Good start, not enough: EU leaders mull May's Brexit offer

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Frankly, he seems rather less incompetent than we do. Unless we can field a better team we should capitulate. Croquet anyone?

Team?  One man is enough.  Send in Brian...

 

 

[dunroaming]

Croquet may be  suitable game to play as it involves hoops (to jump through), balls (that need to be hard) and a mallet to hit them with.

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

13 hours ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

Indeed, what have they come up with for only less than a million UK expats in 27 countries of the EU when UK is proposing guarantees for 3.3 million in our little island?

Quid Pro Quo?

UK has to take a hard line, or we will get nothing just like Cameron did...

They want our money, banks, and expect us to buy their goods.

As Junker said: They are dreamers...

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

5 hours ago, ballpoint said:

Team?  One man is enough.  Send in Brian...

 

 

Yes please.

[Khun Han]

11 hours ago, onthesoi said:

The UK owes the EU money because it signed legal contracts and made financial commitments.

----

 

The UK's unrealistic and naive expectations could be illustrated as follows:

 

A person willingly signs up to a 1 year gym membership with agreed monthly payments.

After 6 months the person cancels the direct debit and refuse to pay or offer any settlement.

The person then contacts the Gym and tries to a make a new, pay as you go type deal, so they can still use the Gym but on better terms than the previous contract.

All the other Gym members are watching to see what the outcome will be!

 

What will the Gym do?

 

 

 

You can't possibly be British, to be spouting such nonsense on here. The UK signed up to, and is paying into agreements which end in 2020. The UK currently pays a nett 8.4 bn a year into the EU, and we will (if as planned) leave in 2019. How much commitment does that leave us up to 2020? You can do simple maths, can't you? But, it's slightly more complicated: the EU wants us to honour our share of the pension commitments (fair enough), but the EU doesn't want to honour our share of the real estate (naughty, naughty!). Geddit? No, I didn't think so.

[chrissables]

11 hours ago, elliss said:

  Imagine there is  No Brexit ,   easy  if we try . 

You mean ignore the result of an democratic vote? Interesting, do you work for the EU?

Edited June 24, 2017 by chrissables

[rockingrobin]

18 hours ago, jesimps said:

The EU, especially Grupenfuhrer Merkel, keep picking over TM's citizenship offer, but have.still not given any assurances about Brits living in the EU countries.

TM tried to sort this out with the fat frau just after the Brexit vote but was dismissed out of hand.

I'd like to see a positive outcome from these talks but it seems impossible to negotiate with these EU types.

I dread it but in the end I think we'll just have to walk. That's if parliament oks it.

 

The EU have given assurances to UK citizens living in europe.The EU proposals are far more detailed and superior from a citizens prospective than what the UK have so far provided.

[IMA_FARANG]

That's not a fair assessment.

It would be fairer to say that the EU officials involved accepted her statement  but they need more time to asses  it.

nothing happens quickly in government, either in the EU or elsewhere.

 

 

 

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Frankly, he seems rather less incompetent than we do.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

The EU have given assurances to UK citizens living in europe.

What is your evidence for this statement?

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

As Junker said: They are dreamers...

Actually it was Tusk who spouted this airy-fairy nonsense. But, whatever, the fact that this pair of incompetent clowns is able to attain key positions of power within the EU is a sufficiently strong argument for Brexit in its own right, I think!

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

The EU have given assurances to UK citizens living in europe.The EU proposals are far more detailed and superior from a citizens prospective than what the UK have so far provided.

 

51 minutes ago, OJAS said:

What is your evidence for this statement?

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-citizens-rights_en

 

I will attempt to find the communication that was produced in aprill from the EU on citizens

[overherebc]

17 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

What do you expect here? That the Brexit is regulated in a 10 minute side talk.

That is naive bar stool thinking.

 

 

7 Spades or 1 club ?

[Retiredandhappyhere]

20 hours ago, Grouse said:

Can't this damned woman get ANYTHING right??

