Scottish Parliament backs independence referendum call

[webfact]

Scottish Parliament backs referendum call

 

EDINBURGH: -- Nicola Sturgeon's call for a second referendum on independence for Scotland has been formally backed by the Scottish Parliament.

 

MSPs voted by 69 to 59 in favour of seeking permission for a referendum before the UK leaves the EU.

 

Ms Sturgeon says the move is needed to allow Scotland to decide what path to follow in the wake of the Brexit vote.

 

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39422747

 

-- © Copyright BBC 2017-03-29

[jesimps]

Irritating, like an attack of piles.

[RuamRudy]

 

IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum

"Bookmakers make it odds-on that a second Scottish Independence Referendum will take place, and it has also been predicted that Scotland will vote for independence when the vote does take place."

[ukrules]

As it stands now, Scotland as part of the UK is leaving the EU.

 

If they have their referendum (again) and decided to leave the UK they would automatically leave the EU as has been confirmed by the EU itself. Any breakaway 'new states' are automatically non members of the EU. This applies to the various other regions of EU countries which are also seeking independence like in Spain for example.

 

They don't want to leave the EU but there is no avoiding this as independence means leaving the EU.

 

The fact that the UK deciding to leave the EU is being used as another excuse for a referendum and potential power grab by the SNP is quite amazing as to get independence would mean leaving the EU. It's nonsense.

 

[7by7]

In 2014 the SNP promised that the referendum would be a once in a lifetime choice.

 

They renaged on that promise following the Brexit vote in the 2016 referendum saying that the result of that changed everything because Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

 

But, as ukrules rightly says, if Scotland leaves the UK, it also leaves the EU; whatever the result in 2016 had been.

 

The government have not dismissed the idea of another Scottish independence referendum out of hand. Scottish Parliament backs referendum call

Quote

But the UK government has already said it will block a referendum until after the Brexit process has been completed.

Prime Minister Theresa May, who met Ms Sturgeon for talks in Glasgow on Monday, has repeatedly insisted that "now is not the time" for a referendum.

 

Her Scottish secretary, David Mundell, has said that the timescale could include "the Brexit process, the journey of leaving and people being able to understand what the UK's new relationship with the EU is, so they can make an informed choice if there was ever to be another referendum".

 

Which is surely the right decision.

 

If there is another Scottish independence referendum then the Scottish people must have all the facts. This obviously includes what the UK's relationship will be with the UK post Brexit.

 

In other words, will Scotland be better off remaining in the UK post Brexit or leaving the UK and seeking EU membership?

 

But Sturgeon doesn't want that; she wants another independence referendum in 2018 or 2019; before the full terms of Brexit are known.

 

I have to wonder why.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by 7by7

[i claudius]

Because she is scared that it will all work out in our favour and she will lose her job

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum

"Bookmakers make it odds-on that a second Scottish Independence Referendum will take place, and it has also been predicted that Scotland will vote for independence when the vote does take place."

Well one thing you should take into consideration. What if many, if not the majority decide to ignore this opinion poll. On the other hand IF 86% of the Scottish electorate do decide to place their X, and a majority goes with the SNP's recommendation, then and only then, will you have a point.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Well one thing you should take into consideration. What if many, if not the majority decide to ignore this opinion poll. On the other hand IF 86% of the Scottish electorate do decide to place their X, and a majority goes with the SNP's recommendation, then and only then, will you have a point.

 

 

86%? That seems a bit unfair, considering only 36% of the UK electorate supported Brexit...

[nontabury]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

86%? That seems a bit unfair, considering only 36% of the UK electorate supported Brexit...

Please read again. I said if 86% go to the (opinion) poll and place a X. Then if a Majority of those people do vote "yes. then so be it.

[7by7]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

86%? That seems a bit unfair, considering only 36% of the UK electorate supported Brexit...

 What is your point?

 

Are you saying that an abstention in a referendum should be counted as a vote for the status quo?

 

If so, then as only 36% of those eligible to vote in the 2014  Scottish independence referendum voted 'Yes' then the SNP's defeat was even greater than the 44.7% of votes they did receive!

