Cabinet endorses broad spying powers for Thai police

[RocketDog]

1 hour ago, aslimversgwm said:

Well said sir. Succinctly points up the difference between the UK & US v Thailand.

An independent judiciary is the keystone and the separation of powers generally, which do not appear to operate too well here and despite the current US administration is still clearly operative in the USA.

Rrally? Have you heard of the Civil Forfeiture law that is being heartily embraced by the police in America to buy more army toys to play pretend soldier with?

Check it out and get back to me please.

[commie]

Funny. Thai cops have been given the right to do what cops in the so called "free world" do for many decades and immediately whining starts. 

[manhood]

Spiying power for police is also in western countries more and more possible: but in a democratic and controlled country by media and their poeple i wont mind!

 

But this is in Thailand to open the door for more curroption done by the police. Thailand is far from a democratic based and controlled country. So neither you can trust the courts, not the jugdes, far from trust into any aciton done by the police!!! Yes its a junta state still and nothing will change anyway. with or without elections!!!!!!!!!

[RocketDog]

Read about the new rage with police in the good ole USA.

It's perfectly legal for cops to seize any cash you admit to having with you.

Coming to other countries near you soon as the "world moves forward".

https://www.nestmann.com/lp-nm-sp-ucf-0417

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[gandalf12]

3 hours ago, faraday said:

Why the outrage from some people?

 

The NSA & GCHQ have been doing this & more for years.

The way GCHQ do it is slightly different. They look for key words in messages and conversations. Anything without a key word is ignored.

[baboon]

4 minutes ago, commie said:

Funny. Thai cops have been given the right to do what cops in the so called "free world" do for many decades and immediately whining starts. 

So expressing concern about increased police powers under a coup government - who regularly takes people away for "Attitude Adjustment" sessions - with no oversight is "whining", is it? Jesus Christ, this forum at times...

[aussienam]

From what I can interpret based only from the article is that these intercept powers are not broadening pre-existing ones, rather legislating the use of new powers. If that is the case then this is a good thing in my opinion. All advanced nations have intercept legislation to gather evidence and it is extremely useful. All these alarmist police power comments are exaggerated. Anyone who has experience in this area knows how much time and effort is required to meet benchmarks to firstly gain approval for the intercepts, then there is equipment, monitoring costs, charges by service providers and manpower needed to monitor, review and interpret conversations, or analyse data. It's not just a matter of a supposedly vengeful police officer wanting to tap someone's number at his or her whim. That is for the movies. I would prefer Thailand to have these powers for law enforcement. Military intell/spy agencies would already have this.
So all the paranoids here, just relax, you'll be fine.

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[Jimbo1964]

I would have thought most countries by now are spying on their citizens. So nothing new in the world of increasing governmental control. George Orwell was right just the date was off.

 

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”  ― George Orwell, 1984

[rkidlad]

45 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Are you joking? Thailand is moving forward precisely like the rest of the world now! You don't think they dreamed up this whole surveillance thing by themselves do you?

 

I'm not clear on how you think that the world is moving forward. Certainly not in the ways of freedom, human rights, or privacy.

 

We are all penned sheep waiting to be sheared and milked. Don't think sheep can be milked? Ah, that's where technology comes in handy.

Okay, we're all moving backwards, except I'm not. As long as in my country I have freedom to speak and criticize, I know I'm not moving backwards.

 

As a progressive, I know exactly what's going on. The joys of looking to the future as opposed to holding onto the past. 

[aussienam]

Those that present argument and include UK, USA etc. are correct of course but what I see is the danger of incompetent people running such as system. At least in other countries mentioned you can be sure they have real experts to do the job and they still enforce other laws as part of a daily job (traffic, criminal etc.). If there was more confidence in RTP doing a good job elsewhere then indeed, the innocent need not worry. Sadly, I don't think that is the case.

Yeah but it's a start at least. And theoretically what's the worst that could come out of an abuse of power on an intercept not legally applied for? And also if that information was obtained illegally/incorrectly then what use could it be for the authorities anyway?
Of course one could suggest it could be used for blackmail/extortion due to embarrassing/illegal/immoral activities by corrupt authorities but even if this did happen it would be rare. The data and paper trails in setting up intercepts is extensive and needs multi agency and service provider cooperation.

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[spacebass]

20 hours ago, darksidedog said:

And so the move towards a police state continues and innocent people should be worried about that.

Was that a move from an undocumented polce state to a documented police state ?

[sead]

But they still can't do shit about end to end encryption clients.

 

[worgeordie]

George Orwell,was spot on, the whole World seems hell bent on

surveilling ,withdrawing the public's rights,it seems to Governments

their real enemies are its own citizens,all under the encompassing  

word of security,    bullocks

regards worgeordie

Edited April 27, 2017 by worgeordie
correction

[mtls2005]

This should be handy monitoring those on the "wrong" side of the political divide.

