a moronic comment. You should be ashamed.

Watched it when it was first released, great drama with the correct outcome. And I guess when you lived there the excitment was all over, unless of course you were around in 1746 which would be a bit off a stretch to believe. Quite how you can equate the persecuted Jews in Poland with a rebellion by the Scots against England, well guess that it Scottish obtuse thinking. Have a nice day and calm yourself down.

[cheapskatesam]

The whole situation mindset of Sturgeon is bizarre.

 

She wants to bring about massive constitutional change and essentially break up a country that is integrated economically, politically cultural and socially for 300+ years in order to be "independent" and stay in the EU which accounts for bugger all of Scotlands trade.. Scotland alone trades more with the RoW than it does with the EU bloc.

 

England is going to be outside the single market and customs union so there will have to be a border with Scotland.. what else could be done? 

[RuamRudy]

Just now, cheapskatesam said:

The whole situation mindset of Sturgeon is bizarre.

 

She wants to bring about massive constitutional change and essentially break up a country that is integrated economically, politically cultural and socially for 300+ years in order to be "independent" and stay in the EU which accounts for bugger all of Scotlands trade.. Scotland alone trades more with the RoW than it does with the EU bloc.

 

England is going to be outside the single market and customs union so there will have to be a border with Scotland.. what else could be done? 

 

Massive (and highly unpopular) constitutional change is being thrust upon Scotland at the behest of England - that is the driver for this.

 

But something else to ponder: if we are as politically, culturally and socially integrated as you suggest, why does almost half of Scotland want to go it alone? Things are not as rosy as you seem to think.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, whatawonderfulday said:

Pity the Scots could never really shake of the shame of Culloden and have had chips on their shoulders ever since

I don't mind poking 'em with a cattle prod now and again but this and the potato famine are no go areas if we are to enjoy a bit o' banter while steering clear of flame wars.

[cheapskatesam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Massive (and highly unpopular) constitutional change is being thrust upon Scotland at the behest of England - that is the driver for this.

 

But something else to ponder: if we are as politically, culturally and socially integrated as you suggest, why does almost half of Scotland want to go it alone? Things are not as rosy as you seem to think.

 

Britain leaving the EU is change but not massive constitutional change. Scotland becoming a separate country is massive.. everything has got to be negotiated and new bodies need setting up.. Military, Embassies.. the list is endless.

 

The Scots don't give a toss about the EU.. it was a poor turn out and it was an "i'm alright jack" vote for remain. 

[whatawonderfulday]

Just now, evadgib said:

I don't mind poking 'em with a cattle prod now and again but this and the potato famine are no go areas if we are to enjoy a bit o' banter while steering clear of flame wars.

Excuse me but the potatoe famine was in Ireland around 100 years later. And if certain people attempt to distort the truth because of their inability to accept historical facts, then that is their problem.

[citybiker]

To wait would risk EU membership

No guarantee of EU acceptance...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dunroaming]

21 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

They should be legally obliged to wait because nobody knows what will happen as a result of Brexit and it may conceivably turn out to be to Scotland's advantage.

 

What if they vote now for independence, then Brexit proves highly beneficial to the UK? Then Scotland will want back in again. It's ridiculous. Just wait.

I think for Sturgeon Brexit is just the vehicle she is using to get a second referendum.  Obviously it would be better to see how Brexit is progressing but if it does look like a success then that would scupper Sturgeons chances of independence.  Much more a case of what's best for Sturgeon rather than what's best for Scotland.

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, cheapskatesam said:

 

Britain leaving the EU is change but not massive constitutional change. Scotland becoming a separate country is massive.. everything has got to be negotiated and new bodies need setting up.. Military, Embassies.. the list is endless.

 

The Scots don't give a toss about the EU.. it was a poor turn out and it was an "i'm alright jack" vote for remain. 

 

It seems to me that Scotland voted against independence.  And those that do proclaim independence dont really want this: they want to be dependent on EU, as opposed to UK. That's the truth of the matter.

 

But EU know the score, and have already told Scots Nats straight that they will not become part of EU.  And furthermore Scotland will need to go it alone for a number of years and present themselves with a neat set of books before being considered for acceptance.  Spain has already stated that it would block Scotland, but as usual Scots Nats don't accept a no means no.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, citybiker said:

 

 

No guarantee of EU acceptance...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

What in life is there a guarantee upon, other than death?