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Please read again. I said if 86% go to the (opinion) poll and place a X. Then if a Majority of those people do vote "yes. then so be it.

 

Apologies - I did indeed misread your post. My only excuse was that the lion rampant made me misty eyed.

 

Anyway, we have a precedent set now. I see no reason to introduce a whole new set of rules.

[Flustered]

There is a very good reason why Scotland should have no say in the Brexit negotiations.

 

"Baby Doll" Sturgeon has made it quiet clear she is not interested in the outcome and wants a referendum before the agreement is made known.

 

Why then should Scotland have any say in the negotiations if she is not interested in the outcome?

Edited March 29, 2017 by Flustered

[sanukjim]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

As it stands now, Scotland as part of the UK is leaving the EU.

 

If they have their referendum (again) and decided to leave the UK they would automatically leave the EU as has been confirmed by the EU itself. Any breakaway 'new states' are automatically non members of the EU. This applies to the various other regions of EU countries which are also seeking independence like in Spain for example.

 

They don't want to leave the EU but there is no avoiding this as independence means leaving the EU.

 

The fact that the UK deciding to leave the EU is being used as another excuse for a referendum and potential power grab by the SNP is quite amazing as to get independence would mean leaving the EU. It's nonsense.

 

So Scotland leaves the UK to try to make it on it's own.Their major income is the north Sea oil and as the world is discovering more oil,and many countries are turning more to alternative energy sources the income from oil will continue to go down . After Scotland finishes the building of The UK's newest aircraft carrier Then what will their industry will be in decline. How does Scotland expect to finance it self ?

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, sanukjim said:

So Scotland leaves the UK to try to make it on it's own.Their major income is the north Sea oil and as the world is discovering more oil,and many countries are turning more to alternative energy sources the income from oil will continue to go down . After Scotland finishes the building of The UK's newest aircraft carrier Then what will their industry will be in decline. How does Scotland expect to finance it self ?

 

They just want power.

[MartinL]

Elsewhere it's been reported that, if Northern Ireland ever voted to unite with the Irish Republic, it would automatically become an EU member since it'd be joining with an existing EU member state.

 

Maybe Sturgeon et al should consider asking for Scotland to become part of Ireland.

 

[daveAustin]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum

"Bookmakers make it odds-on that a second Scottish Independence Referendum will take place, and it has also been predicted that Scotland will vote for independence when the vote does take place."

About as effective as polls. The bookmakers also overwhelmingly leant towards remaining in EU.

 

I'm all for them leaving, but independence is not being beholden to the EU, i.e., they won't be independent. Regards Sturgeon and her crony friends - like that other insufferable mouthpiece, Salmond - it is all about hatred for England and severing ties through sour grapes. I can partly see that, too, and would want the same if Scotland were pulling England's strings, but the problem here is the millions of switched-on Scots who are going to end up with the shaft.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

About as effective as polls. The bookmakers also overwhelmingly leant towards remaining in EU.

 

I'm all for them leaving, but independence is not being beholden to the EU, i.e., they won't be independent. Regards Sturgeon and her crony friends - like that other insufferable mouthpiece, Salmond - it is all about hatred for England and severing ties through sour grapes. I can partly see that, too, and would want the same if Scotland were pulling England's strings, but the problem here is the millions of switched-on Scots who are going to end up with the shaft.

Hello Dave. Please be assured that I don't hate you. None of my friends hate you. NONE of the pro-Independence campaigning or material I have ever seen has expressed hatred for you. In fact, the only hatred I ever see is from people who I assume to be English, and who make very unkind remarks against Scots politicians specifically, but also about Scottish people in general (on TVF we have been called, without qualification, idiots, scroungers, whingers, ungrateful etc). Check any TVF thread and try to objectively look for evidence of hatred. If you can be truly objective, then I think that you will agree with me. There exists a lot of hatred in this debate, but the bulk flows south to north. Of course, as has been demonstrated since biblical times, hate begets hate, so while I hope we Scots, in the main, never sink to those levels, I fear that the continued spewing of bile will have a negative response before too long.