 

The ISOC already has this capability and sufficient legal power to do this; I doubt that the police have the necessary means presently.

 

It would be interesting to hear about those cases which have been unsuccessfully prosecuted because the police lacked this authority/capability.

 

 

[MarkusAUST]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

because the authorities would only target criminals accused of grave offences.

And how are they going to know EXACTLY who the criminals are BEFORE they have done their spying?

They will spy on anyone and everyone.

[elgordo38]

21 hours ago, webfact said:

but police promised that ordinary people would not be affected, because the authorities would only target criminals accused of grave offences

How does that song go "promises promises that's all I ever get" Based on their past track record we are all under surveillance. 

[dageurreotype]

36 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

This should be handy monitoring those on the "wrong" side of the political divide.

 

The ISOC already has this capability and sufficient legal power to do this; I doubt that the police have the necessary means presently.

 

It would be interesting to hear about those cases which have been unsuccessfully prosecuted because the police lacked this authority/capability.

 

 

This is not merely 'handy', it is it's raison d'etre.

[jesimps]

5 hours ago, faraday said:

Why the outrage from some people?

 

The NSA & GCHQ have been doing this & more for years.

This is a forum concerning Thailand on Thai Visa, what are you wobbling on about the UK and US for? 

Please stop trying to trivialise what the present govt is up to by making comparisons. It's an old fanboys trick, just check your "likes".

 

[stephen tracy]

3 hours ago, Somtamnication said:

Wonder if freedom of speech is classified as a grave offence?

I think freedom of speech falls under "threats to national security".  Same as pressing 'like'.

[stephen tracy]

3 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Are you joking? Thailand is moving forward precisely like the rest of the world now! You don't think they dreamed up this whole surveillance thing by themselves do you?

 

I'm not clear on how you think that the world is moving forward. Certainly not in the ways of freedom, human rights, or privacy.

 

We are all penned sheep waiting to be sheared and milked. Don't think sheep can be milked? Ah, that's where technology comes in handy.

The rest of the world?  Not every country detains people for Attitude Adjustment.

[Shaunduhpostman]

6 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Pathetic fail at sarcasm.

The laws in place  to protect civil rights and privacy in the USA and UK are strong and are enforced. Despite what you might think, a police agency can not access private data as easily as the manner proposed for Thailand.  The judiciary is independent and is not cowed or intimidated by the military. Neither the US, nor UK military interferes in domestic affairs and in both countries the military is subject to transparent civilian oversight. 

 

If  I am harmed by a police officer or the government, I have a right of recourse. I have far more confidence in the judicial system, the military  and the law enforcement of these two countries than I do in the shakedown boys who hang out under the  walkway in front of Market Village , Hua Hin at the end of every month collecting money.

 

 

are

The post 9/11 U.S. clearly does not protect anyone's civil rights and was far from perfect prior to that. Among many examples would be the 2011 national security enforcement act signed by Obama which gives the military the right to seize any person without cause, without ever being allowed a trial, with no requirement that family be notified and without any requirement that such a person ever be realeased. Habeus corpus, an essential human right is finished in the U.S. The military in the U.S. essentially has the green light to kidnap anyone they see fit.

 

As for the courts you need look no further than the Silk Road case, in which the website owner was the victim of evidence planting by the FBI. The FBI was clearly shown to have hacked servers in Iceland and planted  evidence that the court used to say the Silk Road defendent had plotted the murders of multiple people. The guy is just some computer nerd and had no prior record and the court refused to look at this evidence. Some have said the problem was not that people were using Silk Road to sell drugs but that someone in the corporate establishment feared the business model skills of the guy running SIlk Road. There is a whole film documenting this travesty and evidence that corruption in the U.S. is not just at the level of the senate and the congress but extends to the judicial system.  

 

At least in Thailand we will not see these powers applied in a ruthless and systematic manner as we do in the west. The west is terrifying in the organized and purposeful way that the military industrial complex is waging war on citizens world wide via many avenues not least of which would be spying and violation of people's privacy.

 

The arbitrariness of law enforcement in Thailand has long given anyone with enough power/connections etc. the right to do anything they please, so in a sense I see your point. It really makes one wonder why such things as phone spying have to be approved. If they were being done in the past there would have been nothing anyone could do about it anyway. I would guess this announcement was made more as a threat to the public, to remind them of what they can do.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Shaunduhpostman

[stephen tracy]

2 hours ago, aussienam said:

From what I can interpret based only from the article is that these intercept powers are not broadening pre-existing ones, rather legislating the use of new powers. If that is the case then this is a good thing in my opinion. All advanced nations have intercept legislation to gather evidence and it is extremely useful. All these alarmist police power comments are exaggerated. Anyone who has experience in this area knows how much time and effort is required to meet benchmarks to firstly gain approval for the intercepts, then there is equipment, monitoring costs, charges by service providers and manpower needed to monitor, review and interpret conversations, or analyse data. It's not just a matter of a supposedly vengeful police officer wanting to tap someone's number at his or her whim. That is for the movies. I would prefer Thailand to have these powers for law enforcement. Military intell/spy agencies would already have this.
So all the paranoids here, just relax, you'll be fine.