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40378913

You seem convinced that everything that the EU says is correct and proper, whereas the UK is always wrong.  I suggest that you should give "this damned woman" a chance since negotiation have only just started and yet you seem to want her to concede to all the EU's wishes on day one.  You will eventually be obliged to concede that, contrary to your firmly held belief, the UK does indeed have a strong negotiating position and will achieve many of its aims, although as is the case with all types of negotiations, neither side will obtain all that it wants or deems desirable.

 

I fully expect the usual lengthy response from you along with the usual condescending comments about anyone who voted in favour of Brexit.  Millions of people voted for an exit from the EU, many of whom fully appreciated that there would be at least a temporary and possibly substantial initial economic cost, but some people feel that it is not all about money and nor is it all about immigration.  

 

Many would just like to control their own country and not constantly have to listen to the leaders of France and particularly Germany making decisions on our behalf, often with apparently very little consultation with the other 25 members, including ourselves.    

 

Whether you agree with the Brexiteers or not, you cannot automatically assume that your own views are the only valid ones and that anyone who holds differing opinions are morons.

[Retiredandhappyhere]

 

Charliek said:

 

"In reality I don't see the UK leaving, This is all a charade that will keep the UK in the protectionist EU, any bets the UK will adopt the Euro as it's currency?"

 

 

What on earth have you been drinking?    We are leaving  and the Euro is dead in the water, at least as far as the UK is concerned and always was whether we had stayed in or not. 

Edited 17 hours ago by CharlieK

[dunroaming]

News today (Saturday) that Corbin will push for another election now that he is leading in the polls (who believes polls?).  Surely a Labour government under Corbyn would just be a further embarrassment for the UK at the moment and make brexit even harder to achieve.  May needs to go and be replaced by someone who is carrying less baggage.  God knows who that would be with this shower!

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, dunroaming said:

News today (Saturday) that Corbin will push for another election now that he is leading in the polls (who believes polls?).  Surely a Labour government under Corbyn would just be a further embarrassment for the UK at the moment and make brexit even harder to achieve.  May needs to go and be replaced by someone who is carrying less baggage.  God knows who that would be with this shower!

I think Corbyn should look to the example of Boris Johnson who knows that it's extremely unlikely that anyone negotiating Brexit for the UK will come out of it looking good.

[dunroaming]

17 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I think Corbyn should look to the example of Boris Johnson who knows that it's extremely unlikely that anyone negotiating Brexit for the UK will come out of it looking good.

Definitely a poisoned chalice and you are right, it is unlikely anyone will come out of brexit smelling of roses.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

You seem convinced that everything that the EU says is correct and proper, whereas the UK is always wrong.  I suggest that you should give "this damned woman" a chance since negotiation have only just started and yet you seem to want her to concede to all the EU's wishes on day one.  You will eventually be obliged to concede that, contrary to your firmly held belief, the UK does indeed have a strong negotiating position and will achieve many of its aims, although as is the case with all types of negotiations, neither side will obtain all that it wants or deems desirable.

 

I fully expect the usual lengthy response from you along with the usual condescending comments about anyone who voted in favour of Brexit.  Millions of people voted for an exit from the EU, many of whom fully appreciated that there would be at least a temporary and possibly substantial initial economic cost, but some people feel that it is not all about money and nor is it all about immigration.  

 

Many would just like to control their own country and not constantly have to listen to the leaders of France and particularly Germany making decisions on our behalf, often with apparently very little consultation with the other 25 members, including ourselves.    

 

Whether you agree with the Brexiteers or not, you cannot automatically assume that your own views are the only valid ones and that anyone who holds differing opinions are morons.

I disagree

[dunroaming]

5 hours ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

Millions of people voted for an exit from the EU, many of whom fully appreciated that there would be at least a temporary and possibly substantial initial economic cost, but some people feel that it is not all about money and nor is it all about immigration.  

