British PM May to reject Scottish referendum demand - Times newspaper

[rockingrobin]

24 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

We can say that Spain would likely block any attempt for a long time, in order to dissuade Catalonia, and Basque region from doing the same.  It is too strong to assert that Spain will block Scotland for all time.  Disengaging from UK woiuld be just as fraught as Brexit.  Neither country is really in any sort of financial position not to be badly effected.

 

IMO, I could not see Scotland reaching EU membership for a decade or more.  People forget the financial requirements, which remain Scotland's biggest hurdle.  Oddly, in becoming independent, Scotland makes itself even more dependent than ever on UK. 

 

Maybe you can explain how Kosovo, who Spain and 4 other EU  members do not recognize, has managed to obtain an associate agreement with the EU

[Grouse]

29 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Sure, it is not as pure as say as Farage's bunch, but look the clue is in the party name. 

Looks like Farage's bunch are going down the pan. Their number 1 source of funds has quit to start a new party (Thanet Independence Party? TIP?)

[Baerboxer]

On 3/15/2017 at 5:52 PM, RuamRudy said:

Interestingly, the same survey that the Telegraph cites shows that support for independence is at its highest ever level.

 

"This is a higher level of support for independence than at any time since 1999, and double the level registered by ScotCen in 2012."

 

Here is how the National reports it:

 

 

Of course the highly ethical publication "The National" is simply and without any bias or hyperbole reporting a survey. Unlike those devious xenophobic fascist publications that refuse to acknowledge the soaring support for independence.

 

And no mention, ever, of the issues and resolutions to those issues that would occur. The Tories and some of their numpty "good old boys" are clearly clueless about the real issues issues and consequences of Brexit. Many of the SNP numpties are just the same about Scottish independence. Sturgeon does understand what it will mean, and appreciates some of the realities and probable consequences. But she chooses not to educate the numpties or their supporters as stopping the dream would loose her votes. 

 

 

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Maybe you can explain how Kosovo, who Spain and 4 other EU  members do not recognize, has managed to obtain an associate agreement with the EU

"To ensure stability at the territory and neutral rule of law enforcement, the EU is operating in Kosovo under the umbrella of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), deploying police and civilian resources under the European Union Rule of Law Mission (EULEX).

Negotiations for EU membership will only start once the country becomes an official candidate for membership. The Stabilisation and Association Agreement (SAA) between the EU and Kosovo was signed on 26 February 2016 and went into force on 1 April 2016.^[5]" 

^{Source Wikipedia.}

 

^{The somewhat unique circumstances resulting following the disintegration of Yugoslavia led to a number of exceptional circumstances including deployment of} 

Nato forces in peacekeeping roles.

 

Are you suggesting this in someway parallels Scotland and that EU military and police presence is likely to be required in Scotland? Police Scotland haven't exactly 

covered themselves with glory since their founding but I don't think it's so bad.

Note that Kosovo isn't actually an official EU membership candidate yet. 

Now perhaps you can explain something. Once all criteria have been met, including financial, a new member candidate has to be voted on by all member states and 

affirmed. One no vote and that's it. Do you think the 5 countries who don't recognize Kosovo will approve their membership?

 

 

[Baerboxer]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We do have people in Scotland who espouse the same type of views as Wilders, but they tend, funnily enough, to also be ardent unionists (SDL for example). There are the Siol nan Gaidheal nutters on the independence side who have equally odious views about maintaining racial purity etc, but they are so niche that they are almost invisible. I know next to nothing about them because they are virtually non-existent. If I had to liken the SNP to any other mainstream movement, I would be more inclined to compare them to the Pirate Party, where the wave of discontent that they ride on is inclusive, not exclusive.

 

Yes, the SNP are socialists as well as nationalists. A sort of Scottish National Socialist Party.

[Baerboxer]

10 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

You posted this shameful example of journalistic deceit on the other thread and I explained there that even the article itself doesn't back up the lie in the headline.

