Landlord refusing to give signed copies of ID-Card and Housebook and also refusing to fill in the TM30 formular.

[Confuscious]

Until last year, I had no problem with Immigration to get my Visa extension based on Retirement.
Just provide the letter from the Consulate that I had the required income of 65,000 Baht and that was it.

But last year, they did not accept the Rental contract which was dated 16 years ago and never renewed.

As my landlord lives abroad and was not reluctant to fly over to Thailand to make a new rental contract, and my Visa would expire 1 week later, I went to the Tourist Police and asked them to help in this case.
A few phone calls to my landlord, finally convinced her to decide to write a letter giving a family member the legal authorization to fill in these documents.
But instead of doing as agreed, she send a lawyer to my house with a new rental contract in which the son would have the legal authorization and in the mean time she raised the rent by 100% and asked for the difference to be paid for the deposit.
As my time was running up and there was no other option, I signed the documents on the condition that the son would fill in the TM30 formular and give me the signed copies of his ID-Card and the updated Blue Book.
Except for a few problems with the documents, I got my Visa extension for 1 year.

My next Visa extension is due at 18 May, and I asked the son of my landlord to make a new rental contract, fill in a TM30 and provide me of a signed copy of his ID-Card and Blue Book.
But he was not very reluctant to do this and his answer was "wait, I will ask my mother (the landlord) about this".
That was 2 weeks ago, and I still don't have any answer from them.
I fear that, or they don't want to provide with the necessary documents for my Visa extension, or they will send me again a lawyer and ask a raise of the rent and pay again the difference of deposit.
Both options are not acceptable to me, although I would maybe agree to sign the contract and when I got my Visa extension look for another place to rent.

Time is ticking fast and I don't want to wait until the last day to find out that they are not willing to provide me with the legal documents for Immigration.

What can I do to get my Visa extension?
A friend told me to go rent a room in a Condominium and show my rental contract with the condominium.
According to him, Condominiums are like Hotels and they don't need to provide all these documents as they have a different agreement with Immigration.
Is this true?

TIA

[daveAustin]

Believe the landlord is obliged to sort out the TM30, so perhaps report them to immigration. I would have taken the raising of the rent as a sign they want you out, and thus find another place.

[NanLaew]

Start by telling us which immigration office you are dealing with as they have varying requirements as to what they will accept. The temporary condo rental may not be good enough for some whereas others may be quite happy with a long-term hotel or serviced apartment.

 

Also seriously consider moving before the NEXT extension is due. You have already swallowed a 100% rent rise last year which may not be too bad a deal after 16 years tenancy but I honestly don't see it getting any easier.

[Confuscious]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Start by telling us which immigration office you are dealing with as they have varying requirements as to what they will accept.

Dan Kwian in Nakhon Ratchasima

[Confuscious]

4 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

Believe the landlord is obliged to sort out the TM30, so perhaps report them to immigration. I would have taken the raising of the rent as a sign they want you out, and thus find another place.

The landlord is not required to fill in a (new) TM30 formular.
Reporting her to immigration has no substance as my rental contract would expire this month, together with the TM30.

[gk10002000]

I wonder if the Thai officials, notably the "tax man" or revenue department loves this new immigration enforcement because now the officials have a record that a foreigner is renting or leasing and paying the Thais money.  I am sure many landlords don't report rent income, now, every little place is on record as having received monies.  Will the government close the loop?

[A1Str8]

Go to the cops file a report on what he did. And don't pay him. Cheapos always try to make money by playing tricks. Don't let them get away with it.

[NanLaew]

12 hours ago, Confuscious said:

The landlord is not required to fill in a (new) TM30 formular.
Reporting her to immigration has no substance as my rental contract would expire this month, together with the TM30.

The landlord or possessor of the rented property IS required to submit a TM30. It is a legal requirement. But the enforcement of that law is like most matters of law enforcement in Thailand, "up to you".

 

Immigration will have no interest in having the landlord or possessor reported and if they have not done so already, will invariably shunt the responsibility of getting the TM30 completed and submitted onto the tenant.

 

Ultimately it is time to move but explore the temporary stay in either a condo, hotel or serviced apartment. Find out if the local immigration office will accept that and what provenance they may need such as a signed rental agreement. Hotels and serviced apartments would typically submit your residence information to immigration via the systems already in place. You would need to check with the condo management if they do the same or if they are happy to fill in a TM30 for you to submit.

Edited May 1, 2017 by NanLaew

[evadgib]

How have you fared re maintenance in those 16 years...?

Edited May 1, 2017 by evadgib

[Confuscious]

20 minutes ago, evadgib said:

How have you fared re maintenance in those 16 years...?