 

While Scotland rejoining the EU may not be a cast iron certainty, I think that we can be assured that: Brexit is going to go ahead; the chances of economic dissaray in its aftermath remain as stark as ever; Labour is going to remain a joke party; the Tories will continue to attack the poor while furthering their ongoing self-enrichment agenda for another decade at least. I know what direction I want to take.

[Goldpanner]

Shes trying to copy Ireland. Keep having referendums untill she gets the result she wants.

Not  a chance.!

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

It seems to me that Scotland voted against independence.  And those that do proclaim independence dont really want this: they want to be dependent on EU, as opposed to UK. That's the truth of the matter.

 

But EU know the score, and have already told Scots Nats straight that they will not become part of EU.  And furthermore Scotland will need to go it alone for a number of years and present themselves with a neat set of books before being considered for acceptance.  Spain has already stated that it would block Scotland, but as usual Scots Nats don't accept a no means no.

I think that your post is the perfect example of how headline skimming leaves one so terribly exposed. So much of what you wrote is simply unionist headline click-bait, but is missing the real facts because they are generally buried in paragraph 3 or later.

 

Firstly, note that NS has to ask TM for permission to hold a #indyref2. TM did not ask anyone in the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. Seems to me that the UK has a lot more leeway in the EU than Scotland has in the UK.

 

Your next point is a bit contradictory. You say that the EU has said that Scotland will not become part of the EU. Then you talk about the process of joining the EU. Which is it? Will we or won't we?

 

Finally, this Spain nonsense. If I got a Bank of Scotland pound note for every time I have had to educate people on TV about this point, I would have at least enough to buy you and me a pint each. Spain has stated that if Scotland secedes by UDI, they would veto Scotland's membership of the EU, however the Spanish Foreign Minister has expressly stated that if secession is achieved through a democratic and internationally approved process, then Spain would not object to Scotland joining the EU.

[Grouse]

57 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

Watched it when it was first released, great drama with the correct outcome. And I guess when you lived there the excitment was all over, unless of course you were around in 1746 which would be a bit off a stretch to believe. Quite how you can equate the persecuted Jews in Poland with a rebellion by the Scots against England, well guess that it Scottish obtuse thinking. Have a nice day and calm yourself down.

No quarter was given. Wounded men were tortured and slain under the direct orders of Stinking Billy, The Duke of Cumberland (son of James ll I think)

 

The feudal clansfolk were then hunted down and cleared out of their lands. Prince Charlie buggered off without even thank his lieutenants.

 

Shameful throughout.

 

For info, the Warsaw uprising was not only Jews (many having already been shipped to camps) no it was Poles rising up to reclaim their country. See the analogy?

[mommysboy]

19 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I think that your post is the perfect example of how headline skimming leaves one so terribly exposed. So much of what you wrote is simply unionist headline click-bait, but is missing the real facts because they are generally buried in paragraph 3 or later.

 

Firstly, note that NS has to ask TM for permission to hold a #indyref2. TM did not ask anyone in the EU to hold the Brexit referendum. Seems to me that the UK has a lot more leeway in the EU than Scotland has in the UK.

 

Your next point is a bit contradictory. You say that the EU has said that Scotland will not become part of the EU. Then you talk about the process of joining the EU. Which is it? Will we or won't we?

 

Finally, this Spain nonsense. If I got a Bank of Scotland pound note for every time I have had to educate people on TV about this point, I would have at least enough to buy you and me a pint each. Spain has stated that if Scotland secedes by UDI, they would veto Scotland's membership of the EU, however the Spanish Foreign Minister has expressly stated that if secession is achieved through a democratic and internationally approved process, then Spain would not object to Scotland joining the EU.

Yes, and quite rightly TM could refuse a referendum, on account that there has already been one recently, and there does not appear to be a compelling reason. 

 

When (if) UK drops out the EU then Scotland drops out too. In order to join Scotland will go through a protracted process to join the EU, which is by no means cut and dried, as Scotland would have to meet financial criterion which it cannot possibly do even after a number of years. The general consensus is that Spain, and others, will in any case block any attempt by Scotland to join the EU.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

TM could refuse a referendum, on account that there has already been one recently

She doesn't even need a reason - she can simply refuse. Again, the UK is walking away from the EU without requiring approval of the EU to do so. But the Scots need to go cap in hand to a government that has a single representative from Scotland in Westminster.

 

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Scotland would have to meet financial criterion which it cannot possibly do even after a number of years.

The first part is correct but the second part is meaningless conjecture dressed up to sound relevant. Cannot possibly? How do you know? A number of years? How many? 2? 20? 200?

