Thai wife refused entry on Thai passport?

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

At some crossing a Thai ID card can used to enter no mans land between the border checkpoints.

Might that not be good enough? Exit into no man's land using the foreign passport and then walk back into Thailand, after some shopping or a casino meal, using the Thai id card?

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Might that not be good enough? Exit into no man's land using the foreign passport and then walk back into Thailand, after some shopping or a casino meal, using the Thai id card?

Most of those crossings are only open for Thais to leave the country by showing their ID. At those a UK passport would not work.

Not sure but I think there is still a checkout for Thai's leaving to enter no mans land that gives them a piece of paper that needs to be shown when returning.

In reality the best option is to fly out and back to do the passport swap.

 

[sawadeeken]

I'm still thinking that it is worth the time to go to a local Immigration or the Main Bangkok Office to ask about it....... I mean, after all, these folks didn't have any criminal intent.......... so it is just a matter of correcting an 'error'........... Not so different from moving a long-term visa (eg: Retirement Visa) from an expired passport to a new passport........

I can't see how it could 'hurt' to just inquire...............

[Eff1n2ret]

Having read the original account, where the OP says that his wife on this occasion was entering to take up residence, my advice would be to do nothing. Her life in Thailand won't be affected in any way, and Immigration aren't going to come knocking on the door. She has a Thai passport, which presumably has no endorsements, so if she presents it the next time she leaves Thailand, particularly if using the electronic gates at BKK, I wouldn't mind betting nothing would happen. If she was held up, what would they do? Fine or ban? I don't think so, it would only serve to show up the incompetence of the officer who caused the problem in the first place. The visit stamp in her UK passport would be of no consequence as long as she never showed it to any Thai official. She's not obliged to try and undo the mistake by these border runs which others are suggesting.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Having read the original account, where the OP says that his wife on this occasion was entering to take up residence, my advice would be to do nothing. Her life in Thailand won't be affected in any way, and Immigration aren't going to come knocking on the door. She has a Thai passport, which presumably has no endorsements, so if she presents it the next time she leaves Thailand, particularly if using the electronic gates at BKK, I wouldn't mind betting nothing would happen. If she was held up, what would they do? Fine or ban? I don't think so, it would only serve to show up the incompetence of the officer who caused the problem in the first place. The visit stamp in her UK passport would be of no consequence as long as she never showed it to any Thai official. She's not obliged to try and undo the mistake by these border runs which others are suggesting.

I understand your arguments, but I disagree, and think extreme care should be taken in managing the situation. "involuntary" loss of Thai nationality is possible. Thai law has something akin to the following:

Quote

The following are grounds for involuntary loss of Thai citizenship: Person voluntarily acquires foreign citizenship.

It is not quite clear what happens if the rule is ignored (which it usually is) and, generally, this is not enforced. However, using the foreign passport could be treated as behaving like a non Thai if the wrong people became involved. At a minimum, I could imagine it becoming expensive to sort out.

I personally think the situation is potentially serious enough that I would talk to a good immigration lawyer to ensure the worst does not happen.

Edited March 26, 2017 by BritTim

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It will not work. It requires more that just an ID card to enter the other country. At some crossing a Thai ID card can used to enter no mans land between the border checkpoints.

Not possible. A border pass is required to enter Laos and it has to be stamped on the Thai side of the border to enter Laos.

As I surmised, there's a 'border pass' linked to the Thai ID card that issued by the Thai IO. This in effect becomes the temporary travel document that Lao IO recognizes for entry/exit and the Thai IO for re-entry.

 

I assume it is the same for Myanmar and Cambodia entry/exit on a Thai ID card where a temporary travel document is drafted by Thai IO from sighting the valid Thai ID?

Edited March 26, 2017 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

In reality the best option is to fly out and back to do the passport swap.

Agreed... but she would still have a Thai passport bereft of the all important exit stamp and the 'Arrival' portion of the TM6 card that is stapled to all departing Thai's passports would be linked to her UK passport. This is assuming she is required to complete both portions of the TM6 card before presenting it to the departure IO like they insist with foreigners? Maybe put the Thai passport information on the 'Arrival' card and hope the departure IO doesn't notice? At least she will have a TM7 with a departure stamp but still no Thai exit stamp in the passport.

 

Or is it a case of avoid the pedants at Phuket IO, so depart from there but make her international re-entry at Suvarnabhumi? I think Don Meuang may have some pedants working there!

