British PM May calls for early election on June 8

[Wallander4]

Well done putting the election at Ramadan

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Labour, the mighty Lib Dems, the Greens, the Scot Nats - a 'soft Brexit' coalition in the making. Hopefully this horrible woman's lies and political expediency will be her, and the "nasty" Tories', downfall.

The problem is (IMO obviously) that a 'soft brexit coalition' can only result in the EU ensuring a far worse deal for the UK, as they wont have the possible option of a 'hard brexit' hanging over their heads.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, champers said:

All 56 SNP MPs abstained. Democracy inaction.

Lets hope they all abstain when it comes to voting for a Brexit deal!

[dick dasterdly]

33 minutes ago, aslimversgwm said:

The LIberal Democrats of course. The  only party + the SNP which have consistently been opposed to Brexit. And article 50 is not irreversible if a deal can't be made brexit will not happen - end of story.

I'm so glad you added "end of story" as it always makes me realise the folly of other arguments .

 

Its always possible that if only a very bad deal is on offer, the UK can leave without any deal at all - i.e. hard brexit.

Edited April 20, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, champers said:

Labour and the Lib Dems need to forge a strategic partnership if they want the Tories out. Labour candidates should stand down where there is a good chance of  Lib Dem beating a Tory and vice-versa. This arrangement can only truly work in England and Wales. The SNP would be forced into a corner; failure to join a Labour / Lib Dem alliance would be akin to supporting the Tories.

Will this scenario play out? I doubt it.

Not convinced that those who voted 'leave' will be overly happy about this obvious attempt to thwart the referendum result, and may well vote Tory even if they would normally have voted Labour.

 

Edit - the more I think about it the more I realise that May has played a blinder!

Edited April 20, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[citybiker]

There is talk of the Greens not standing in Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale as a way of helping the SNP unseat David Mundell, the only Tory MP in Scotland, and other possible strategic constituencies. 

 

Has the SNP ruled out an alliance with LibLab? If they were offered what they want, I see no reason why they would reject it. 

 

 

 

Corbyn has already ruled out a coalition.

 

Sturgeon unsurprisingly wants a coalition.

 

The Green's are labelled as SNP lite.

 

 

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[nontabury]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I was thinking she could maybe have a go at explaining this:

 

 

 Why should She? After all she's a Labour member.

 Yet for some strange reason,you are unable to explain the discrepancies in the made up figures of John Swinny,deputy first leader of Scotland,previously the leader of the SNP.

 

 

[Grouse]

On 19/04/2017 at 0:46 PM, Grouse said:

I think the result will depend upon the numpties waking up. These people thought Brexit would improve their lot; it won't of course. I can see greater inequality and increasing imbalance of capital and labour together with lower living standards than would otherwise be the case.

 

Of course other Brexiteers, the b*st*rds, will still want to forge ahead to make more at everyone else's expense.

 

The xenophobic Brexiteers will stay with it, it's too early for them to see that immigration isn't going to decrease. I think May's Great England will need more, not less, labour.

 

The Little Englander Brexiteers will stick with it, whatever the cost

 

Finally, there will be another year's worth of first time voters and many more young people are going to get out of bed this time.

 

Interesting times, but I have hope!

 

(pity about Corbyn; he's the main risk! - he could end up getting blamed for Brexit)

 

 

Update

 

TM is now softening her stance on reducing immigration limits. She will also remove students from the statistics. This is the correct thing to do but it will drive some of the more rabid xenophobic Brexiteers into the UKIP camp. I hope this helps split the right wing and open a few doors for Lib Dems and Labour centrists

Edited April 20, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

What opposition?

You chaps all Tories now?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

It does not matter what you want or the Liberal Undemocratic Party led by Tim but Dim. The British people have voted to leave - end of story.

In what way are the Liberal Democrats undemocratic. Please enlighten us. Politely.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Update

 

TM is now softening her stance on reducing immigration limits. She will also remove students from the statistics. This is the correct thing to do but it will drive some of the more rabid xenophobic Brexiteers into the UKIP camp. I hope this helps split the right wing and open a few doors for Lib Dems and Labour centrists

Do you have a link?  Not that it would suprise me, but I'd appreciate a link to May already stating that she's already softening her stance on open borders.  Or are you talking about immigration limits from other countries?

 

As far as I can make out UKIP has disintegrated, so not sure how "the more rabid xenophobic Brexiteers" will end up in the UKIP camp?  More likely the Tory camp?

[Grouse]

59 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Judging by how swiftly UK politics develop's 'end of story' would be factually incorrect.

A brief browse of the EU's red lines could well mean a no deal is a stark possibility & the U.K. Reverting to WTO.

As for the Liberal Democrats + SNP?

Opposing Brexit is a right of view & choice. Abstaining a vote in many eyes is clearly seen as weak, obtrusive and unwilling to adapt to changes.




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Indeed. The election is a precursor to crashing out in response to EU "intransigence" if The Con Party win. Standby for slashed corporation tax, crashing GBP, booming FTSE and matched with austerity measures. Pass the port!