 

 

Well, Mrs. Sturgeon keeps on implying that Scotland must leave the UK before Brexit so Scotland can stay in the EU.

 

Even though the EC and EU say otherwise.

 

How shameful and deceitful do you want to get?

[mommysboy]

35 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Well, Mrs. Sturgeon keeps on implying that Scotland must leave the UK before Brexit so Scotland can stay in the EU.

 

Even though the EC and EU say otherwise.

 

How shameful and deceitful do you want to get?

Scots Nats have an abundance of principles.  So many in fact that they can afford to have one set for themselves, and another for everyone else!!!

Edited March 16, 2017 by mommysboy
typo

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

"To ensure stability at the territory and neutral rule of law enforcement, the EU is operating in Kosovo under the umbrella of the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), deploying police and civilian resources under the European Union Rule of Law Mission (EULEX).

Negotiations for EU membership will only start once the country becomes an official candidate for membership. The Stabilisation and Association Agreement (SAA) between the EU and Kosovo was signed on 26 February 2016 and went into force on 1 April 2016.^[5]" 

^{Source Wikipedia.}

 

^{The somewhat unique circumstances resulting following the disintegration of Yugoslavia led to a number of exceptional circumstances including deployment of} 

Nato forces in peacekeeping roles.

 

Are you suggesting this in someway parallels Scotland and that EU military and police presence is likely to be required in Scotland? Police Scotland haven't exactly 

covered themselves with glory since their founding but I don't think it's so bad.

Note that Kosovo isn't actually an official EU membership candidate yet. 

Now perhaps you can explain something. Once all criteria have been met, including financial, a new member candidate has to be voted on by all member states and 

affirmed. One no vote and that's it. Do you think the 5 countries who don't recognize Kosovo will approve their membership?

 

 

The parallels to be made are twofold, firstly Spains reasoning on its non recognition of Kosovo and the different outcome for Scotland

Secondly the EU is a political entity as well an economic block and finds solutions to problems that appear improbable

Thirdly in the unlikely event of Spain veto the EU and Scotland could make an associate agreement

[JAG]

18 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The parallels to be made are twofold, firstly Spains reasoning on its non recognition of Kosovo and the different outcome for Scotland

Secondly the EU is a political entity as well an economic block and finds solutions to problems that appear improbable

Thirdly in the unlikely event of Spain veto the EU and Scotland could make an associate agreement

Ummh, what would stop the Spanish Vetoing that idea as well?

[juice777]

Scotland will never get back in Europe anyway. Spain have already said the will veto it. Something about them being last on the list I suppose behind Turkey.

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[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, juice777 said:

Scotland will never get back in Europe anyway. Spain have already said the will veto it. Something about them being last on the list I suppose behind Turkey.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

 

Go back through this thread to read why you are mistaken about any Spanish veto.

Turkey has been on the list to join the EEC etc. since 1987. Are you suggesting that they have caused a log jam all this time?

[citybiker]

You posted this shameful example of journalistic deceit on the other thread and I explained there that even the article itself doesn't back up the lie in the headline.

Journalistic deceit?

I'm aware these journalists have a prime agenda however you yourself agreed that Scotlands fiscal status requires radical urgent overhaul.

Excuse if I missed anyone's reply however I did ask if the SNP planning on addressing this issue prior or post possible independence as I'm sure the electorate have a right to know.


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[juice777]

 
Go back through this thread to read why you are mistaken about any Spanish veto.
Turkey has been on the list to join the EEC etc. since 1987. Are you suggesting that they have caused a log jam all this time?

I am reading the Thread now but it is 13 pages. Not sure I have the time even if i don't get bored after 15 mins. Any chance you could tell me what post number it is. I am not suggesting they are causing a log jam. But if they are last on the list and Turkey are on that list. And no one wants Turkey what chance will Scotland have. Also I believe that all new European members have to take on the Euro.Will Scotland want to?