 

Having the old Thai passport solves all this of course. It will have a departure stamp and any missing TM7 card is easily solved by having her fill out a new one; like they do with foreigners who have lost theirs.

[Geordie59]

The OP should have sorted this out at the airport when entering. An obvious lack of training has caused this situation.
The obvious solution would be to visit her local immigration office, get the entry in her UK passport cancelled and a replacement in her Thai passport. There will be somebody there who will know how to do this.
A similar situation came up with my 17 year old daughter a few years ago. She used her European upbringing to refuse to accept what the immigration guy said and eventually got her Thai passport stamped.

[NanLaew]

12 minutes ago, Geordie59 said:

... She used her European upbringing to refuse to accept what the immigration guy said and eventually got her Thai passport stamped.

Nice when they don't have this insipid, ingrained deference to anyone in a uniform. Well done that kid!

[ubonjoe]

56 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Agreed... but she would still have a Thai passport bereft of the all important exit stamp and the 'Arrival' portion of the TM6 card that is stapled to all departing Thai's passports would be linked to her UK passport.

As written by myself and others there is no requirement for those for a Thai to enter the country. Many have entered without a problem that did not have those. It is just a errant officer that caused the problem.

[Eff1n2ret]

3 hours ago, BritTim said:

. "involuntary" loss of Thai nationality is possible.

If the OP's wife  was born in Thailand to parents whose Thai nationality is not in dispute (i.e. they're not "Hill People" or something), there is no way she can "involuntarily" lose her Thai citizenship, although she could choose to renounce it. There are circumstances where nationality acquired by naturalisation or mixed parentage might be lost.  I don't think the "quote" you reproduced has foundation in any legislation.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Eff1n2ret said:

If the OP's wife  was born in Thailand to parents whose Thai nationality is not in dispute (i.e. they're not "Hill People" or something), there is no way she can "involuntarily" lose her Thai citizenship, although she could choose to renounce it. There are circumstances where nationality acquired by naturalisation or mixed parentage might be lost.  I don't think the "quote" you reproduced has foundation in any legislation.

I have carefully read the Thailand Nationality Act (as amended in 2008). In the case where both parents are undeniably Thai with no second nationality, I think you are correct that Thai nationality cannot easily be lost. For children of one Thai parent and one foreign parent, I would be concerned at the following:

Quote

Section 17 With respect to a person of an alien parent who was born within the Thai Kingdom and acquires Thai nationality, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:
(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;
(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;

 English translation: http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/506c08862.pdf

The above wording was actually added by the latest 2008 amendment, so there may well be an intent at enforcement in some cases. It appears that they are intended as separate conditions under which Thai nationality can be lost (i.e. "or" should be assumed). I think we need to be careful not to be alarmist about such matters but, even more so, I think we must be extremely careful not to provide false reassurance if real risks exist.

[ericthai]

12 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Most of those crossings are only open for Thais to leave the country by showing their ID. At those a UK passport would not work.

Not sure but I think there is still a checkout for Thai's leaving to enter no mans land that gives them a piece of paper that needs to be shown when returning.

In reality the best option is to fly out and back to do the passport swap.

 

I believe you are correct. I have seen at several land crossings thais  using ID cards are given a paper. That paper needs to be returned to get back in. 

[nss70]

Many thanks guys for all the input.

To clarify a few points that came up in the responses;

I did try to school my wife the best I could for any eventuality at Thai immigration.

I told her to take her old Thai passport, she left it behind.

She has a quaking fear of any uniformed officialdom so was easy meat for the IO.

I had told her to request a supervisor if there were problems, she did not.

 

From what I've read I think my oroginal assumption should be the first action to try i.e. go to a local immigration, request a ranking officer and explain there has been a "mistake" at the airport immigration.

I have already sent her copies of the Thai passport with all the stamp baring pages showing previous movements. She will go armed with these, both current passports. ID card and tambien bahn in the next day or two. She may even have a more knowledgeable and capable friend along with her.

 

Hopefully we can have her Thai passport marked and recorded for entry as a Thai citizen and the 30 day permission in the UK passport deleted from both the passport and the records.

[Maestro]

10 hours ago, BritTim said:

...For children of one Thai parent and one foreign parent, I would be concerned at the following...