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

They just want power.

Is that not what Brexit was about, a notion of regaining soveriegnty?

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, sanukjim said:

So Scotland leaves the UK to try to make it on it's own.Their major income is the north Sea oil and as the world is discovering more oil,and many countries are turning more to alternative energy sources the income from oil will continue to go down . After Scotland finishes the building of The UK's newest aircraft carrier Then what will their industry will be in decline. How does Scotland expect to finance it self ?

It seems that you are merely basing your argument upon your lack of knowledge of the Scottish economy. Is there something a little more robust in there?

If all we have is oil and a boat that we are building, how could the UK government publish data that showed that, excluding oil and gas, Scotland's GVA exceeded that of every other part of the UK except the SE of England? If what you claim is true, by God, those other regions must be in trouble.

[nontabury]

39 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Hello Dave. Please be assured that I don't hate you. None of my friends hate you. NONE of the pro-Independence campaigning or material I have ever seen has expressed hatred for you. In fact, the only hatred I ever see is from people who I assume to be English, and who make very unkind remarks against Scots politicians specifically, but also about Scottish people in general (on TVF we have been called, without qualification, idiots, scroungers, whingers, ungrateful etc). Check any TVF thread and try to objectively look for evidence of hatred. If you can be truly objective, then I think that you will agree with me. There exists a lot of hatred in this debate, but the bulk flows south to north. Of course, as has been demonstrated since biblical times, hate begets hate, so while I hope we Scots, in the main, never sink to those levels, I fear that the continued spewing of bile will have a negative response before too long.

Was there not a recent case,were a member of the SNP came out and blatantly expressed hatred toward those nasty English. Resulting in N.S. Refusing to criticising her friend.

[nontabury]

54 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It seems that you are merely basing your argument upon your lack of knowledge of the Scottish economy. Is there something a little more robust in there?

If all we have is oil and a boat that we are building, how could the UK government publish data that showed that, excluding oil and gas, Scotland's GVA exceeded that of every other part of the UK except the SE of England? If what you claim is true, by God, those other regions must be in trouble.

And again I ask, what is Nicola Sturgeon make of the Scottish economy? Perhaps you could have a word with her. You never know,she may appoint you as one of her economic advisors. Replacing Geoff Aderdein, Crawford Beveridge, Alex Bell SNP in addition to others that I've previously mentioned. All of whom do not seem to agree with your future  assessment of the Lion economy.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

54 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Was there not a recent case,were a member of the SNP came out and blatantly expressed hatred toward those nasty English. Resulting in N.S. Refusing to criticising her friend.

I will be honest that I do not know - can you link to it? I am not suggesting that it is improbable, but it would be very disappointing if true.

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, nontabury said:

And again I ask, what is Nicola Sturgeon make of the Scottish economy? Perhaps you could have a word with her. You never know,she may appoint you as one of her economic advisors. Replacing Geoff Aderdein, Crawford Beveridge, Alex Bell SNP in addition to others that I've previously mentioned. All of whom do not seem to agree with your future  assessment of the Lion economy.

 

 

I don't think I made any claims about our economic potential other than trying to convey the fact that we are very far from lagging the UK in terms of output, and that we are not a one-trick pony.

 

Maybe, in reply, you can explain to me what is unique about Scotland that means that it would be unable to maintain a viable economy? Why, for example, can similar sized countries such as Norway, Finland, Denmark New Zealand etc, function as successful, developed countries, but Scots are doomed to fail in their attempt?

[Baerboxer]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

IndyRef2 odds: Scotland odds-on to vote for independence in second Scottish Independence Referendum

"Bookmakers make it odds-on that a second Scottish Independence Referendum will take place, and it has also been predicted that Scotland will vote for independence when the vote does take place."

 

And Clinton was odds on to win the POTUS election

And the UK was certain to vote to remain in the UK

And the Tories weren't going to win the last election

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

Quite frankly, and sadly for the majority of Scots who voted in what was promised to be a once in a lifetime referendum to remain in the UK, Sturgeon will happily take them over a bigger cliff than the Tories. But at least they'll be "free" and she can create even more limelight for herself.

