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U.S. Navy to relieve admiral of command after collisions - WSJ

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webfact Grand Master Member

webfact

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U.S. Navy to relieve admiral of command after collisions - WSJ

 

tag-reuters.jpg

Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin, U.S. 7th Fleet Commander, speaks to media on the status of the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald, damaged by colliding with a Philippine-flagged merchant vessel, and the seven missing Fitzgerald crew members, at the U.S. naval base in Yokosuka, south of Tokyo, Japan June 18, 2017. REUTERS/Toru Hanai/File Photo

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy plans to remove from duty the commander of the fleet that has suffered four recent collisions in Asia and the deaths of a number of sailors, the Wall Street Journal reported on Tuesday, citing U.S. officials.

 

Vice Admiral Joseph Aucoin, the three-star commander of the U.S. Seventh Fleet based in Yokosuka, Japan, will be relieved of command on Wednesday in connection with four collisions since January, including two involving fatalities, two U.S. officials said, according to the Journal. It said Navy officials declined to comment.

 

(Reporting by Eric Walsh; Editing by Sandra Maler)

 
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-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-08-23
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colinneil Platinum Member

colinneil

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Removing the admiral will not solve the problem.

As geriatrickid said aggressive arrogance is mainly to blame, we are the US navy we move over for no one.

Finisterre lighthouse is a prime example, US carrier group and Spanish lighthouse incident.

Edited by colinneil
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nausea Gold Member

nausea

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50 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

don't know of course,

but I think it is far more to this than incompetance and poor training re the shipboard employees of the navy

 

I'd suggest a look at google.com(Normal Accident)

 

 

Not quite sure what your point is, you need to be more explicit. A search on Normal Accident is not very enlightening (unless I'm missing something). It brings up "human error" as a factor, which is my assumption as to the cause.

 

Having worked in a large organisation I know that people get lazy, there should have been a big kick up the arse sround the navy after the first incident, you can bet it's happening now, a bit late in the day for the Vice Admiral though.

 

Regarding the cyber attack theory:

 

"Adm. Swift (top US navy commander) reiterated on Tuesday that there had been no indications of a cyberattack"

 

As to the real reason the following may be a clue:

 

"The chief of Naval operations officially called for all U.S. Navy ships worldwide to halt operations and review basic training in a video posted online."

 

46 minutes ago, colinneil said:

 

Finisterre lighthouse is a prime example, US carrier group and Spanish lighthouse incident.

 

The "Finisterre lighthouse incident" is an urban legend, it never really happened. 

 

 

Edited by nausea
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colinneil Platinum Member

colinneil

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17 minutes ago, nausea said:

 

Not quite sure what your point is, you need to be more explicit. A search on Normal Accident is not very enlightening (unless I'm missing something). It brings up "human error" as a factor, which is my assumption as to the cause.

 

Having worked in a large organisation I know that people get lazy, there should have been a big kick up the arse sround the navy after the first incident, you can bet it's happening now, a bit late in the day for the Vice Admiral though.

 

Regarding the cyber attack theory:

 

"Adm. Swift (top US navy commander) reiterated on Tuesday that there had been no indications of a cyberattack"

 

As to the real reason the following may be a clue:

 

"The chief of Naval operations officially called for all U.S. Navy ships worldwide to halt operations and review basic training in a video posted online."

 

 

The "Finisterre lighthouse incident" is an urban legend, it never really happened. 

 

 

Dream on pal. American pride will not allow you to admit it happened.

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melvinmelvin Gold Member

melvinmelvin

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, nausea said:

 

Not quite sure what your point is, you need to be more explicit. A search on Normal Accident is not very enlightening (unless I'm missing something). It brings up "human error" as a factor, which is my assumption as to the cause.

 

Regarding the cyber attack theory:

 

"Adm. Swift (top US navy commander) reiterated on Tuesday that there had been no indications of a cyberattack"

 

As to the real reason the following may be a clue:

 

"The chief of Naval operations officially called for all U.S. Navy ships worldwide to halt operations and review basic training in a video posted online."

 

 

The "Finisterre lighthouse incident" is an urban legend, it never really happened. 

 

 

 

you would have to invest some time reading about what Google spits out,

human error yes, but not necessarily only on the part of a lookout or an OOW

 

the author's point is that in certain complex systems accidents like this are more bound to happen than may or likely to happen

 

Three Mile Island accidents, the Korean 747, with plenty pax, shot down over Sakhalin by Russian military the US space shuttle that blew into fragments right after take off

 

alle three well known accidents, human error related, but human error on a level different from the person pushing a specific button or pulling a specific handle

 

an example of what the author is systemizing;

 

in the mid 1970s a US Coast Guard training vessel was ploughed down (almost cut in half) by a commercial vessel sunk within minutes --> 11 lives lost (this took place just down the river from DC, bit north of the bay as far as I remember)

 

scenario, as far as I remember;