Thank you for your well measured post.  Will you concede that although not everyone who voted for brexit did so motivated by immigration and the promised extra money for the NHS, many did.  In fact I would say, after listening to the never ending news bulletins at the time the vast majority of people voted for it.  Let's be generous and say that half of the people who voted  for brexit  did so with immigration and money being the motivating factor.  They now know that those things are not going to happen and they were sold a pup.  If you added those disillusioned Brexiteers to the people who voted to remain then the country would today vote overwhelmingly to stay.

 

Anyway given that there will be no extra money for the NHS and immigration remains open what are the Brexiteers hoping to achieve.  The old chestnut of "taking back control".  But what does that involve?  Does the man in the street have any idea of what that means?  True we will be writing thousands of new laws (costing millions of pounds to do so) but just how different will those laws be and how much difference will it make to our everyday lives?  Most importantly will it be worth the cost of brexit which is going to enormous?

[tomacht8]

Given the floor for 10 minutes at the end of a Brussels summit dinner ....

 

... May left immediately afterwards, leaving the other 27 to discuss other Brexit issues without her.

 

Must be a shit feeling for May. 

Over 40 years the UK has been fully involved in shaping european politics, and now she must leaving the meeting room and standing outside the door.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by tomacht8

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Given the floor for 10 minutes at the end of a Brussels summit dinner ....

 

... May left immediately afterwards, leaving the other 27 to discuss other Brexit issues without her.

 

Must be a shit feeling for May. 

Over 40 years the UK has been fully involved in shaping european politics, and now she must leaving the meeting room and standing outside the door.

 

 

Having the bottle to leave and paving the way for others suggests UK is still shaping European politics as it has done for centurys.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

3 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Thank you for your well measured post.  Will you concede that although not everyone who voted for brexit did so motivated by immigration and the promised extra money for the NHS, many did.  In fact I would say, after listening to the never ending news bulletins at the time the vast majority of people voted for it.  Let's be generous and say that half of the people who voted  for brexit  did so with immigration and money being the motivating factor.  They now know that those things are not going to happen and they were sold a pup.  If you added those disillusioned Brexiteers to the people who voted to remain then the country would today vote overwhelmingly to stay.

 

Anyway given that there will be no extra money for the NHS and immigration remains open what are the Brexiteers hoping to achieve.  The old chestnut of "taking back control".  But what does that involve?  Does the man in the street have any idea of what that means?  True we will be writing thousands of new laws (costing millions of pounds to do so) but just how different will those laws be and how much difference will it make to our everyday lives?  Most importantly will it be worth the cost of brexit which is going to enormous?

Well, I have to say if you voted Leave last year on the promise of more money for the NHS and a sudden stop to immigration you really don't understand what it is about.

I would imagine also you voted Labour in the election on the promise of more money for everything, by borrowing vast amounts and letting the great grandchildren pay for it...

 

The remoaner doom mongers are still going on about this that and the other, when in fact only an 18% drop in the value of the pound and 1-2% increase in inflation has. If we do leave on WTO terms the pound's drop will offset any import tax increase. The EU know they will be cutting their own throats if they force that to happen.

The EU are not going to get away with daylight robbery in what they ask for in "reparations" as this isn't WWI and the treaty of Versailles.

 

You need to study the whole thing in a bit more detail, the same as my friend the whiskey drinker should too.

 

 

 

[OJAS]

4 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Anyway given that there will be no extra money for the NHS and immigration remains open what are the Brexiteers hoping to achieve. 

Quite simply to get that dinosaur relic stuck in a 20th Century time warp called the EU off the UK's back!

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

11 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/position-paper-essential-principles-citizens-rights_en

 

I will attempt to find the communication that was produced in aprill from the EU on citizens

Thanks, makes tedious reading, but essentially says much the same as the UK proposal.

There are some trap doors that the EU likes to see in case they screw up.

The jurisdiction of the ECJ is one, and actual dates to go with time spans is another, and I expect there are more if you examine it carefully.