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm so glad you added "end of story" as it always makes me realise the folly of other arguments .

 

Its always possible that if only a very bad deal is on offer, the UK can leave without any deal at all - i.e. hard brexit.

Possible? It's the Con Party's aim.

 

BTW, soft Brexit was leaving but retaining membership of the single market and customs union. Hard Brexit was leaving both but negotiating a new deal. The Con Party want neither solution. Don't say I didn't warn you. When cattle are waiting at the abattoir, you think they forecast what's going to happen? I can smell it....

Edited April 20, 2017 by Grouse

[RuamRudy]

 

29 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Why should She? After all she's a Labour member.

 Yet for some strange reason,you are unable to explain the discrepancies in the made up figures of John Swinny,deputy first leader of Scotland,previously the leader of the SNP.

 

 

I was referring to the PM, the lady who is most definitely for turning. 

 

As for Sweeney, I am disappointed that the, undoubtedly, scrupulous and impartial editor of the piece didn't reference any of his data. Can you provide the references?

 

However, ultimately it comes down to the supposed deficit. When the experts point out that it is based upon flawed use of data, it would be wise, would it not, to avoid placing too much faith in that lest one be accused of fear mongering. 

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Indeed. The election is a precursor to crashing out in response to EU "intransigence" if The Con Party win. Standby for slashed corporation tax, crashing GBP, booming FTSE and matched with austerity measures. Pass the port!

You may well be right and I'm worried about the same thing.

 

But when I'm in a more optimistic mode I hope that the referendum result helped the (ignored) electorate realise that they DO have a voice and they don't have to accept the 'status quo'.

 

Unlikely, but we live in hope!

 

Edit - In the short term, its likely to make the Tory party think twice about annoying the ignored portion of the electorate in the near future .

Edited April 20, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Do you have a link?  Not that it would suprise me, but I'd appreciate a link to May already stating that she's already softening her stance on open borders.  Or are you talking about immigration limits from other countries?

 

As far as I can make out UKIP has disintegrated, so not sure how "the more rabid xenophobic Brexiteers" will end up in the UKIP camp?  More likely the Tory camp?

The Times today

 

I think some Brexiteers, the xenophobic variety will now tend to be more attracted to UKIP because of their more extreme immigration stance. Probably more labour deserters than Tories I guess. It all helps though ?

[dick dasterdly]

44 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Update

 

TM is now softening her stance on reducing immigration limits. She will also remove students from the statistics. This is the correct thing to do but it will drive some of the more rabid xenophobic Brexiteers into the UKIP camp. I hope this helps split the right wing and open a few doors for Lib Dems and Labour centrists

Time will tell whether this plays into the hands of the Tory party, or whether its only "numpties" who think that it will play into the hands of UKIP and Labour.

 

Quite possible though that the Lib Dems may benefit.

 

After the General Election, we can all start arguing again about voting being restricted to the 'intelligent' 50%' .

[vogie]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

In what way are the Liberal Democrats undemocratic. Please enlighten us. Politely.

Why do you say "politely" tiz you that has the reputation for being ill mannered and discourteous.

 

Why are the Lib Dems undemocratic, well the British people decided by a democratic vote to leave the EU, the Lib Dems have said that they will do everything in their power to over turn that result, would you agree that is by anybodys standards 'undemocratic' And surely you as a self confessed intelligent intellectual you must have little faith in Tim Farron, he is a total embarrassment to the country and his party. And as for Jeremy Corbyn, I am sure he means well, but as the great Maggie said "the problem with socialism is that eventually run out of other peoples money" 

 

So I have enlightened you in the past and I hope sincerely you are equally enlightened today, if not there is no hope for you.

 

 

[Lokie]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not convinced that those who voted 'leave' will be overly happy about this obvious attempt to thwart the referendum result, and may well vote Tory even if they would normally have voted Labour.

 

Edit - the more I think about it the more I realise that May has played a blinder!

I have never voted Tory in my life, but at the moment I am seriously considering it (something I never thought I would do) and so do a lot of historical Labour voters in Manchester (Labour stronghold) a lot of people are talking about voting for the Tories as they do not see other parties as viable alternatives at the moment and the mere mention of Corbyn brings on laughter and a few other choice words...

 

I think the Tories and the Libdems will take lots of votes from Labour

[citybiker]

The Times today
 
I think some Brexiteers, the xenophobic variety will now tend to be more attracted to UKIP because of their more extreme immigration stance. Probably more labour deserters than Tories I guess. It all helps though [emoji846]

In fairness UKIP's primary role is basically complete, we're officially leaving the EU (despite in denial Farron et al determined to obstruct).

UKIP will likely struggle, many of their staunch core voters will vote for the party however the moderate's will return to the Conservatives to ensure Brexit is delivered.

UKIP as a party has to focus on being much more professional, including policy review and do whatever's possible to shake off the 'one policy party' mindset.