 

training vessel on the way up river, commercial vessel (with local pilot) on the way down dusk time - excellent visibility a fair number of people on the training vessel bridge, skipper has the conn skipper clearly see the other vessel, spots her steaming lights, he is commenting on the vessel to the crew then the skipper has a complete short circuit in his brain (can happen to anybody) he actually thinks that the freighter is a very slow moving vessel on the way up river and he prepares to pass her

 

not far away from the freighter he goes to port to overtake the freighter and is ploughed down, catastrophic results

 

human error; yes, but where? only in the skipper or also elsewhere?  plenty of people on the bridge, virtually everybody sees what is happening and finally they understand that this must go down the drain, which it does

BUT; nobody intervenes with the skipper, they let him drive the vessel to the dungeons

 

respect for senior officers? not breaching navy etiquette? lack of interest in avoiding a crash?  afraid of losing job or being demoted?

 

Guess this is what one could call BRM on a wider level than what one usually understands with BRM.

 

This one was one of the "bound to happen" accidents discussed in the book.

 

The US Navy is a complex system, very big and very complex structure.

Accident avoidance requires more than training and good eye sight

 

 

 

 

 

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impulse Star Member

impulse

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Posted
2 hours ago, colinneil said:
2 hours ago, nausea said:

The "Finisterre lighthouse incident" is an urban legend, it never really happened. 

Dream on pal. American pride will not allow you to admit it happened.

 

Interesting that it was alleged to have happened in 1995, and I heard the story in a motivational seminar in the '80s.

 

http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend

 

 

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colinneil Platinum Member

colinneil

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16 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Interesting that it was alleged to have happened in 1995, and I heard the story in a motivational seminar in the '80s.

 

http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend

 

 

No infact it happened in 1991, whilst the US carrier force was heading to Iraq.

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RobFord Senior Member

RobFord

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Posted
 
Interesting that it was alleged to have happened in 1995, and I heard the story in a motivational seminar in the '80s.
 

http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend

 

 


From Wikipedia

"The earliest known version of the joke appeared in a single-panel cartoon, reproduced from the London tabloid weekly The Humorist by the Canadian newspaper The Drumheller Review in 1931. It showed two men standing by their rails, shouting through megaphones:"

"Skipper: Where are you going with your blinking ship? / The Other: "This isn't a blinking ship. It's a lighthouse!""

Some old farts on this forum are led around by the nose on line by pimpled twenty year olds living in their parents basement.


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impulse Star Member

impulse

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Posted
10 minutes ago, RobFord said:

Some old farts on this forum are led around by the nose on line by pimpled twenty year olds living in their parents basement.

 

Sadly, easy to do if you appeal to their pre-conceived notions of how things, groups, and countries are.  

 

Also works quite well for some of the news channels...

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Baerboxer Star Member

Baerboxer

Posted
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6 hours ago, zaphod reborn said:

Any investigation as to whether Russia is jamming US Naval navigation systems?  I didn't think so as Trump has been compromised in that regard, despite the allegation being made by Australian intelligence.

 

Australian Intelligence - now there's an oxymoron! :cheesy:

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RobFord Senior Member

RobFord

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Posted
I cannot authenticate this audio file but it is purported to be the one in question: 
 
[/url]  


Yeah. I'm sure you looked real hard.

"The naval vessel, usually identified as of the United States Navy and generally described as a battleship or aircraft carrier, requests that the other ship change course. The other party (generally identified as Canadian or often Irish and occasionally Spanish) responds that the naval vessel should change course, whereupon the captain of the naval vessel reiterates the demand, identifying himself and the ship he commands and sometimes making threats. This elicits a response worded as "I'm a lighthouse. Your call" (or similarly), a punchline which has become shorthand for the entire anecdote."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend


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Thaidream Advanced Member

Thaidream

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Thee was no lighthouse incident - it is an urban legend.  However, there is obviously some issue with the US Navy in the Pacific and since the Admiral is the responsible party- he gets sacked. Additionally, individual ship Captains may also lose their command.

 

There needs to be a complete investigation to determine why there are 4 such incidents in a relatively short period of time.  Were computers hacked?  Is there a training or operational issue? Is there a Navy cultural issue?  People  have lost their lives and  leaders have to take responsibility. This has nothing to do with arrogance . That is another urban legend being spouted.   It has everything to do with finding the cause.

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smotherb Platinum Member

smotherb

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13 hours ago, zaphod reborn said:

Any investigation as to whether Russia is jamming US Naval navigation systems?  I didn't think so as Trump has been compromised in that regard, despite the allegation being made by Australian intelligence.

How come the buck stops at the 7th Fleet Commander, Trump is the Commander-in-Chief and all four have happened since his inauguration.

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smotherb Platinum Member

smotherb

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11 hours ago, colinneil said:

Dream on pal. American pride will not allow you to admit it happened.

Steady there old chap, I do believe you've gotten your wicket sticky

 

Lighthouse and naval vessel urban legend - Wikipedia

The lighthouse and naval vessel urban legend describes an encounter between a large naval ... be Puget Sound, or off the coast of North Carolina, some other times the lighthouse is located at Cape Finisterre (Spain). .... He tells those giving speeches to avoid not only the lighthouse story, but the boiling frog story and the ...
‎Example · ‎Debunking · ‎History · ‎Interpretations
Sep 5, 2013 - Uploaded by VideoHunter
The plausibility of a complete carrier battle group of perhaps 40 ships and therefore 40 navigators doing this is ...
 

The Obstinate Lighthouse - Snopes.com

www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp
Claim: An aircraft carrier unknowingly attempted to bully a lighthouse into moving out of its way. See Example(s)
Claimed by: Internet

This Great US Navy Viral Prank Actually Goes Back To 1931 - Jalopnik

jalopnik.com/this-great-us-navy-viral-prank-actually-goes-back-to-19-1341389106
Sep 18, 2013 - The radio transmission is what the US Navy calls "the lighthouse joke" in an ... The Navy was then fending off an earlier circulation of this story ...

This story says it is based on an actual radio conversation between the U.S. Navy Aircraft carrier the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln and a Canadian Lighthouse

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manarak Ruby Member

manarak

Posted
Posted

Indulging in knee-jerk reactions by removing people from command without assessing their influence on the incidents shows that Navy command is clueless.

 

Imagine you were in such a situation - you drill drill drill and drill again, but at the end, your "best crew on the waterfront" sails the ship in front of a cargo while you sleep.

 

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Nilats Newbie

Nilats

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America is literally collapsing in front of our eyes :)

 

4 collisions of military ships in such a short period of time? Things are much worse than what they are telling you. :)

 

I was a skipper myself with crew of 7 in Mediterranean. Did lots of daysailing, nightsailing. Colliding with another vessel is pretty hard to do in open waters even if you tried - because you have to find a vessel first - sometimes it doesn't happen. But it's possible that's why 24/7 watch is necessary - we did a crew rotation 24/7 - one person on the deck watching the course and steering, and one more back-up guy half way sleeping on the deck who would help the guy on the deck in case course adjustment was necessary or in case of an emergency - the rest of the crew were sleeping at night - we took turns 2 hours each at night to make sure somebody was on the deck at all times. Whereas our backup guy was usually a volunteer who is used to half conscious sleeping at all times - his job was to give extra hand in emergency and also wake up every hour or so to make sure that whoever was doing their turn on the deck didn't fall asleep, And that's the main task when you are doing international sailing - maintaining 24/7 day-night watch, and even amateur crews can do it really well :) So I don't understand how a military ship with all the equipment on board, and much more crew on board( one guy on the deck at all times is pretty much all you need to avoid any collision) could screw this up so badly - this is really bad. Even then I myself as a skipper was trained to take a dozen different precautions, evasive actions when necessary - and it helps because the captain of the other vessel is also equally trained to take all those actions... that's why nothing ever really goes wrong, so most of the time two vessels never come to dangerous proximity, and are just happy to see each other, exchange messages on the radio for fun and so on.

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Credo Ruby Member

Credo

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Nilats said:

America is literally collapsing in front of our eyes :)

 

4 collisions of military ships in such a short period of time? Things are much worse than what they are telling you. :)

 

I was a skipper myself with crew of 7 in Mediterranean. Did lots of daysailing, nightsailing. Colliding with another vessel is pretty hard to do in open waters even if you tried - because you have to find a vessel first - sometimes it doesn't happen. But it's possible that's why 24/7 watch is necessary - we did a crew rotation 24/7 - one person on the deck watching the course and steering, and one more back-up guy half way sleeping on the deck who would help the guy on the deck in case course adjustment was necessary or in case of an emergency - the rest of the crew were sleeping at night - we took turns 2 hours each at night to make sure somebody was on the deck at all times. Whereas our backup guy was usually a volunteer who is used to half conscious sleeping at all times - his job was to give extra hand in emergency and also wake up every hour or so to make sure that whoever was doing their turn on the deck didn't fall asleep, And that's the main task when you are doing international sailing - maintaining 24/7 day-night watch, and even amateur crews can do it really well :) So I don't understand how a military ship with all the equipment on board, and much more crew on board( one guy on the deck at all times is pretty much all you need to avoid any collision) could screw this up so badly - this is really bad. Even then I myself as a skipper was trained to take a dozen different precautions, evasive actions when necessary - and it helps because the captain of the other vessel is also equally trained to take all those actions... that's why nothing ever really goes wrong, so most of the time two vessels never come to dangerous proximity, and are just happy to see each other, exchange messages on the radio for fun and so on.

Well, that makes me feel a lot less critical of that Titanic running into an iceberg.   What are the chances?

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