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[citybiker]

Scots Nats have an abundance of principles.  So many in fact that they can afford to have one set for themselves, and another for everyone else!!!

SNP hypocrisy?

Nah, I wouldn't believe that for a minute [emoji849]


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[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

 

Journalistic deceit?

I'm aware these journalists have a prime agenda however you yourself agreed that Scotlands fiscal status requires radical urgent overhaul.

Excuse if I missed anyone's reply however I did ask if the SNP planning on addressing this issue prior or post possible independence as I'm sure the electorate have a right to know.


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They are already taking action. The Tories and SLab, the opportunistic wreckers that they are, tried to block the last budget but the SNP with the assistance of the Greens forced through their proposal.

 

"Hundreds of thousands of middle-class Scots will pay an extra £400 income tax this year compared to workers earning the same salary in England after the SNP’s Finance Minister announced a surprise extra raid.Derek Mackay said the wage at which Scots start paying the 40p rate of income tax will be frozen at £43,000 in 2017/18 as part of a deal between the minority SNP administration and the hard-Left Scottish Greens to get his Budget passed.Around 370,000 Scots who are currently liable the higher rate of income tax will pay more than if they lived south of the Border, where the threshold is increasing to £45,000 in April."

 

They are also tackling local government spending.

 

Now, it is a matter of personal politics as to whether you think that they are using the right levers, and whether they are being used fast enough, but they are not sitting on their hands doing nothing.

 

[7by7]

On ‎15‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 0:41 PM, RuamRudy said:

It means what any person not intent on creating noise from nothing would infer - the English, being the significant majority in the union, will always hold the balance of power, whether it be the election of a Tory government, the Brexit debate or any other national plebiscite.

 So are you now saying that by 'English' what you meant was 'the majority?'

 

That is how democracy works, and the UK is a democracy.

 

But that does not mean the English always get their way. Far from it.

 

For example; outside of London and other large cities, most English constituencies historically return Tory MPs. Without the MPs from Scotland and Wales, the UK would never had had a Labour government! 

[rockingrobin]

46 minutes ago, JAG said:

Ummh, what would stop the Spanish Vetoing that idea as well?

Apologies my error  association agreement would require Spain approval.

On a separate issue , under international law Scotland would not inherit the UKs debt unless it was agreed as part of negotiations 

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, juice777 said:

I am reading the Thread now but it is 13 pages. Not sure I have the time even if i don't get bored after 15 mins. Any chance you could tell me what post number it is. I am not suggesting they are causing a log jam. But if they are last on the list and Turkey are on that list. And no one wants Turkey what chance will Scotland have. Also I believe that all new European members have to take on the Euro.Will Scotland want to?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

So, the popular misunderstanding goes that Spain will veto any attempt of an independent Scotland joining the EU because it will encourage the Catalans to secede. However, it has been clearly stated on several occasions by Spanish politicians that if Scotland breaks from the UK through a formal and legal process, i.e. not through UDI, then it will not object to Scotland's application to join the EU.

 

This article has a very disingenuous headline, but if you read it, it reveals that rather than blocking Scotland from joinng the EU, which is what it wants the headline browsers to take away, the Spanish Foreign Minister is quoted as saying, "It [Scotland] would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce". That is not a veto, that is the standard process of application, that should come as no surprise to anyone.

 

Scotland is not Turkey. Scotland already has the institutions, processes, even the laws required of a member of the EU. There are many reasons that Turkey has struggled to join the EU. Very few of those reasons could be attributed to Scotland.

 

As for the Euro, there are (I think) 9 EU members that are not in the Euro zone, but only 2 of those who have opt-outs. The rest are commited to join but have not formalised the process. Scotland could, if it chose, follow the same practice.

[Pikeybkk]

I wish the Scottish nation well in their quest to be released and form their own independent government. Every country has a right to be independent from another and manage their own affairs 100%.

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

For example; outside of London and other large cities, most English constituencies historically return Tory MPs. Without the MPs from Scotland and Wales, the UK would never had had a Labour government! 