 

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

The general consensus is that Spain, and others, will in any case block any attempt by Scotland to join the EU.

In 2014, the Spanish Foreign Minister told the FT, "If Scotland becomes independent in accordance with the legal and institutional procedures, it will ask for permission [to the EU]. If that process has indeed been legal, that request can be considered."

 

 

[whatawonderfulday]

14 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, and quite rightly TM could refuse a referendum, on account that there has already been one recently, and there does not appear to be a compelling reason. 

 

When (if) UK drops out the EU then Scotland drops out too. In order to join Scotland will go through a protracted process to join the EU, which is by no means cut and dried, as Scotland would have to meet financial criterion which it cannot possibly do even after a number of years. The general consensus is that Spain, and others, will in any case block any attempt by Scotland to join the EU.

Mommysboy. 

 

You realise of course that all the Sturgeon sycophants on TV will either disregard your facts as presented, or distort the facts and also go into total denial regarding what the process would need to be, which has already been spelt out to them, for Scotland to join the EU as an independent nation.  That being said this is all conjecture really as most likely Sturgeon's request for yet another referendum will be denied and in any event, according to the recent opinion polls,  the majority of Scots would vote not to leave the union.  It is really only the hard core nationalists who continue to beat their drum (and chests)  and no doubt will still be doing so in a 1000 years. ( Still taking the above national average social security handouts of course )

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

Mommysboy. 

 

You realise of course that all the Sturgeon sycophants on TV will either disregard your facts as presented, or distort the facts and also go into total denial regarding what the process would need to be, which has already been spelt out to them, for Scotland to join the EU as an independent nation.  That being said this is all conjecture really as most likely Sturgeon's request for yet another referendum will be denied and in any event, according to the recent opinion polls,  the majority of Scots would vote not to leave the union.  It is really only the hard core nationalists who continue to beat their drum (and chests)  and no doubt will still be doing so in a 1000 years. ( Still taking the above national average social security handouts of course )

Might I suggest that, rather than simply posting tired old tropes intended to create outrage (personally, I have seen them all before, and often with better grammar and syntax), you try to present some facts and arguments to back up your position? You have offered absolutley nothing in the way of argument - apart, of course, from when you suggested that English housewives will boycott expensive Scottish oil and buy their oil from elsewhere. Debate works best when you challenge facts with reason, not with ingorance.

[citybiker]

 
What in life is there a guarantee upon, other than death?
 
While Scotland rejoining the EU may not be a cast iron certainty, I think that we can be assured that: Brexit is going to go ahead; the chances of economic dissaray in its aftermath remain as stark as ever; Labour is going to remain a joke party; the Tories will continue to attack the poor while furthering their ongoing self-enrichment agenda for another decade at least. I know what direction I want to take.

Scottish Labour maybe a joke however the SNP's primary focus is cling on to the EU no matter what.

If that means breaking up and dividing the United Kingdom in her bonkers mindset & if Scotland prefers to be bossed by the EU rather than Westminster they've well & truly proved what a basket case party they really are.

TM won't allow any referendum until at least 2021, the SNP won't be denied it but a lot can change by then, the Scottish electorate won't suffer fools easily a 2nd time round.

My family will continue to vote no..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, citybiker said:

 

Scottish Labour maybe a joke however the SNP's primary focus is cling on to the EU no matter what.

If that means breaking up and dividing the United Kingdom in her bonkers mindset & if Scotland prefers to be bossed by the EU rather than Westminster they've well & truly proved what a basket case party they really are.

TM won't allow any referendum until at least 2021, the SNP won't be denied it but a lot can change by then, the Scottish electorate won't suffer fools easily a 2nd time round.

My family will continue to vote no..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think Brexit is a tool for Sturgeon and the SNP; independence is the main aim.

 

I think Scotland is much closer to European social democracy than Westminster.

 

Its not always about money. I think Scotland would fit in well with other EU countries and would set its economy accordingly.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

 

Scottish Labour maybe a joke however the SNP's primary focus is cling on to the EU no matter what.
 

 

They are following the will of the electorate - more Scots by percentage and majority voted to remain in the EU than to remain in the UK.

 

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

If that means breaking up and dividing the United Kingdom in her bonkers mindset & if Scotland prefers to be bossed by the EU rather than Westminster they've well & truly proved what a basket case party they really are.

I think that the UK is already hopelessly divided. Just look through this thread and read some of the comments from our southern friends and see how united we are. Personally, I would prefer an equal seat in Brussels than the current arrangement - maybe I am bonkers too.

