What is it with all the fruit wine concealed as red wine?

[craigt3365]

3 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

In fairness, jacking up the price of wine is a political no-brainer since most "ordinary people" will never buy any.  Not much chance of any popular backlash outside the expat community.

 

Which doesn't mean it doesn't stink...

That's changing rapidly. Many middle-class Thais now drink wine.

[Oxx]

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

In fairness, jacking up the price of wine is a political no-brainer since most "ordinary people" will never buy any.

 

I think that's backwards thinking.

 

A bottle of Jacobs Creek Cabernet Sauvignon costs around AUD 7.50 in Australia - that's about 200 baht.  Say you get 8 (smallish) glasses out of a bottle, that's 25 baht/glass.  That is well within the budget of many "ordinary people".

 

Many Thai people are interested in wine, but it's just not affordable to them, or is a very occasional luxury.  If it were taxed at a similar level to Australia, then I believe it would sell very well - certainly far better than it sells at the moment.

[impulse]

11 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

That's changing rapidly. Many middle-class Thais now drink wine.

 

True, it is changing.  But the middle class have better things to do than hop in a van, drive to BKK and sit in protest...

 

I'm not advocating, or supporting it.  Just like I don't advocate 300+% taxes on Ferarri's.  Just pointing out that it's low hanging fruit for politicians.  Partly in response to the "no rhyme or reason" comments.

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by impulse

[craigt3365]

12 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

True, it is changing.  But the middle class have better things to do than hop in a van, drive to BKK and sit in protest...

 

I'm not advocating, or supporting it.  Just like I don't advocate 300+% taxes on Ferarri's.  Just pointing out that it's low hanging fruit for politicians.  Partly in response to the "no rhyme or reason" comments.

 

It's corruption. Plain and simple.

[KittenKong]

Thailand has two types of wine: expensive and bloody expensive.

 

Why? Because Thailand has two types of alcohol tax: high and bloody high.

 

There is no cheap alcohol (beer, wine) in Thailand; it's all expensive. There is some cheap paint-stripper though.

[strikingsunset]

I recall vividly standing in the ' Black Cat' bar in Cherngtalay -Phuket , last year, the barman said to an enquiring punter....' I've got bottles of Cotes de Rhone, a bargain at 1200 baht'  I just burst out laughing...... 

[impulse]

16 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

It's corruption. Plain and simple.

 

But it's a familiar meme.  

 

"Special interest group convinces their nations' lawmakers to impose tariffs to protect their revenue stream."

 

Where have we heard that one before?

 

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

But it's a familiar meme.  

 

"Special interest group convinces their nations' lawmakers to impose tariffs to protect their revenue stream."

 

Where have we heard that one before?

 

Not like this though. No comparison.

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Not like this though. No comparison.

 

I know it's not the same product, but Google Tesla and Texas for a good chuckle...

 

[tonray]

Don't worry....when I went to a Thai restaurant in New Jersey (USA) this past visit in March, a plate of mediocre SomTam cost about 350 baht ($11 US) !

 

When all those Thai expats settle in...we'll fix em !

[binjalin]

Many middle-class Thais now drink FRUIT wine.

 

fixed it for you

[oldhippy]

11 hours ago, 1BADDAT said:

That is not true.  They have Jacob's Creek from Australia at many 7-11's i've been.  It is like 5-600 baht a bottle though.

600 - 800

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by oldhippy
edit

[craigt3365]

13 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I know it's not the same product, but Google Tesla and Texas for a good chuckle...

 

It's exactly the opposite of what's happening here! Best of luck to Tesla in trying to break the back of the middleman mafia there.

 

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/03/10/tesla-tries-new-approach-texas-capitol/

[impulse]

30 minutes ago, binjalin said:

Many middle-class Thais now drink FRUIT wine.

 

Baby steps...  I started with Strawberry Hill and went on to become a full fledged wino...  Until I took the oath.

 

[zyphodb]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

Not like this though. No comparison.

I don't smoke anymore but look at the e cigarette ban, surely set up with one purpose only, to protect the Thai tobacco monopoly's profits. Not much consolation, but at least they haven't banned imported wine altogether.

 And I'll just add that the fruit wine thing annoys me as much as the rest of you, indeed it's probably the single thing that I hate most about living in Thailand.....

[xylophone]

10 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

Tesco Lotus has a range of wines called "Vineyards World Wines" (3 reds and 3 whites) which, as far as I can tell, are unadulterated. The grape variety is shown on the front label (Shiraz, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon, Chardonney, Semillon, Sauvignon blanc) at around 350B - about 50B more than the Peter Vella/Castle Creek/Mont Clair/Mari Sol/etc. stuff.

 

To be honest, it's quite decent for the price - miles better than the "fruit wine" choices.