 

This is from 2012, but clearly this has not turned on its head since then:

 

"-for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland's representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.

-on only TWO occasions, the most recent of them being 38 years ago, (1964 and the second of the two 1974 elections), have Scottish MPs given Labour a majority they wouldn't have had from England/Wales/NI alone."

 

 

[pegman]

On March 14, 2017 at 11:44 PM, Laughing Gravy said:

I don't think they will relocate.

They will and it will be to Glasgow should the Scots bolt the U.K.

Regardless there is no way in hell that the EU financial services industry stays in a non-EU country. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by pegman

[7by7]

Sturgeon cannot, as she is trying to do, guarantee that an independent Scotland will become a member of the EU; remember that it would take just one member to veto Scotland's membership.

 

Scotland would certainly not automatically retain membership as she and others have tried to imply. Scotland is not a member any more than England, Wales or Northern Ireland are. It is the UK as a whole that is a member.

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As for the Euro, there are (I think) 9 EU members that are not in the Euro zone, but only 2 of those who have opt-outs. The rest are commited to join but have not formalised the process. Scotland could, if it chose, follow the same practice.

But those countries are committed to joining the Euro at some point.

 

I asked in a different thread: but what options on currency would an independent Scotland have?

 

Keep Sterling and have their fiscal policy controlled by the Bank of England and Westminster?

 

Adopt the Euro and have their fiscal policy controlled by the EU?

 

Adopt their own currency?

 

No one has as yet answered; can you?

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

This is from 2012, but clearly this has not turned on its head since then:

 

"-for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland's representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.

-on only TWO occasions, the most recent of them being 38 years ago, (1964 and the second of the two 1974 elections), have Scottish MPs given Labour a majority they wouldn't have had from England/Wales/NI alone."

 

 

I said

 

34 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Without the MPs from Scotland and Wales, the UK would never had had a Labour government! 

Not just Scotland!

 

I deliberately left Northern Ireland out because, as we all know, voting there is mainly along sectarian lines.

[juice777]

So, the popular misunderstanding goes that Spain will veto any attempt of an independent Scotland joining the EU because it will encourage the Catalans to secede. However, it has been clearly stated on several occasions by Spanish politicians that if Scotland breaks from the UK through a formal and legal process, i.e. not through UDI, then it will not object to Scotland's application to join the EU.

 

This article has a very disingenuous headline, but if you read it, it reveals that rather than blocking Scotland from joinng the EU, which is what it wants the headline browsers to take away, the Spanish Foreign Minister is quoted as saying, "It [scotland] would have to join the queue, meet the requirements, go through the recognised negotiating system and the end result will be whatever those negotiations produce". That is not a veto, that is the standard process of application, that should come as no surprise to anyone.

 

Scotland is not Turkey. Scotland already has the institutions, processes, even the laws required of a member of the EU. There are many reasons that Turkey has struggled to join the EU. Very few of those reasons could be attributed to Scotland.

 

As for the Euro, there are (I think) 9 EU members that are not in the Euro zone, but only 2 of those who have opt-outs. The rest are commited to join but have not formalised the process. Scotland could, if it chose, follow the same practice.

From the link you sent my it don't sound like a good Deal if you ask me. It says there that They won't even have control over there own interest rates. What will that do for the price of the Average mortgage. And it could take years and they will have to have the Euro. I understand that the Scots want to stay in Europe I do to but at what price. For me I wouldn't want a bank in Germany in control of how much I pay on my 2 mortgages , Would you?

"The EU warns that joining as a full member “is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight”. That currently includes having to join the euro – meaning that, should Scotland get that far, it must wave goodbye to the pound. Control of interest rates and other monetary policy will be handled by the European central bank in Frankfurt. That is a lot farther away than London. It will also have to negotiate the size of its contribution to EU funds. And accession can be blocked by a single member state – like Spain, for example."

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[RuamRudy]

Just now, 7by7 said:

I said

 

Not just Scotland!

