Special Report: Phuket hospitals facing huge losses from uninsured patients

StevieAus · April 19, 2017

18 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

If you go to the UK you do not necessarily get the treatment for free they will certainly treat you and will not turn patients away however they will seek to recover the costs if you are not a resident or other categories as defined

Recently watched a documentary where it showed hospitals have big problems with unpaid bills from overseas visitors to the extent that many have a staff member whose role is to try and get the money.

Australia has a reciprocol arrangement whereby citizens can get emergency treatment ( as defined) however does not apply to Thailand.

moe666 · April 19, 2017

18 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

Yes, we all know Thai safety standards are not up to standards but do not blame Thais for the actions of some 20 year old who hires a big bike while sobber and then rides and dies later in the day after consuming a case of beer.Or the guy who runs off the rode and has a broken leg or two because he has never ridden a scooter. No need to place the blame else where and leave the idiot tourist blameless. Put the blame where it belongs nine out of ten times on the fella laying in the hospital bed for bad decisions.

prakhonchai nick · April 19, 2017

I was visiting a patient in my local government hospital last evening. She had paid 800bt/day for a private room. Quite nice with aircon, fan, TV, microwave, wifi etc.

However she said the 800bt rate was for people (presumably Thais) paying themselves. If insurance was involved, the price was 1,200bt/day. Dont know the rate for farangs!

JayBird · April 19, 2017

Farangs Death Project

Sounds like an ominous goal to kill us all.

abab · April 19, 2017

For sure I am going to cry for any hospital in this country !!!

davidst01 · April 19, 2017

18 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

You forget that people come here because its not a nanny state with 'health and safety' etc etc. Get insured or pay up if you travel here. Its daft to say that the govt should step up and pay.

johnarth · April 19, 2017

15 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Sensible for tourists of course - but what would you suggest for the nearly 3 million resident expats who already live here, many of whom have lived here for ten years or more, are over the 70, have pre-existing conditions and are unable to buy health insurance in Thailand.

quite so, and a fact that every body seems to be missing, if the driver of offending machine is drunk, has no licence, or was speeding, weather or not you have insurance, your not covered. by most.

TallGuyJohninBKK · April 19, 2017

Special report???

It seems to me I've read pretty much this exact same story in past years here, coming out of Phuket. Perhaps it's an annual exercise for the PR/marketing staff there as their way to claim that they need more money.

That said, there does need to be a better solution for foolish farangs who come to Thailand on vacation with no or inadequate medical insurance, especially for accident coverage.

But if anyone's waiting for the Thai government to come up with a good solution to this one, good luck and keep waiting.

notmyself · April 19, 2017

18 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

Best post I have read in a long while.... maybe this year. Cheers.

DavisH · April 19, 2017

2 hours ago, trawler said:

In order to get a Schengen visa for my Thai wife I had to prove that we had a minimum of Euro 30000 health insurance coverage.This applies to all Thais applying for visa's to Europe.So whats wrong with requiring that tourists to Thailand have similar coverage??????

If you wish to live in a foreign country where you are ineligible for local health care then surely you have either health insurance or self cover.

This is common sense and stating that lots of expats here cannot get coverage is not a excuse for becoming a burden on a foreign country.

This nanny state mentality is becoming so pervasive that people are not thinking anything through for themselves.

You would be surprised (or not) at how many long term expats have no / inadequate insurance - especially for cases where their employer does not provide it. Fortunately my wife is a civil servant so I am covered along with my son. Others are not so fortunate. It just makes no sense to not have insurance.

notmyself · April 19, 2017

Dear Thailand: It is the price you pay when you move from a third world country to a second or first. Delusions of grandeur

Kwasaki · April 19, 2017

Can't be bothered reading through maybe said already if it's that bigger problem it would make sense not to let tourists in Thailand unless they show travel insurance at check out or make them have to buy insurance at the airport.

blu · April 19, 2017

I am constantly embarrassed by the racist & inflamatory comments by ex pat subsribers to thia visa. If it is so bad here then please just leave.

realenglish1 · April 19, 2017

A simple Fix Require all tourists to have travel health insurance To obtain a Schengen visa Thais are required to have Health insurance when traveling to Europe

So its is no big deal regardless if a visa is or is not required

Have Immigration requests health insurance certificates upon entering the country and if someone does not have a booth that sells it at the airport and direct them there

and report back to Immigration after they get it

Its really that simple

ujayujay · April 19, 2017

Its a Fact: Many Westerner Expats and Tourists are that naiv to think, it is not necessary to have a Insurance. Think: Whats about your Homecountry; is this common? It is an insolence to demand that thailand pay for uninsured foreign patients, because the insurance costs are too high for some of those. what a silly argument.