 

Why haven't we seen this in the British Press? I guess because it isn't controversial enough, and is actually a very small indicator the EU will play ball.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

25 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Quite simply to get that dinosaur relic stuck in a 20th Century time warp called the EU off the UK's back!

I passed this on to "Dun":

Immigration has to be the same until (a deal is reached and) we leave.

If we leave but stay in the single market immigration , and just about everything will be the same as staying in.

Edited June 24, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

4 hours ago, dunroaming said:

Thank you for your well measured post.  Will you concede that although not everyone who voted for brexit did so motivated by immigration and the promised extra money for the NHS, many did.  In fact I would say, after listening to the never ending news bulletins at the time the vast majority of people voted for it.  Let's be generous and say that half of the people who voted  for brexit  did so with immigration and money being the motivating factor.  They now know that those things are not going to happen and they were sold a pup.  If you added those disillusioned Brexiteers to the people who voted to remain then the country would today vote overwhelmingly to stay.

 

Anyway given that there will be no extra money for the NHS and immigration remains open what are the Brexiteers hoping to achieve.  The old chestnut of "taking back control".  But what does that involve?  Does the man in the street have any idea of what that means?  True we will be writing thousands of new laws (costing millions of pounds to do so) but just how different will those laws be and how much difference will it make to our everyday lives?  Most importantly will it be worth the cost of brexit which is going to enormous?

PS.

Immigration has to be the same until (a deal is reached and) we leave.

If we "leave" but stay in the single market immigration , and just about everything will be the same as staying in.

Edited June 24, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[OJAS]

6 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Immigration has to be the same until (a deal is reached and) we leave.

If we leave but stay in the single market immigration , and just about everything will be the same as staying in.

Sadly I think that you are right, just a bit of wishful thinking on my part 

[nong38]

The result has been there for a year now but some people still want to change the result. Suppose for a moment we said we change our minds and we now wish to remain in the the EU how do you think the EU would treat us? Welcome us back with open arms perhaps or treat us like a bunch of idiots who must stand in the corner, do as your told , have no influence ( if we ever had any in the first place ) and get the money out in ever greater amounts to prop them up?

 

I am afraid that once the result was announced and Article 50 triggered and backed by the UK Parliament there was no going back, for better or for worse the decision stands and now its up to both sides to hammer out a deal which is best for both, we cant live without each other, but we are leaving the single market, the customs union and the European Courts of Justice. We voted to take back control of our own affairs and if we cannot come to agreements on these things then we have to be prepared to walk away and it does not help when German MEPs say that the UK law is not good enough for them, its our country and if you want to come and live in the UK you abide by UK laws or dont come, simple choice. The EU citizens currently in the UK have a couple of years to make up their own mind what they want to do.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, nong38 said:

The result has been there for a year now but some people still want to change the result. Suppose for a moment we said we change our minds and we now wish to remain in the the EU how do you think the EU would treat us? Welcome us back with open arms perhaps or treat us like a bunch of idiots who must stand in the corner, do as your told , have no influence ( if we ever had any in the first place ) and get the money out in ever greater amounts to prop them up?

 

I am afraid that once the result was announced and Article 50 triggered and backed by the UK Parliament there was no going back, for better or for worse the decision stands and now its up to both sides to hammer out a deal which is best for both, we cant live without each other, but we are leaving the single market, the customs union and the European Courts of Justice. We voted to take back control of our own affairs and if we cannot come to agreements on these things then we have to be prepared to walk away and it does not help when German MEPs say that the UK law is not good enough for them, its our country and if you want to come and live in the UK you abide by UK laws or dont come, simple choice. The EU citizens currently in the UK have a couple of years to make up their own mind what they want to do.

Do you think this is a spat amongst schoolchildren? Unlike the UK populace, the EU overwhelmingly recognizes that it's better for everyone if the UK stays in. So if the UK decides to drop the plan, most likely the rest of the EU will be fine with that.

There is one legal obstacle: whether, once invoked, the Article 50 protocol can be cancelled. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by ilostmypassword