What you mean?
The deal between me and the landlord was that I would never bother her with any repair/modify costs and the landlord would not bother me with any rent increases or unneeded expenses.
It was only since last year that Immigration started to ask a TM30, a signed copy of the ID-Card and a signed copy of the Housebook (with the originals) that the landlord was pissed off and asked a new contract with a raise of the rent.

 

[Confuscious]

40 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The landlord or possessor of the rented property IS required to submit a TM30. It is a legal requirement. But the enforcement of that law is like most matters of law enforcement in Thailand, "up to you".

 

Immigration will have no interest in having the landlord or possessor reported and if they have not done so already, will invariably shunt the responsibility of getting the TM30 completed and submitted onto the tenant.

The landlord filled in a TM30 formular and showed a signed copy of the ID-Card and the Housebook.
But the rental contract will finish on May 20.
The landlord is not required to renew the contract and fulfill the requirements of Immigration.
If the landlord does nor show up to fulfill the requirements of Immigration, I can only sue her for not following the exsiting contract and tell me 3 months before that the contract would not be renewed.
I wish you success if you ever are going to sue a Thai landlord in Thailand for not telling you that no new contract will be made.

 

Ultimately it is time to move but explore the temporary stay in either a condo, hotel or serviced apartment. Find out if the local immigration office will accept that and what provenance they may need such as a signed rental agreement. Hotels and serviced apartments would typically submit your residence information to immigration via the systems already in place. You would need to check with the condo management if they do the same or if they are happy to fill in a TM30 for you to submit.

That was my original question.
Would immigration accept a rental contract from a condominium as proof of residence?
In my neighborhood, there are several condominiums which offers a rental contract of 3,000 baht/month.
As far as I know, I am not required to live in a house, but I can chose to live anywhere.
If I tell Immgration that my rental contract was not renewed by the landlord and I am living in condominium until I find another house, this would comletely legal and should be accepted by Immigration.
I don't need to rent the condominium for longer as a month, as I am looking for another house to live in.
But in your previous answer you said that Immigration would maybe not accept such a contract.

 

[NanLaew]

8 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

What you mean?
The deal between me and the landlord was that I would never bother her with any repair/modify costs and the landlord would not bother me with any rent increases or unneeded expenses.
It was only since last year that Immigration started to ask a TM30, a signed copy of the ID-Card and a signed copy of the Housebook (with the originals) that the landlord was pissed off and asked a new contract with a raise of the rent.

 

Is that exactly how the rental contract is worded? Sounds more like a win-win for the landlord as you have been happily paying for repairs and maintenance for 16 years.

 

Either way, those dubious perks expired last year when you had the first go-around and had to eat a 100% rental increase. Now you have waited another year just to get bitten in the same ass?

 

Go to immigration and see if they accept a rental contract from a condo. Then get a condo. That will resolve the immediate issue with immigration and your legal long stay in Thailand which is not the concern of any landlord, good or bad.

 

Take the time to find something more suitable while lodging in the condo but get out of that bad deal as soon as you can. There's every indication that the landlord has a different interpretation of the contract you signed 16 years ago.

[NanLaew]

Our lines crossed.

 

Since nobody else has jumped in with specific information on what Dan Kwian will accept for domicile and provenance thereof, the onus is on you to go and ask them. They don't give a hoot about your struggles with the current landlord. All they want is for you to provide an acceptable proof of where you are lodging, short term or long term at the time you apply for the extension. You will need to advise them of a change of address if you move again as some offices are getting stroppy about submitting timely changes of address personally.

[louse1953]

Edit by me.

[Confuscious]

Just now, NanLaew said:

Is that exactly how the rental contract is worded? Sounds more like a win-win for the landlord as you have been happily paying for repairs and maintenance for 16 years.

 

Either way, those dubious perks expired last year when you had the first go-around and had to eat a 100% rental increase. Now you have waited another year just to get bitten in the same ass?

 

Go to immigration and see if they accept a rental contract from a condo. Then get a condo. That will resolve the immediate issue with immigration and your legal long stay in Thailand which is not the concern of any landlord, good or bad.

 

Take the time to find something more suitable while lodging in the condo but get out of that bad deal as soon as you can. There's every indication that the landlord has a different interpretation of the contract you signed 16 years ago.

The original contract was made exactly as I said.
I invested a lot of money in that house to make it "liveable".
I renewed the Electrical wiring (was gone to the dogs) and made an electrical wiring with Earth; I changed the standard "hole in the ground toilet" with a modern toilet and a real bath; Made a kitchen; etc.

It was my fault to not know the Thai laws and now knowing that a rental contract is ALWAYS only 1 year valid, unless specified otherwise.
So, I was living in fact with a valid rental contract.