smedly · April 19, 2017

1 hour ago, moe666 said:

Yes, we all know Thai safety standards are not up to standards but do not blame Thais for the actions of some 20 year old who hires a big bike while sobber and then rides and dies later in the day after consuming a case of beer.Or the guy who runs off the rode and has a broken leg or two because he has never ridden a scooter. No need to place the blame else where and leave the idiot tourist blameless. Put the blame where it belongs nine out of ten times on the fella laying in the hospital bed for bad decisions.

sorry but I do blame Thais for that, he should never have been allowed to hire the bike in the first place, go to the UK (were laws are enforced) and try to hire a big motorbike - unless you have a proper licence and take out insurance you have no mission because you would be breaking the law and even then try riding said motorbike without a helmet plastered out of your head speeding around the city center like a lunatic and you will end up in jail

I 100% do blame Thailand

digger70 · April 19, 2017

Why not make it compulsory for everyone that travels to Thailand or any other country that one must have Travel insurance for their duration of their Holiday stay,and foreigners living in other countries the government of that country should make the same insurance possible as for their own people instead of the Ripoff insurance that one has or can't pay because one can't get a decent Insurance in that country ,like Thailand.

ujayujay · April 19, 2017

19 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

Nonsense. There are a lot of drunk foreign motorcyclists who had an accident here, which say the opposite. Your comment is biased and pushes all blame to the host country. Misery.

notmyself · April 19, 2017

3 minutes ago, blu said:

I am constantly embarrassed by the racist & inflamatory comments by ex pat subsribers to thia visa. If it is so bad here then please just leave.

I hear you with regard to embarrassment. I've read every post on this short thread at least twice and there is nothing at all that can be called racist and because of that I'm embarrassed for my specie.

Kwasaki · April 19, 2017

25 minutes ago, realenglish1 said:

tourists to have travel health insurance

I thought just inexpensive travel insurance covered accident & health.

Psimbo · April 19, 2017

Interesting that there is no comment from the two big private hospitals and we know why. You can be hemorrhaging blood all over the place and they'll be trying to stick a pen in your hand. Hence the comment about the man being turned away.

They are more interested in milking the insurance companies, which in turn raises premiums and deters people from taking out insurance. Audit their charges, get them down to reasonable rates and reflect this in premiums- same thing happens all over the world though and it isn't going to change. If you get a free expat card from them and pay cash prescription charges are 15% less and rooms about 50%- courtesy of inflated prices to the insurance companies.

For overseas visitors a lot of the problems lie in the small print- for example, they may think they are insured for motorbike accidents but in a lot of cases they are not. This is when the likes of Vachira has to take a hit. Again this shows the part insurance companies play in the process- they are very good at taking money but very reluctant to pay it out and will use every trick in the book.

For some treatments both Vachira and Mission have been shown to be better than the two others (IIRC a birth at Mission is about 40k). I understand the German consultant at Vachira is excellent.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Psimbo

little mary sunshine · April 19, 2017

Every visitor should be charged for travel or health

insurance. Perhaps 250B per week..to be paid with

their entry visa. Part of the problem solved.

All retirees must give peoof of health insurance or,

in order to get an O or O-A Visa for retirement they

should be required to put an additional B800,000 in

an account specifically for hospitalization. If you

don' have the required B65K per month you would

need to have 1.6M in accounts to retire to Thailand.

This should help with the outstanding bills from

foreigners. It should also help send a lot of the

low class riff-raff to other SE Coumtries making

Thailand a nicer place to retire.

Psimbo · April 19, 2017

3 minutes ago, little mary sunshine said:

Every visitor should be charged for travel or health

insurance. Perhaps 250B per week..to be paid with

their entry visa. Part of the problem solved.

All retirees must give peoof of health insurance or,

in order to get an O or O-A Visa for retirement they

should be required to put an additional B800,000 in

an account specifically for hospitalization. If you

don' have the required B65K per month you would

need to have 1.6M in accounts to retire to Thailand.

This should help with the outstanding bills from

foreigners. It should also help send a lot of the

low class riff-raff to other SE Coumtries making

Thailand a nicer place to retire.

What a bigoted and ignorant reply.

So- send people to other countries with an even lower level of health care and lack of resources thereby putting a strain on those resources. Farkin brilliant!

StevieAus · April 19, 2017

5 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Do the math, it's a higher number. Let's just deal with the 4.3 million baht from last year.

The money had to come from somewhere and it was the general operating budget. The deadbeat patients inflict harm on others and are a threat to public safety.