Sent from my SM-G9287 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yep, and the RTP will carry al that out to the letter of the law.  It will not be abused at all.  Nothing to worry about whatsoever.  We are all in good hands. 

[mikiea]

22 hours ago, darksidedog said:

And so the move towards a police state continues and innocent people should be worried about that.

crooked cop's or poorly trained military   , both are uneducated  groups of men in tight fitting uniforms ......

[lungnorm]

They should start monitoring all Police and Politicians phones first. That should keep them busy and the courts jammed up for a few decades.

[aussienam]

Yep, and the RTP will carry al that out to the letter of the law.  It will not be abused at all.  Nothing to worry about whatsoever.  We are all in good hands. 

I sense a hint of sarcasm and cynicism!
Not saying it will be perfect but they are well used investigative tools that all modern law enforcement agencies use. It's about bringing RTP into technological era of evidence gathering.
It can provide very damning evidence that is indisputable and improve conviction rates for serious crimes.
It's not as if RTP should never get this type of evidence gathering technology. It would always have been just a matter of time. And I dare say that it will also likely at some point in time begin to be used against corrupt officials in all walks of life. It may therefore be a help there in exposing them.
Like any new technology being implemented, it will be very restricted in its use. There will need to be extensive training and education. Service providers won't hook up the intercepts until the court issues the warrants which will be authorised only by a judge.
By just saying that RTP don't deserve it because they are corrupt etc, is a bit shortsighted IMO. There may well be some issues but let the process of modernisation and increased accountability sort all of this out. I believe the benefits will outweigh the negatives.
I would rather see convictions for serious crimes and used for counter terrorism, and anti corruption which this technology will be able to assist with.
What about DNA forensic evidence? People were paranoid about that being misused and breach of privacy there as well when that began. Also for drones, etc etc. This is the modern world and Thailand is catching up.

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[aussienam]

And how are they going to know EXACTLY who the criminals are BEFORE they have done their spying?
They will spy on anyone and everyone.

To apply for intercepts there has to be initially already an element of suspicion. Because intercepting requires imposing into someone's private life, there is a higher standard required normally than just mere suspicion, but also a belief, in conjunction with reasons why other forms of evidence gathering has not been successful or falls short of what would be seen to reasonable suceed in a court hearing/trial.
An intercept application has to justify several conditions.
A judge can reject an application and a judge's approval of a warrant can be called into question if they did not follow the strict guidelines they also need to adhere to.
There is not just some arbitrary carte blanche spying going on. Just to monitor one person requires multiple staff to be rostered on 24 hours, you need to review, transcribe, translate, have surveillance, equipment, expenses, brief preparation, basically a whole team dedicated to working on someone.
The whole concept of anyone and everyone being spied on is farcical. It's totally impossible and not going to happen. If you are not crooked then don't worry.

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[Jonmarleesco]

23 hours ago, webfact said:

but police promised that ordinary people would not be affected

Oh, yeah? Pull the other one ... it's got bows, bells and whistles on it.

[Jonmarleesco]

11 minutes ago, aussienam said:

To apply for intercepts there has to be initially already an element of suspicion. Because intercepting requires imposing into someone's private life, there is a higher standard required normally than just mere suspicion, but also a belief, in conjunction with reasons why other forms of evidence gathering has not been successful or falls short of what would be seen to reasonable suceed in a court hearing/trial.
An intercept application has to justify several conditions.
A judge can reject an application and a judge's approval of a warrant can be called into question if they did not follow the strict guidelines they also need to adhere to.
There is not just some arbitrary carte blanche spying going on. Just to monitor one person requires multiple staff to be rostered on 24 hours, you need to review, transcribe, translate, have surveillance, equipment, expenses, brief preparation, basically a whole team dedicated to working on someone.
The whole concept of anyone and everyone being spied on is farcical. It's totally impossible and not going to happen. If you are not crooked then don't worry.

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Following the GCHQ and NSA pants down episode? I would say it would be highly likely, but for the RTP's questionable competence combined with their particular work ethic.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

Bugger! Does this mean we will have to check our attic's/basements,  every week for signs of the Statis RTB living up there with tape recorders and other appliances capable of detecting conversations we have at home with our families or friends? Because that will be the next step.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Khon Kaen Dave
additional content

[soalbundy]

23 hours ago, darksidedog said:

And so the move towards a police state continues and innocent people should be worried about that.

No different to what already happens in the West