On top of that, when the landlord send her lawyer last year to make a new contract, the lawyer wanted to put in the new contract that everything that was fixed to the wall or had become a part of the house belonged to the landlord.
I looked this up, and this seems to be the law.
But I managed with the landlord to scrap that out of the contract and this rule would only be valid for items added AFTER the new contract.

I already decided to look for a more suitable place.
But the time is too short to find something.
That's why I asked if showing a rental contract (1 month) from a condominium would be accepted.
In the meantime, as long as the landlord doesn't tell me officialy be assigned letter to leave, I can live in my house until I found something more suitable.

 

 

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Is that exactly how the rental contract is worded? Sounds more like a win-win for the landlord as you have been happily paying for repairs and maintenance for 16 years.

 

<snip>

That is quite standard in Thailand, I think it is the old fashioned style: rent stays the same as long as the renter is there, renter is responsible for maintenance. I have the same, 14 years now, same rent of 6,000 baht.

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, stevenl said:

That is quite standard in Thailand, I think it is the old fashioned style: rent stays the same as long as the renter is there, renter is responsible for maintenance. I have the same, 14 years now, same rent of 6,000 baht.

Live and learn; thanks for that. My rental experience and that of a friend of mine who has built and rented several properties since the 1980's is of the new fangled sort of rental agreement where the tenant takes care of routine 'wear and tear' items and anything requiring capital such as water pumps, air conditioners and structural repairs needs the consent of the landlord. It does seem the 'old fashioned' system is much simpler and probably works in Nakhon Nowhere but maybe the OP's landlord realises that at some point, old properties built with old techniques eventually lose their value despite the tenants good work in maintaining a habitable property.

 

Good luck in finding a short-term lodging that satisfies immigration while hoping the landlord stops being a dick.

[TerryLH]

"Reporting her to immigration has no substance as my rental contract would expire this month, together with the TM30."

 

If the conditions remain the same, does a TM30 expire?

[Confuscious]

4 hours ago, TerryLH said:

"Reporting her to immigration has no substance as my rental contract would expire this month, together with the TM30."

 

If the conditions remain the same, does a TM30 expire?

YES

The TM is only valid if presented at Immigration with a valid rental contract, a signed copy of the landlord's ID-Card and a signed copy of the landlord's Housebook.
All 3 documents need to match the landlord's ID and the rentner(s) ID.
Last year, my landlord send her son to renew the rental contract and he was denied becuase he was not on the Housebook.

Depending on the Immigration office, there is always a possibility of different interpretations of the laws.

Some Immigration offices ask on top of these documents some pictures (NOT SELFIES) of the rentner standing at the OUTSIDE of the house and some pictures of the rentner IN the house.

Is all this an approach to discourage foreigners to rent houses instead of buying buying houses/condos?
Maybe.

[Petchou]

They should provide you with the documents you need but at same time, it is more than reasonable from their side to ask for an increase of rental since it has not changed for 16 years.   

[humqdpf]

On 30/4/2017 at 7:50 PM, gk10002000 said:

I wonder if the Thai officials, notably the "tax man" or revenue department loves this new immigration enforcement because now the officials have a record that a foreigner is renting or leasing and paying the Thais money.  I am sure many landlords don't report rent income, now, every little place is on record as having received monies.  Will the government close the loop?

And maybe that is the reason why the landlord raise the rent by 100% - they now have to pay tax because a foreigner is renting!

[Destiny1990]

U seems really attached to the house..

[steve187]

2 hours ago, Confuscious said:

YES

The TM is only valid if presented at Immigration with a valid rental contract, a signed copy of the landlord's ID-Card and a signed copy of the landlord's Housebook.
All 3 documents need to match the landlord's ID and the rentner(s) ID.
Last year, my landlord send her son to renew the rental contract and he was denied becuase he was not on the Housebook.

Depending on the Immigration office, there is always a possibility of different interpretations of the laws.

Some Immigration offices ask on top of these documents some pictures (NOT SELFIES) of the rentner standing at the OUTSIDE of the house and some pictures of the rentner IN the house.

Is all this an approach to discourage foreigners to rent houses instead of buying buying houses/condos?
Maybe.

surely if since the last tm30 was submitted you have not moved/been registered at a different address, then the tm30 registration is still valid, well that's how it works at my local immigration, you seem to be saying a new tm30 is required as a matter of course at each yearly extension.

[Confuscious]

28 minutes ago, Petchou said:

They should provide you with the documents you need but at same time, it is more than reasonable from their side to ask for an increase of rental since it has not changed for 16 years.   

I beg to differ with you.

The initial contract was:

1. I would take care of all the repairs/installation of the house.
2. The landlord would not rise the rent as long as Iive in that house.