 

I deliberately left Northern Ireland out because, as we all know, voting there is mainly along sectarian lines.

Fair enough, cut the pie however you choose to try to make your point; it doesn't detract from the fact that the influence of Scottish voters on the compostion of Westminster is negligible.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, juice777 said:

From the link you sent my it don't sound like a good Deal if you ask me. It says there that They won't even have control over there own interest rates. What will that do for the price of the Average mortgage. And it could take years and they will have to have the Euro. I understand that the Scots want to stay in Europe I do to but at what price. For me I wouldn't want a bank in Germany in control of how much I pay on my 2 mortgages , Would you?

"The EU warns that joining as a full member “is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight”. That currently includes having to join the euro – meaning that, should Scotland get that far, it must wave goodbye to the pound. Control of interest rates and other monetary policy will be handled by the European central bank in Frankfurt. That is a lot farther away than London. It will also have to negotiate the size of its contribution to EU funds. And accession can be blocked by a single member state – like Spain, for example."

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Control of the interest rates now reside in London. Do you think that BoE and government policy is formed with the relatively sparsely populated Scotland in mind?

[whatawonderfulday]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

This is from 2012, but clearly this has not turned on its head since then:

 

"-for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland's representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change.

-on only TWO occasions, the most recent of them being 38 years ago, (1964 and the second of the two 1974 elections), have Scottish MPs given Labour a majority they wouldn't have had from England/Wales/NI alone."

 

 

Good to see that SNP supporters as usual have only the past to trawl up inconsequential statistics affecting 2017 politics.   That's the problem with them - they can never accept that people more wise than them entered into the 1703 union because they knew what was best for them. 300 years later we are seeing the Scottish extremists bleating about their abject failure to develop themselves into a patriotic part of the UK mainly I suppose because selfish self righteous attitudes. Of course Most Scots are great people, especially Glaswegians, but the fringe minority of the East coast and highlands bring shame to the rest of the Scots. Even the IRA has more understanding of fundamental principals than this bunch of Unionist wreckers.

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Fair enough, cut the pie however you choose to try to make your point; it doesn't detract from the fact that the influence of Scottish voters on the compostion of Westminster is negligible.

I was originally responding to your assertion that the English will always control everything because we will always hold the balance of power. As is obvious from the quote from you which I included.

 

I realise that your parochialism means you want to restrict yourself to just Scotland; but my comments were about the UK as a whole.

 

The UK is not just England and Scotland, you know!.

 

 

[7by7]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Control of the interest rates now reside in London. Do you think that BoE and government policy is formed with the relatively sparsely populated Scotland in mind?

No, it's formed with the whole of the UK in mind; even if one disagrees with that policy.

 

Except, of course, those areas which fall under the Scottish Parliament's remit.

 

Will you grace us with your opinion on

 

21 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

what options on currency would an independent Scotland have?

 

Keep Sterling and have their fiscal policy controlled by the Bank of England and Westminster?

 

Adopt the Euro and have their fiscal policy controlled by the EU?

 

Adopt their own currency?

 

Edit:

I'm logging off now, so you've until tomorrow morning UK time to think of an answer.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 7by7

[juice777]

Control of the interest rates now reside in London. Do you think that BoE and government policy is formed with the relatively sparsely populated Scotland in mind?

Probably not but do you not think they will have the same problem with Europe? From the link you sent me it sounds like Scotland will be giving away more of there Soventery then they have now. I actually don't really care if Scotland go independent. I want what is best for the UK. And I don't pretend to have the knowledge to know what that is. Saying that It dose strike me as unfair that they are even considering another referendum, If in the event of Scotland leaving the UK damages the rest of the UK. They voted to remain they shouldn't get another chance already. If I could see into the future and it wasn't going to Damage the UK I couldn't give a monkeys if they went independent. Actually I am surprised they didn't before I probably would have voted for Independence if I was Scottish. But they didn't so it's to late now

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