[Baerboxer]

17 hours ago, ukrules said:

As it stands now, Scotland as part of the UK is leaving the EU.

 

If they have their referendum (again) and decided to leave the UK they would automatically leave the EU as has been confirmed by the EU itself. Any breakaway 'new states' are automatically non members of the EU. This applies to the various other regions of EU countries which are also seeking independence like in Spain for example.

 

They don't want to leave the EU but there is no avoiding this as independence means leaving the EU.

 

The fact that the UK deciding to leave the EU is being used as another excuse for a referendum and potential power grab by the SNP is quite amazing as to get independence would mean leaving the EU. It's nonsense.

 

 

In 2014 the SNP were quiet happy to leave the EU to get independence. They knew then as the know now applying for EU membership isn't a quick process nor is it automatic. 

Their one and only aim is to breakaway from the UK and create a country where they can rule; and they're not bothered about any consequences.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And Clinton was odds on to win the POTUS election

And the UK was certain to vote to remain in the UK

And the Tories weren't going to win the last election

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

Quite frankly, and sadly for the majority of Scots who voted in what was promised to be a once in a lifetime referendum to remain in the UK, Sturgeon will happily take them over a bigger cliff than the Tories. But at least they'll be "free" and she can create even more limelight for herself.

While I don't agree with your assessment, I would sooner suffer a bumpy landing concocted in Edinburgh, than a much bigger one concocted in Downing St. Do nothing and we are guaranteed to get more of the same and worse.

[Baerboxer]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

86%? That seems a bit unfair, considering only 36% of the UK electorate supported Brexit...

 

And a lesser % of the UK electorate supported remaining.

 

So what?

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

While I don't agree with your assessment, I would sooner suffer a bumpy landing concocted in Edinburgh, than a much bigger one concocted in Downing St. Do nothing and we are guaranteed to get more of the same and worse.

 

It might be one hell of a bump with the SNP because up to now Sturgeon has avoided any answers to questions other than blaming Westminster, trying to divert the question to one about the UK or glossing over.

 

We know all politicians bullshit, lie and pretend when it suits. But as a supporter, please outline what their policies will be.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

It might be one hell of a bump with the SNP because up to now Sturgeon has avoided any answers to questions other than blaming Westminster, trying to divert the question to one about the UK or glossing over.

 

We know all politicians bullshit, lie and pretend when it suits. But as a supporter, please outline what their policies will be.

Their policies are not some SNP-only secret - go to their website and read for yourself.

Get a hold of the whitepaper that they published in 2014. Probably some is due for an update, if they haven't done so already, but much will remain valid.

 

But all this obsessing over the SNP, trying to turn the debate into a personality contest, is very tiresome. I can remember an SNP slogan from the 70s or 80s that went "Vote for us and we'll resign".

There is no reason to suppose that the SNP will be the future of an independent Scotland, any more than there was a reason to suppose Farage was going to lead the UK to the promised land. In fact, there is no reason to suppose that the SNP will remain a cohesive party once independence is achieved.

[Baerboxer]

14 hours ago, Flustered said:

There is a very good reason why Scotland should have no say in the Brexit negotiations.

 

"Baby Doll" Sturgeon has made it quiet clear she is not interested in the outcome and wants a referendum before the agreement is made known.

 

Why then should Scotland have any say in the negotiations if she is not interested in the outcome?

 

She's trying everything to get center stage, look really relevant, and be involved in things above and beyond her responsibilities. 

 

She has shown herself to be indiscreet and somewhat economical with the truth, even lying on occasion. 

 

No sane person would trust her to be part of a team negotiating Brexit when her independence agenda, her prime agenda, would benefit by a the worst possible Brexit terms. Who would trust her not to be giving information to the EU in the hope of securing special considerations for Scotland. 

 

Scotland, like all the home nations has a say through it's parliamentary representation. The Scottish parliament, like assemblies and councils are free to comment but not part of the process.