 

Section 17 of the Nationality Act does not apply to a child who has at least one parent of Thai nationality, because such child did not acquire Thai nationality because it is "a person of an alien parent who was born within the Thai Kingdom". It acquires Thai nationality by birth under section 7, paragraph 1 clause (1), as amended by the Nationality Act (No.2) B.E.2535 (1992)  because it is a "person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality"

 

[dbrenn]

2 hours ago, nss70 said:

Many thanks guys for all the input.

To clarify a few points that came up in the responses;

I did try to school my wife the best I could for any eventuality at Thai immigration.

I told her to take her old Thai passport, she left it behind.

She has a quaking fear of any uniformed officialdom so was easy meat for the IO.

I had told her to request a supervisor if there were problems, she did not.

 

From what I've read I think my oroginal assumption should be the first action to try i.e. go to a local immigration, request a ranking officer and explain there has been a "mistake" at the airport immigration.

I have already sent her copies of the Thai passport with all the stamp baring pages showing previous movements. She will go armed with these, both current passports. ID card and tambien bahn in the next day or two. She may even have a more knowledgeable and capable friend along with her.

 

Hopefully we can have her Thai passport marked and recorded for entry as a Thai citizen and the 30 day permission in the UK passport deleted from both the passport and the records.

 

That's the best approach. Try to get it regularised at immigration HQ as a mistake made by an official who had no knowledge of the laws that he is supposed to correctly administer. It might also be worth paying for a couple of hours of a lawyer's time to go with her and do the talking if she is terrified of them. Tell them that you'll go to the Administrative Court if they try to give you the run around, like imposing an overstay fine on her UK passport or telling your wife that as a Thai citizen she has to do visa runs, or anything ridiculous like that.

 

I'm glad to see that the quaking fear that Thais have for officials is becoming less widespread. My wife doesn't hesitate to politely answer them back when they get it wrong, and it's something that I see more of these days.

 

[Eff1n2ret]

7 hours ago, nss70 said:

From what I've read I think my oroginal assumption should be the first action to try i.e. go to a local immigration, request a ranking officer and explain there has been a "mistake" at the airport immigration.

Well, good luck. Let us know how you get on.

[dentonian]

7 hours ago, nss70 said:

Many thanks guys for all the input.

To clarify a few points that came up in the responses;

I did try to school my wife the best I could for any eventuality at Thai immigration.

I told her to take her old Thai passport, she left it behind.

She has a quaking fear of any uniformed officialdom so was easy meat for the IO.

I had told her to request a supervisor if there were problems, she did not.

 

From what I've read I think my oroginal assumption should be the first action to try i.e. go to a local immigration, request a ranking officer and explain there has been a "mistake" at the airport immigration.

I have already sent her copies of the Thai passport with all the stamp baring pages showing previous movements. She will go armed with these, both current passports. ID card and tambien bahn in the next day or two. She may even have a more knowledgeable and capable friend along with her.

 

Hopefully we can have her Thai passport marked and recorded for entry as a Thai citizen and the 30 day permission in the UK passport deleted from both the passport and the records.

 

Do you know which office she will attend.

From my own experience, my local Immigration office are unable to deal with this kind of situation, but have been advised they must refer it to Bangkok. Not sure whether that's because they don't have an officer with the authority to correct the error, or records can only be amended in Bangkok.

 

Please keep us posted on the outcome of your wife's visit.

[Eff1n2ret]

54 minutes ago, dentonian said:

 

From my own experience, my local Immigration office are unable to deal with this kind of situation, but have been advised they must refer it to Bangkok.

I think you're probably right, but it's not a bad place to start. They should at least get some helpful advice there, and if possible the name and phone number of an officer in Bangkok sufficiently high-ranking to put some stick about.

[AGLV0121]

On 3/24/2017 at 8:11 PM, Phuket Man said:

exit with UK passport and re enter with Thai passport.

 

How will she explain Thai immigration that she has no exit stamp from Thailand on her Thai passport?

 

As suggested, talking with authorities and presenting evidence is the best approach.

 

Good luck, keep us posted.

Edited March 27, 2017 by AGLV0121

[jphasia]

Sorry to jump into this post.
I am going to Japan next week with my son for few days. He is 17 years old, was born in Thailand from Thai mother. He has 2 passports (French and Thai). Both of his passport a valid and blank (did not use since renew as he didn't go outside Thailand).
I assume he will use his Thai passport to exit Thailand and re-enter Thailand.
When enter Japan, should he use his Thai passport or French?
Both passport actually visa exempt for Japan.