Vachira Phuket Hospital is a 503 bed general hospital providing medical care to those Thais who are unable to afford the higher end pay private hospitals. Vachira already operates on a shoestring budget struggling to serve a growing population with diverse and complex needs. The patients are typically the poor, and economically marginalized. They are the elderly, the low paid workers and anyone else who has limited financial means. When deadbeat patients fail to pay, the money has to come from somewhere and that means vulnerable sick Thais. Some poor kid is denied a non critical surgery, or an old granny's thyroid cancer goes undiagnosed because she can't access the necessary tests.

The hospital has shortages of specialized physicians and other technical specialists because the hospital cannot pay their salaries. The hospital cannot use some tests and modern equipment to treat some patients because it does not have the funds to pay for it. This is what happens when people do not pay their bills.

Where did you come up with 3 million? Try a number of legal foreign residents at less than 500,000. There may be many more, but those are illegal undocumented people like Myanmar and Cambodian quasi slave labour. Of the legal residents, a majority still avail themselves of their homeland's health services.

You are wrong when you state that people over the age of 70 who have pre-existing conditions are unable to buy health insurance in Thailand. it is available, but these people do not accept the premium, nor the conditions of coverage. One can obtain coverage if one isn't greedy and and uses common sense. The way to do this is;

1. Consider the use of a large deductible or retention.

2. Accept the fact that no insurer is going to cover cancer if one is undergoing treatment or had a cancer in remission. Don't expect an insurer to cover a heart attack in someone who has had one already.

3. Understand that an insurance policy is a risk transfer contract where one party purchases the risk of the other for a price. If the person trying to offload the risk thinks the insurer is charging too much, then fine, the person can keep his risk.

Uninsured western patients in Thailand have typically been people who should not have been in Thailand, or who have lived a hand to mouth existence.. If you want to live in a country like Thailand, you need to be able to accept the costs that go along with it. If you cannot, go home and live in a sheltered society.

Congratulations you have hit the nail on the head there are too many expats living here who believe Thailand owes them a living and constantly complain about anything and everything.

We are here as guests and if you don't like the system the answer is simple go back to your own country where you can enjoy the better standard of living possibly including free medical treatment.

free123 · April 19, 2017

20 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

so ,you say in GB hospitals are free for tourists...??? hey I dont think so ... off what i heard in television and read in various newspapers over the last ten years paints a complete different picture...yes the GB health service was among one of the best in the world where everybody would receive free treatment tourists and locals alike.....but these days are long , very long gone, today their system over there seems to be so lousy even locals have to travel to Germany to do certain operations cause only the very very rich will be prefered cause they pay cash the rest is almost as worst off than in a third world country....correct me if i am wrong....

elgordo38 · April 19, 2017

20 hours ago, smedly said:

This country makes a huge amount of money from tourists, it is a vital part of GDP and has been the case for decades, the problem is that there are no safety standards or at least they are not enforced making Thailand (no matter how much they claim otherwise) and extremely dangerous place to holiday.

The costs quoted in the OP are not only tiny but are very likely exaggerated, when you consider the actual cost in terms of labour and materials without profit it is no where near what they are quoting.

Yes people should have insurance when they go on holiday but equally there is a duty of care to keep visitors safe when they visit Thailand, when they are injured through no fault of their own then Thailand should be willing to step up and compensate.

They have gotten away with this for far too long, they have had decades to improve things but instead stuffed the money in their greedy pockets showing no consideration to improve their health and safety.........and yes I for once agree in this instance of that commonly used Thai phrase - well if they hadn't come to Thailand it wouldn't have happened so it must be their fault, might be time for people to rethink their holiday destinations.

If a Thai goes to the UK on holiday they will be treated in hospital like everyone else, the difference being that the likelihood of something happening to them is vastly different.

So a few million here and there .................so what, you are making trillions in tourism.

Yes they make trillions on tourism but that is incoming. That is the only figure that matters. They hate like the devil to part with it.

notmyself · April 19, 2017

14 minutes ago, smedly said:

sorry but I do blame Thais for that, he should never have been allowed to hire the bike in the first place, go to the UK (were laws are enforced) and try to hire a big motorbike - unless you have a proper licence and take out insurance you have no mission because you would be breaking the law and even then try riding said motorbike without a helmet plastered out of your head speeding around the city center like a lunatic and you will end up in jail

I 100% do blame Thailand

Every few months I pop down to Penang (from Samui) and am always struck by the fact that everyone is wearing a helmet. It comes across as being outside the norm I guess? I remember when my sister was over a couple of years back and we were walking down the road. Whoa.... she said, and told me to look over. All I saw (being close to home) was the usual rows of coconuts . There were also macaques running up and down but I didn't even see that because it is usual. What I mean to point out is the word 'usual' or 'norm' and how someone can be alerted to the absence of something and not just the introduction of something. There was, in effect, an absence of people riding around with no helmets which is the norm for me but the addition was that the law regarding wearing one is upheld. I'm not sure I an blame Thailand but I am 100% confident I can say they are complicit. So lets move on from here and look into what that means.....