 

I spend in 16 years a lot of money on my house, where I could have simply send an assigned letter to Hong Kong asking for the repair or installation of the broken item.
Wether the landlord lives in Thailand or Utopia is none of my business.

Also, if the landlord would have asked to review the rent on a "normal" way, I would maybe understand it.
But the landlord did review the rent AFTER I asked to comply with the rules of Immigration and by sending me a lawyer (which I would need to pay at the end).

We always had good communications and understanding.
Why was the lawyer involved?
My landlord started to make a fuzz about the requirements of Immigration ONLY when Immigration asked a SIGNED COPY OF HER ID-Card.
To avoid that, she send her lawyer.
But at the end, I did refuse to sign the rental contract as long as my Visa extension was not complete and Immigration kept requiring a signed copy of the ID-Card.
So, at the end, the involvement of a lawyer was a pure waste of money and a reason to end the "friendship" or "trust" between me and the landlord.. 

[Confuscious]

2 minutes ago, steve187 said:

surely if since the last tm30 was submitted you have not moved/been registered at a different address, then the tm30 registration is still valid, well that's how it works at my local immigration, you seem to be saying a new tm30 is required as a matter of course at each yearly extension.

That's the requirements at Dan Kwian.
Every year a new rental contract; a new TM30; a signed copy of the ID-Card of the landlord; a signed copy of the housebook of the landlord.

As I said before, every Immigration office handle different rules.

[Confuscious]

I don't understand why Immigration require from the foreigner to provide these documents.
It's an additional burden to the foreigner who needs to ask all these "Private" documents from his landlord.

Declaring to the local authorities that you lodge a foreigner is a task from the landlord and not a task from the rentner.

In almost every Western country, it is the task of the house owner to declare to the local authorities that He/She offers shelter to a guest from date "x" to date "y" and provide all identification documents of that gues(s).

Hotel are doing this.
Why not house owners?

[NanLaew]

16 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

I don't understand why Immigration require from the foreigner to provide these documents.
It's an additional burden to the foreigner who needs to ask all these "Private" documents from his landlord.

Declaring to the local authorities that you lodge a foreigner is a task from the landlord and not a task from the rentner.

In almost every Western country, it is the task of the house owner to declare to the local authorities that He/She offers shelter to a guest from date "x" to date "y" and provide all identification documents of that gues(s).

Hotel are doing this.
Why not house owners?

Primarily the reporting system is set up is based on the foreigner demographic of say +40 years ago when the bulk of foreigners were tourists staying in hotels. There's been a sea change in that demographic. Even after condo ownership was promoted as a way for foreigners to legally own a home in Thailand, the reporting requirements weren't officially reviewed and adjusted to suit and local immigration offices that had a higher contingent of foreign non-tourists made up their own interpretations of the rules to ultimately make their paper shuffling easier... while making a bit extra on the side. The growing private rental market was ignored and now that the likes of airbnb is allowing home and condo owners to compete directly with hotels, the excretia has hit the diffuser.

 

Yes, the landlord is legally bound to advise immigration of the presence of a foreigner renting or otherwise residing in the landlords property but there's no enforcement of that legal requirement beyond the lazy asses at some local immigration offices forcing the foreign tenant to get the paperwork for them. When you come up against a landlord who for whatever reason wants to stay below the radar, then you get the mess you are facing. Nothing new under the sun here,

[bazza73]

Move to a condo. The condo management can supply the necessary documents for Immigration.

Remove all improvements you have made in the house.

[Ulic]

4 hours ago, Confuscious said:

YES

The TM is only valid if presented at Immigration with a valid rental contract, a signed copy of the landlord's ID-Card and a signed copy of the landlord's Housebook.
All 3 documents need to match the landlord's ID and the rentner(s) ID.
Last year, my landlord send her son to renew the rental contract and he was denied becuase he was not on the Housebook.

Depending on the Immigration office, there is always a possibility of different interpretations of the laws.

Some Immigration offices ask on top of these documents some pictures (NOT SELFIES) of the rentner standing at the OUTSIDE of the house and some pictures of the rentner IN the house.

Is all this an approach to discourage foreigners to rent houses instead of buying buying houses/condos?
Maybe.

I am confused by your reply. First you say YES

Then the rest of you answer explains a NO answer.

Nothing has changed in his rental contract, landlords ID-card etc....

Jomtien Immigration told me I did not have to submit a new TM 30

if I did not move. There was no expiration date on it. I never changed

addresses in Thailand just took a few trips out of the country so I never

submitted a new TM 30. No issues so far.

[moe666]

Get over it and move your landlord is being a jerk for no reason