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[sawadeeken]

28 minutes ago, jphasia said:

Sorry to jump into this post.
I am going to Japan next week with my son for few days. He is 17 years old, was born in Thailand from Thai mother. He has 2 passports (French and Thai). Both of his passport a valid and blank (did not use since renew as he didn't go outside Thailand).
I assume he will use his Thai passport to exit Thailand and re-enter Thailand.
When enter Japan, should he use his Thai passport or French?
Both passport actually visa exempt for Japan.


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Depends a lot on how long of a stay .......... If the stay is qualified for the Thai passport and he is arriving from Thailand........ then it seems beneficial to use the Thai passport.............

[jphasia]

Depends a lot on how long of a stay .......... If the stay is qualified for the Thai passport and he is arriving from Thailand........ then it seems beneficial to use the Thai passport.............

Ok. I was thinking that too. We will be there a week only. Thai passport are visa exempt for a month and French passport exempt for 90 days.
But i was wondering what would happen if:
He show his French passport on arrival in Japan without "exit visa" from Thailand.
He use his French passport when he enter Japan and then also when exit Japan but then when re-enter Thailand they might question why there are no entry/ exit stamp from Japan on his Thai passport...


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[sawadeeken]

1 minute ago, jphasia said:

 

Ok. I was thinking that too. We will be there a week only. Thai passport are visa exempt for a month and French passport exempt for 90 days.
But i was wondering what would happen if:
He show his French passport on arrival in Japan without "exit visa" from Thailand.
He use his French passport when he enter Japan and then also when exit Japan but then when re-enter Thailand they might question why there are no entry/ exit stamp from Japan on his Thai passport...


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I have taken my 'Thai' GF on many foreign excursions with her 'Thai' passport............. Never a problem leaving on a Thai passport  and returning on a Thai passport............. I have family who have Thai, USA, and New Zealand passports....... and have experience with this........

Just think about what the 'Immigration' where you are going will be thinking........... never mind flashing the fact that you have other options................

[dentonian]

It really doesn't matter which passport you enter and exit Japan on, although French as father and son would make sense.

 

Definitely exit and re-enter Thailand on his Thai passport.

They aren't looking for entry/exit stamps from other Countries as not all Countries use stamps.

[sawadeeken]

4 minutes ago, dentonian said:

It really doesn't matter which passport you enter and exit Japan on, although French as father and son would make sense.

 

Definitely exit and re-enter Thailand on his Thai passport.

They aren't looking for entry/exit stamps from other Countries as not all Countries use stamps.

True.......... The USA don't stamp us in and out............

[jphasia]

True.......... The USA don't stamp us in and out............

That's right. I think France also in not stamping in and out for French passport (haven't been back to France 20 years more) and it make sense that the Thai immigration are not much concern about the others country.
He will give a try by presenting his French passport in Japan.


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[nss70]

Update.

 

Immigration in Patong was tried with the most senior officer there.

They still refused to change anything stating that last marked exit on a Thai passport was too long ago (18 years) and therefore didnn't count.

 

So it seems what ever excuse they want to come up with will do in their eyes.

 

She is going try Phuket town, hoping for a better result.

 

I don't suppose any learned fellow here might know a section of Thai law that would cover the problem, to the tune of "no citizen to be refused entry to the kingdom of Thailand when showing a Thai passport"?

[stevenl]

I see as the only practical solution to leave and fly in again.

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[Maestro]

Update.

 

Immigration in Patong was tried with the most senior officer there.

They still refused to change anything stating that last marked exit on a Thai passport was too long ago (18 years) and therefore didnn't count.

 

So it seems what ever excuse they want to come up with will do in their eyes.

 

She is going try Phuket town, hoping for a better result.

 

I don't suppose any learned fellow here might know a section of Thai law that would cover the problem, to the tune of "no citizen to be refused entry to the kingdom of Thailand when showing a Thai passport"?

 

It is generally considered unwise for a dual Tai national to use the non-Thai passport for entry into and departure from Thailand. Nevertheless, the immigration official at the entry point had no legal right to deny your wife entry with her Thai passport, and the official at the immigration office was wrong to say that this denial was justified by the long interval since your wife's last use of her Thai passport to leave Thailand.

 

The wise thing to do would have been to call the immigration hotline 1178 in the presence of these immigration officials and it is still advisable call this number now.

 

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