Definition of Hypocrite

1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

Shall we push even further back and find the cause for the hypocrisy? I'm not going into this because I might get article 44'd.

Time Traveller · April 19, 2017

ore fake news. OR are we seriously led to believe that $123,000 in unpaid bills for the entire year is a HUGE loss for a hospital ?. Because anyone that has run a business with more than a handful of staff knows that that is the cost of running a business. Some people don't pay......get over it.

The Thai media (and some wierdo posters on this forum) seem completely focused on trying to blame foreigners for everything negative that happens in this country. Even this meaningless amount is blown way out of proportion.

But before the TV wierdos going pointing out the fact that these people got treatment for free, I'd like to hear how much the same hospital got in revenue from the foreign patients it did treat ?

elgordo38 · April 19, 2017

6 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Do the math, it's a higher number. Let's just deal with the 4.3 million baht from last year.

The money had to come from somewhere and it was the general operating budget. The deadbeat patients inflict harm on others and are a threat to public safety.

Vachira Phuket Hospital is a 503 bed general hospital providing medical care to those Thais who are unable to afford the higher end pay private hospitals. Vachira already operates on a shoestring budget struggling to serve a growing population with diverse and complex needs. The patients are typically the poor, and economically marginalized. They are the elderly, the low paid workers and anyone else who has limited financial means. When deadbeat patients fail to pay, the money has to come from somewhere and that means vulnerable sick Thais. Some poor kid is denied a non critical surgery, or an old granny's thyroid cancer goes undiagnosed because she can't access the necessary tests.

The hospital has shortages of specialized physicians and other technical specialists because the hospital cannot pay their salaries. The hospital cannot use some tests and modern equipment to treat some patients because it does not have the funds to pay for it. This is what happens when people do not pay their bills.

Where did you come up with 3 million? Try a number of legal foreign residents at less than 500,000. There may be many more, but those are illegal undocumented people like Myanmar and Cambodian quasi slave labour. Of the legal residents, a majority still avail themselves of their homeland's health services.

You are wrong when you state that people over the age of 70 who have pre-existing conditions are unable to buy health insurance in Thailand. it is available, but these people do not accept the premium, nor the conditions of coverage. One can obtain coverage if one isn't greedy and and uses common sense. The way to do this is;

1. Consider the use of a large deductible or retention.

2. Accept the fact that no insurer is going to cover cancer if one is undergoing treatment or had a cancer in remission. Don't expect an insurer to cover a heart attack in someone who has had one already.

3. Understand that an insurance policy is a risk transfer contract where one party purchases the risk of the other for a price. If the person trying to offload the risk thinks the insurer is charging too much, then fine, the person can keep his risk.

Uninsured western patients in Thailand have typically been people who should not have been in Thailand, or who have lived a hand to mouth existence.. If you want to live in a country like Thailand, you need to be able to accept the costs that go along with it. If you cannot, go home and live in a sheltered society.

A long read with make sense parts. It shows the other side of the coin. Thailand makes a ton of money on tourists who come to have a risk free holiday. To have this kind of income you have to have some outlay it is not a one way street. Its the human nature of things. Some of the infrastructure which provides the entertainment is marginal in quality and maintenance unbeknownst to the unwary traveler. Yes in an ideal world travelers should/would have medical insurance but then we do not live in an ideal world as we have shown by our poor choice in politicians among other poor choices. It is what it is no superfluous comments will ever change it. We can beat this horse to death till only the hooves are left but nothing will change till governments take their gaze off of non beneficial items like military expenditures and apply the monies in the right direction.

teddog · April 19, 2017

5 minutes ago, notmyself said:

Every few months I pop down to Penang (from Samui) and am always struck by the fact that everyone is wearing a helmet. It comes across as being outside the norm I guess? I remember when my sister was over a couple of years back and we were walking down the road. Whoa.... she said, and told me to look over. All I saw (being close to home) was the usual rows of coconuts . There were also macaques running up and down but I didn't even see that because it is usual. What I mean to point out is the word 'usual' or 'norm' and how someone can be alerted to the absence of something and not just the introduction of something. There was, in effect, an absence of people riding around with no helmets which is the norm for me but the addition was that the law regarding wearing one is upheld. I'm not sure I an blame Thailand but I am 100% confident I can say they are complicit. So lets move on from here and look into what that means.....

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

Shall we push even further back and find the cause for the hypocrisy? I'm not going into this because I might get article 44'd.

Dunno know 'bout anyfink, but I enjoy a fair bit of ding-dong..keeps the ticker in good health,would not get that back at 'ome

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