 

4 minutes ago, citybiker said:

TM won't allow any referendum until at least 2021, the SNP won't be denied it but a lot can change by then, the Scottish electorate won't suffer fools easily a 2nd time round.

True - so let's hope they make a better case this time round. Last time, when the starting gun was fired, support for independence was at mid 20% and we had no looming Brexit / long-term Tory domination to fear. I think that, with independence polling at the high 40s, it is the SNP's to lose.

 

6 minutes ago, citybiker said:

My family will continue to vote no..

Isn't democracy a wonderful thing? 

[whatawonderfulday]

31 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Might I suggest that, rather than simply posting tired old tropes intended to create outrage (personally, I have seen them all before, and often with better grammar and syntax), you try to present some facts and arguments to back up your position? You have offered absolutley nothing in the way of argument - apart, of course, from when you suggested that English housewives will boycott expensive Scottish oil and buy their oil from elsewhere. Debate works best when you challenge facts with reason, not with ingorance.

Are those facts again, something you and your friends choose to ignore or distort. As far as criticising grammar etc, than perhaps you should be less hypocritical  and get your spelling correct.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

Are those facts again, something you and your friends choose to ignore or distort. As far as criticising grammar etc, than perhaps you should be less hypocritical  and get your spelling correct.

Which facts? The one about Spain vetoing a Scottish application to the EU? I have provided the clear and unambiguous position of the Spanish government as spoken by the foreign minister. Is that not enough for you?

 

Is there anything else you feel I have overlooked?

[overherebc]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

Well one hears some tripe on here but the above takes the prize for ignorance.

Well they are both Scots but the Hitler thing is a bit OTT.

[overherebc]

Did you know that Brown wanted a train named after him and the Museum offered the  'Flying Scotsman' as long as they could paint over the F.

PS.

I am a Jock myself.?

[the guest]

she's a dreamer.

[whatawonderfulday]

1 minute ago, overherebc said:

Did you know that Brown wanted a train named after him and the Museum offered the  'Flying Scotsman' as long as they could paint over the F.

The old "ones" are the best

[citybiker]

Isn't democracy a wonderful thing? 

So are you saying that the overall majority of Scots are happy to accept the Euro? It's a weak & unstable currency.

What will happen for example to the defence industry & other SME's who consider their business contingency/resilient plan & relocate to England, Wales or NI.

Has the SNP fully thought these consequences through or making it up as they go along just because TM refuses to give Scotland special privileges and treating the whole UK equally....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, citybiker said:

So are you saying that the overall majority of Scots are happy to accept the Euro? It's a weak & unstable currency.

 

 

The pound has proven to be hardly the currency of choice these days, as I know only too well. As for the euro, there is a requirement for member countries to plan to join, but the actual implementation of the Euro is dependent upon a raft of criteria being met, and as is clear, Scotland would not be in compliance at this point in time. Whether it is judged as favourable in the future is something beyond the ken of anyone here.

 

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

What will happen for example to the defence industry & other SME's who consider their business contingency/resilient plan & relocate to England, Wales or NI.

What about the companies planning on baling out of the UK now because they want to retain strong ties with Europe? Maybe we will benefit from those companies in rUK who want to move to Scotland to remain in Europe?

 

5 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Has the SNP fully thought these consequences through or making it up as they go along

Have you been following the omnishambles that is the Tory Brexit strategy? That is making it up as they go along. The SNP is much more professional than that shower of liars and turncoats.

 

6 minutes ago, citybiker said:

TM refuses to give Scotland special privileges and treating the whole UK equally....

Were you as critical of Thatcher, Major etc, when they negotiated special treatment for the UK within the EU? Why should an elected leader not follow the will of the electorate and fight for what they consider best for their country?

[citybiker]

Were you as critical of Thatcher, Major etc, when they negotiated special treatment for the UK within the EU? Why should an elected leader not follow the will of the electorate and fight for what they consider best for their country?

SNP being Professional ?

Many journalist are asking an SNP the same basic simple question:

"So not securing anything in writing from the EU in regards to membership is classed as professional, all we got yesterday was there is a feeling within the EU".

Brexit is unknown territory due to the old guard of Cameron & Osbourne arrogance & total expectation of remaining so the onnishambles is currently a clean sheet which TM is now dealing with.

Companies bailing is not to be confusing with subsidiary Europe locations.

Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell hit the nail on the head, it's a damn shame the abysmal SNP should drag itself out of 20 years of blaming Thatcher, major and the Tories and improve and focus on its own poor domestic governance.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk