My school wont give me non b papers after waiting two months

[jnrdekinyua]

Hello.im a teacher in north eastern and after working for two months my school just told me last week they cannot give me any papers and they had not told me that in the begging.what do i do now.im on a tourist visa

Edited August 25, 2017 by jnrdekinyua

[otherstuff1957]

Look for a new school.

 

 

[allane]

Perhaps you can extend your tourist Visa by another 30 days ? I too think you should be looking for a new school.

[PoorSucker]

So you have been working illegally for two months and the school don't want to apply for a work permit for you, leave now. 

[JackThompson]

You need a Work Permit and visa which is compatible with a work-permit on your first day of work.  If a school will not provide this, try another one.  Any school who wants you to risk being arrested and deported for serious immigration and labor violations is not a place you want to work.

[tonray]

Critical query: Do you have a degree and are you eligible for a Non-B and work permit ?

[quandow]

And Thailand wonders why they have SO much trouble attracting quality educators . . .

[TerryLH]

"And Thailand wonders why they have SO much trouble attracting quality educators . . ."

 

Guessing you didn't read the OP?

[Get Real]

Seems amazing that a school today should really allow you to work 2 month without valid papers. Not long ago it was reported that they also can face a fine of up to 400-800K regarding to the issue.

[overherebc]

Did they give a reason or the usual 'cannot'

[poohy]

Nothing unusual here in the sticks

A few  years back I worked for a rural university in the south for 2 years (actually a really cushy number, nice house, motorcycle provided, and decent salary) but they just couldn't be bothered to do any paperwork.

[ericthai]

OP  you better stop working immediately and start looking for another job. If you get caught working without a work permit you will have serious problems.

 

You need a B visa to work. If you look at your tourist visa is says no work is allowed.

Don't believe any company that tells you it's ok to work while they do paper work.

You need your visa and work permit from day one.  Allot of schools don't qualify for a work permit and some just dont care and rely on teacher's not knowing and believing them.  Good Luck!  

[Loaded]

It's common practice for schools to wait until the end of the probation period before processing a non-immigrant B visa and work permit. Part of the reason they do this is that they have experienced many unreliable foreign teachers who need to be sacked or they just leave without giving notice.

 

Which schools provide a non-immigrant B visa and work permit before the teacher starts working? I've never heard of one.

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Loaded said:

It's common practice for schools to wait until the end of the probation period before processing a non-immigrant B visa and work permit. Part of the reason they do this is that they have experienced many unreliable foreign teachers who need to be sacked or they just leave without giving notice.

 

Which schools provide a non-immigrant B visa and work permit before the teacher starts working? I've never heard of one.

Or a non-immigrant O visa/extension.

The requirement for a WP is a non-immigrant visa/extension, it does not stipulate what class O, B or other.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Loaded said:

It's common practice for schools to wait until the end of the probation period before processing a non-immigrant B visa and work permit. Part of the reason they do this is that they have experienced many unreliable foreign teachers who need to be sacked or they just leave without giving notice.

 

Which schools provide a non-immigrant B visa and work permit before the teacher starts working? I've never heard of one.

It may be common practice but that is all. 

It's illegal to start work before you have a WP.

It's not that expensive to do it either. 3,000 ish for the WP,  3,000 ish for the return fare to Penang, 150 Ringit for the visa, 3,000 ish for incidentals. A pile of photo copies at 1 baht a copy plus a 50% add on fudge factor.

Anything else to add?

Edited August 26, 2017 by overherebc

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, Loaded said:

It's common practice for schools to wait until the end of the probation period before processing a non-immigrant B visa and work permit. Part of the reason they do this is that they have experienced many unreliable foreign teachers who need to be sacked or they just leave without giving notice.

 

Which schools provide a non-immigrant B visa and work permit before the teacher starts working? I've never heard of one.

You are not the first to report that this policy is commonplace - and I do not doubt that it is. 

Part of the solution is for teachers to refuse to accept these conditions, which put them in direct violation of Thai laws, so that this policy will no longer be commonplace.  

The other half of the solution might be for schools to require a "deposit" paid by the applicant - to cover the administrative-costs of "no-show" teachers - which is returned when the teacher completes their probationary period. 

 

What is certain, is a policy that directly violates both immigration and labor law, is not a sustainable solution.

Thai Immigration often cites "intent to work illegally" as justification for rejecting or questioning entry on Tourist-type entries.  This is true, to the extent that schools and teachers play this illegal game.  Therefore, another reason for this practice to be stopped, is to prevent driving away those who are in Thailand on Tourist Visas, who do NOT work illegally, but are accused of such upon entry to the country.  These "false positives" lead to a loss of incomes to Thais who would have sold goods / services to persons rejected and those threatened with rejection who never return.

 

On 8/25/2017 at 1:42 PM, Get Real said:

Seems amazing that a school today should really allow you to work 2 month without valid papers. Not long ago it was reported that they also can face a fine of up to 400-800K regarding to the issue.

I would bet that this rarely happens.  In most cases, where this is discovered, the foreigner is blamed / deported / banned, the locals hiring him get off scot-free, and another "disposable" illegally-working foreigner is immediately placed in the same classroom.

[samsensam]

 

assuming you're a qualified teacher you have many opportunities (though judging by the english of your post i'd be concerned if you were teaching english to my child) simply leave and get yourself a job with a decent up front employer, there are plenty of decent jobs for appropriately qualified and experienced teachers.

[Get Real]

29 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

You are not the first to report that this policy is commonplace - and I do not doubt that it is. 

Part of the solution is for teachers to refuse to accept these conditions, which put them in direct violation of Thai laws, so that this policy will no longer be commonplace.  

The other half of the solution might be for schools to require a "deposit" paid by the applicant - to cover the administrative-costs of "no-show" teachers - which is returned when the teacher completes their probationary period. 

 

What is certain, is a policy that directly violates both immigration and labor law, is not a sustainable solution.

Thai Immigration often cites "intent to work illegally" as justification for rejecting or questioning entry on Tourist-type entries.  This is true, to the extent that schools and teachers play this illegal game.  Therefore, another reason for this practice to be stopped, is to prevent driving away those who are in Thailand on Tourist Visas, who do NOT work illegally, but are accused of such upon entry to the country.  These "false positives" lead to a loss of incomes to Thais who would have sold goods / services to persons rejected and those threatened with rejection who never return.

 

I would bet that this rarely happens.  In most cases, where this is discovered, the foreigner is blamed / deported / banned, the locals hiring him get off scot-free, and another "disposable" illegally-working foreigner is immediately placed in the same classroom.

We do not know if it happens, not happens or rarely happens. It´s a new law and regulation that went into action about a month ago.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Get Real said:

We do not know if it happens, not happens or rarely happens. It´s a new law and regulation that went into action about a month ago.

It is not new. The fines for employers was in the working aliens act of 2008. In the new act the fines are much higher. Same for the fines for the employee.

[JackThompson]

15 minutes ago, Get Real said:

45 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I would bet that this rarely happens.  In most cases, where this is discovered, the foreigner is blamed / deported / banned, the locals hiring him get off scot-free, and another "disposable" illegally-working foreigner is immediately placed in the same classroom.

We do not know if it happens, not happens or rarely happens. It´s a new law and regulation that went into action about a month ago.

You are correct - I forgot about that announcement of higher fines.  Perhaps they will begin enforcing on those doing the hiring now.  I surely hope so.  If they do this, that will shut-down this practice of encouraging teachers to teach illegally. 

 

That could, in turn, take the burden off of Immigration, who is not in a good position to enforce illegal-hiring violations.  This would allow Immigration to focus on keeping dangerous/criminal types out, and lighten-up on those who come here frequently on Tourist Visas, and contribute to the Thai economy with foreign-sourced funds.

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

It is not new. The fines for employers was in the working aliens act of 2008. In the new act the fines are much higher. Same for the fines for the employee.

Ok, that might be. I will rephrase myself, by saying. It looks like they with higher fines is going to start clamping down harder on teachers and schools that don´t have or hire person without the required paperwork.

[duanebigsby]

4 hours ago, JackThompson said:

You are not the first to report that this policy is commonplace - and I do not doubt that it is. 

Part of the solution is for teachers to refuse to accept these conditions, which put them in direct violation of Thai laws, so that this policy will no longer be commonplace.  

The other half of the solution might be for schools to require a "deposit" paid by the applicant - to cover the administrative-costs of "no-show" teachers - which is returned when the teacher completes their probationary period. 

 

What is certain, is a policy that directly violates both immigration and labor law, is not a sustainable solution.

Thai Immigration often cites "intent to work illegally" as justification for rejecting or questioning entry on Tourist-type entries.  This is true, to the extent that schools and teachers play this illegal game.  Therefore, another reason for this practice to be stopped, is to prevent driving away those who are in Thailand on Tourist Visas, who do NOT work illegally, but are accused of such upon entry to the country.  These "false positives" lead to a loss of incomes to Thais who would have sold goods / services to persons rejected and those threatened with rejection who never return.

 

I would bet that this rarely happens.  In most cases, where this is discovered, the foreigner is blamed / deported / banned, the locals hiring him get off scot-free, and another "disposable" illegally-working foreigner is immediately placed in the same classroom.

The practice is absolutely commonplace and to refuse to abide by it, as you suggest, wouldn't result in changes. It would result in not getting hired.

[CyclingLight]

When I worked in Thailand "legally", I was told by my recruiter to start the semester with at least 2 weeks on a TV to get it converted to a non-B. It was months before the WP was finished. I know the visa conversion happened within a few weeks, but everything wasn't final for 3-4 months.

 

I know part of the delay was the recruiter's scheduling, but I know a lot of it was the processing time at the various bureaucracies. (My first year, the district office ran out of blank work permit booklets for weeks). It was common for first semester teachers at the school to not get their WP and visa completely finalized until the last few days of the semester. 

 

I imagine that if the authorities came to inspect, that because things were in process, it probably would have been OK. But we were working well before our paperwork was finished, and definitely I suspect the first few days until the recruiter started the visa-conversion process we were working illegally on TVs. I would guess that the authorities that might inspect the schools are aware of this. 

 

As far as the school refusing to do your non-B, I probably wouldn't panic (not sure how many schools/teachers get busted), but I would look for another job. And, I'd probably be more concerned about the visa run than anything else. That being said, you are definitely not alone in your predicament; I've met plenty of others in similar situations. 

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

The practice is absolutely commonplace and to refuse to abide by it, as you suggest, wouldn't result in changes. It would result in not getting hired.

Well, then let us hope they start busting all those schools / hr-persons who are hiring teachers illegally, and then hit them with the maximum-fine.  It's complete hypocrisy to be harassing legitimate folks who are not working here illegally, by accusing them of working, while looking the other way while a system demands people work illegally on Tourist Visas. 

 

1 hour ago, CyclingLight said:

I imagine that if the authorities came to inspect, that because things were in process, it probably would have been OK.

Unless a work-permit has been issued, it most certainly is not "ok" to be working per Thai labor laws - and is also against the law to work while in the country on a Tourist Visa, which expressly states one may not work on it.

Edited August 26, 2017 by JackThompson

[tonray]

7 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Well, then let us hope they start busting all those schools / hr-persons who are hiring teachers illegally, and then hit them with the maximum-fine.  It's complete hypocrisy to be harassing legitimate folks who are not working here illegally, by accusing them of working, while looking the other way while a system demands people work illegally on Tourist Visas. 

 

Unless a work-permit has been issued, it most certainly is not "ok" to be working per Thai labor laws - and is also against the law to work while in the country on a Tourist Visa, which expressly states one may not work on it.

When I was teaching, routinely took about 60 days for Non-B paperwork, considering I was hired a week before semester began usually. Many schools are only filling their positions a week before semester starts (or even after it starts) and they routinely wait to see if the teacher shows up for a month before producing the paperwork. 

 

When going to Chaengwattana for extensions after 45 days had passed on the Non-B, the IOs clearly knew you were working prior to getting your WP. common and accepted practice everywhere.

[JackThompson]

48 minutes ago, tonray said:

When I was teaching, routinely took about 60 days for Non-B paperwork, considering I was hired a week before semester began usually. Many schools are only filling their positions a week before semester starts (or even after it starts) and they routinely wait to see if the teacher shows up for a month before producing the paperwork. 

 

When going to Chaengwattana for extensions after 45 days had passed on the Non-B, the IOs clearly knew you were working prior to getting your WP. common and accepted practice everywhere.

I don't doubt what you say at all, and nothing will change until the employers face enforcement and stiff-fines.

I have heard / spoken to so many who stay here in direct-violation of the permit-to-stay laws - buying retirement visas from agents when they don't qualify, paying schools to give them ED visas without attending classes, etc. 

 

Yet the "illegal teachers" are the excuse given for "crackdowns" on frequent Tourist Visa users - most of whom actually follow the law and obtain their visas without deceptive / illegal practices.  Many now live elsewhere, and as many or more Thais are out-of-business as a direct result.

Edited August 26, 2017 by JackThompson

[ericthai]

3 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

The practice is absolutely commonplace and to refuse to abide by it, as you suggest, wouldn't result in changes. It would result in not getting hired.

unless every teacher refuses to work unless they have a WP then if the schools dont provide a WP they wont have any teachers. The problem is allot of people have no idea about visas/WP so they just believe whatever the employer tells them.

[Loaded]

It's always funny to read the comments from foreigners who have lived here many years but still use the values and social mores of their home country to judge and comment on Thailand's attitude to rules, laws and regulations.

 

Thai authorities do not enforce laws unless they are specifically told to do so. This is why there is flagrant ignoring of laws relating to driving, corruption, gambling, prostitution, employment etc but you will read of isolated 'raids' against organizations that have upset someone.

 

And please stop commenting on how foreigners should refuse to work until they get what they feel they should have. I nearly choked on my toast I laughed so loudly.

 

PS

The government's recent announcement about a crackdown on illegal labour relates 100% to Cambodian and Burmese cheap unregulated labour. It's the government showing the USA that it's serious about people trafficking. It is not aimed at foreign teachers at all.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Loaded

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, Loaded said:

PS

The government's recent announcement about a crackdown on illegal labour relates 100% to Cambodian and Burmese cheap unregulated labour. It's the government showing the USA that it's serious about people trafficking. It is not aimed at foreign teachers at all.

That's too bad.  I guess Immigration will still get to play both-sides then - first not enforcing the law in the country, then causing problems for those coming in on Tourist Visas who are not violating the law based on "suspicion of working illegally."  Sad.

 

3 hours ago, Loaded said:

It's always funny to read the comments from foreigners who have lived here many years but still use the values and social mores of their home country to judge and comment on Thailand's attitude to rules, laws and regulations.

In this case, I and others were not judging based on home-country values and social mores (many of which I would NOT want imported here), but rather noting specifically the Thai Authorities' "crackdown" on Tourist Visa use (mainly by a clique of IOs at Airports) under the banner of "Stopping Illegally-Working Farangs."  

 

Though only a small percentage of those staying here longer-term on Tourist Visas work illegally, the majority of those who do work illegally, do so as English teachers.  Either the authorities care about this "problem" or they don't.  It is not as if it would be difficult to stop the practice, if this was really the goal.

[Loaded]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

...Though only a small percentage of those staying here longer-term on Tourist Visas work illegally, the majority of those who do work illegally, do so as English teachers...

Underlined as well! You really do know your stuff.

 

Could you quote the source for your 'statistics'?

 

Or perhaps your own research paper on this particular subject?

 

Surely, you wouldn't have just made it up.