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[sandyf]

Looks like Gina Miller had something brewing and TM got wind of it.

 

"Ms Miller said the hadn’t been time to organise  “a formal progressive alliance,” so “we have to do what we can in the time available. We need to re-energise people about the importance of voting tactically.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-general-election-latest-tactical-voting-best-for-britain-article-20-new-group-mps-a7692121.html

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Why do you say "politely" tiz you that has the reputation for being ill mannered and discourteous.

 

Why are the Lib Dems undemocratic, well the British people decided by a democratic vote to leave the EU, the Lib Dems have said that they will do everything in their power to over turn that result, would you agree that is by anybodys standards 'undemocratic' And surely you as a self confessed intelligent intellectual you must have little faith in Tim Farron, he is a total embarrassment to the country and his party. And as for Jeremy Corbyn, I am sure he means well, but as the great Maggie said "the problem with socialism is that eventually run out of other peoples money" 

 

So I have enlightened you in the past and I hope sincerely you are equally enlightened today, if not there is no hope for you.

 

 

Well that's very big of you Vogie! Good to see that you appreciate irony. And thanks for the enlightenment! I feel highly illuminated!

 

We dont agree with you. How is that undemocratic? It's not like following orders! Maybe people change their minds? Maybe people don't like TM's stance?

 

How is it undemocratic to seek to overturn a referendum vote by democratic means?

 

Corbyn is an oaf, at least we can agree on that

 

I think TM's weakening position on immigration will force some of the xenophobic branch of Brexiteers towards UKIP and I hope that splits the right wing vote.

 

Why is Farron an embarrassment? Menzies Campbell would have been better I agree. Actually Vince Cable would be great!

Edited April 20, 2017 by Grouse

[citybiker]

Looks like Gina Miller had something brewing and TM got wind of it.
 
"Ms Miller said the hadn’t been time to organise  “a formal progressive alliance,” so “we have to do what we can in the time available. We need to re-energise people about the importance of voting tactically.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gina-miller-general-election-latest-tactical-voting-best-for-britain-article-20-new-group-mps-a7692121.html
 

Insufficient time? Tsk

She had enough time to drag the Government through the courts though. (I thought females were the best to multitask?)

Oh dear, never mind..


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[Basil B]

5 hours ago, Basil B said:

It was only decided on Monday...

 

No, this has been in the planning for a long time, Now we know why George Osborn accepted a full time job that would conflict with his parliamentary duties but would not resign at the time, A by-election would not have been good for the Tories.

 

So if Osborn knew who else did?

I suppose for not rocking the boat he will get a peerage so he can call by Westminster to sign on for his £300 per day + expenses on his way to work.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Basil B

[brewsterbudgen]

It does not matter what you want or the Liberal Undemocratic Party led by Tim but Dim. The British people have voted to leave - end of story.

The British people were misled. There's nothing undemocratic about giving them another vote, when it's clear and transparent what they're voting for. After all last year's referendum was already the second one on Europe. Brexiters claim the people were misled in 1975, just as they were misled and lied to in 2016.

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

The British people were misled. There's nothing undemocratic about giving them another vote, when it's clear and transparent what they're voting for. After all last year's referendum was already the second one on Europe. Brexiters claim the people were misled in 1975, just as they were misled and lied to in 2016.

The British people were not misled, they were asked a very simple question, do you wish to remain within the EU or leave. There was nothing complicated about the question, the majority voted to leave. The only people that are complaining are the people who wished to remain. We all need to get behind Mrs May and give her the full support she truly deserves, instead of all this back stabbing.

[lungbing]

Yes the British people were misled.  they were told the economy would collapse, nobody would deal with them etc etc.  Project Fear it was called and we saw through it.

[Grouse]

44 minutes ago, vogie said:

The British people were not misled, they were asked a very simple question, do you wish to remain within the EU or leave. There was nothing complicated about the question, the majority voted to leave. The only people that are complaining are the people who wished to remain. We all need to get behind Mrs May and give her the full support she truly deserves, instead of all this back stabbing.

Sadly, a large proportion of the British people did not understand the ramifications.

 

There's no backstabbing; it's front stabbing now ?

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sadly, a large proportion of the British people did not understand the ramifications.

 

There's no backstabbing; it's front stabbing now ?

Any action will have ramifications, thats how it works. I can only reiterate that the question was stay or go, we chose to leave, so lets get on with it. Nobody will know the "ramifications" for 2 years to come or even years after that. Do you know the ramifications of leaving the EU yet, of course you don't, nobody does. Lets just be grateful we have a strong leader in Mrs May. 

[brewsterbudgen]

Any action will have ramifications, thats how it works. I can only reiterate that the question was stay or go, we chose to leave, so lets get on with it. Nobody will know the "ramifications" for 2 years to come or even years after that. Do you know the ramifications of leaving the EU yet, of course you don't, nobody does. Lets just be grateful we have a strong leader in Mrs May. 

And that's why the British people should have the final decision once the terms of Brexit have been agreed and the actual ramifications are known.