 

If you are lucky, your local Tesco Lotus may have a "Tesco Finest" section. Some of the choices there are pretty good, though more expensive than back home. I recently enjoyed a nice bottle of Chianti reserva for 499B.

 

OK - it would have only cost around 4 - 5 GBP (170 - 220 Baht) back home, but a bargain here in Thailand.

 

 

,

Their Montepulciano d'Ábruzzo at 549 is a lovely wine for the price.

[xylophone]

4 hours ago, binjalin said:

First of all, look at the label over the cap.  Blue means imported as is, brown-orange means it was imported as fruit juice (wine with alcohol extracted) with the alcohol added back in and bottled in Thailand as a tax dodge.

Not so straight forward I'm afraid........ there are wines bottled in the country of origin, such as Australia, France and South Africa which are already mixed with fruit juice before they are exported to Thailand.

 

Good thing is that on just about all of the back labels there is a description of the grape used and that it is mixed with fruit juice, clear for all to see. This is the same as the boxes/casks which are imported, BUT anything "produced" here by Siam winery (the Montclair people as well as a host of others) does not have this clear description, but hidden away on the back label are the words "fruit wine" and that's your lot!

 

Then of course you have the wines in the same category which are sold in the Wine Connection and these are grape juice which is mixed with fruit juice and bottled in Vietnam, and then exported to Thailand.

 

If you want to know the ins and outs of this whole business, including posts by a wine importer and very knowledgeable TV member, then look in the Montclair wine thread – – – so much more to read about this subject.

[craigt3365]

15 minutes ago, zyphodb said:

I don't smoke anymore but look at the e cigarette ban, surely set up with one purpose only, to protect the Thai tobacco monopoly's profits. Not much consolation, but at least they haven't banned imported wine altogether.

 And I'll just add that the fruit wine thing annoys me as much as the rest of you, indeed it's probably the single thing that I hate most about living in Thailand.....

If they were doing this only to protect the public, then there are many things they could do. I'm in Sri Lanka now. Booze is only available at government stores and SELECT restaurants. Many can't offer beer at all.

 

This is just corruption. Like the e cigs.

[ThaiWai]

And all this time I thought grapes were fruit. 

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

In fairness, jacking up the price of wine is a political no-brainer since most "ordinary people" will never buy any.  Not much chance of any popular backlash outside the expat community.

 

Which doesn't mean it doesn't stink...

But it does allow the market to be flooded with the cheap wine produced by Siam winery, for example, and the owner of this is a fabulously wealthy man with obviously many connections.

 

There are more Thai girls drinking this particular type of red wine now because of this, and I use the term "red wine" carefully, so it does have a market and it is more and more being purchased by farangs who are not wealthy, or who don't know that it contains fruit juice.

[impulse]

1 minute ago, ThaiWai said:

And all this time I thought grapes were fruit. 

 

And just the opposite of wines, grape juice is used as a cheap filler for expensive fruit juices.  The ones that say "100% juice" in big print, but  "10% mango juice, 90% other fruit juices from concentrate" in the small print.

 

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, xylophone said:

and it is more and more being purchased by farangs who are not wealthy, or who don't know that it contains fruit juice.

 

Don't know, or don't care?  If they like the taste and it has the effect, many guys don't care it's got fruit juice.   There's a huge market for sangria's, wine coolers and all kinds of pre-adulterated beverages.  Not to mention people all over SEA who put ice in their beer and wine.

 

[david555]

14 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

If you are referring to the "wines" in bottles and boxes seen on supermarket shelves, I disagree. I've never seen the words "fruit wine" on the front label. Even though the words appear on the back label they are in tiny print, and the proportion of fruit juice is never stated (I believe it can be as high as 20%). Also, the type of fruit is never mentioned.

 

To me that is deliberately misleading.

 

Of course, there are some genuine fruit wines around - no grapes involved - and they are clearly labelled, even with pictures of the fruit (mangosteen, lychee, etc). Maybe they are the ones you say are clearly labelled.

 

 

 

Are grapes not ALSO a fruit...??

[xylophone]

10 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Don't know, or don't care?  If they like the taste and it has the effect, many guys don't care it's got fruit juice.   There's a huge market for sangria's, wine coolers and all kinds of pre-adulterated beverages.  Not to mention people all over SEA who put ice in their beer and wine.

 

True enough and as I've often said, everyone to their own with regard to taste and what they eat and drink.

 

HOWEVER my main beef (sorry about the pun), if you wish, is with the locally produced wine which I've already mentioned, which tries to carefully hide the fact that there is fruit juice included in the "wine".

 

Be open and honest about it is all I'm really asking!

[StayinThailand2much]

15 hours ago, Na Fan said:

I can understand that. But why can't they label it properly and in a clearly visible manner? That's what gets me.

Because they get away with it! They want costumers to think that it is real wine, so that they can get rid of their fruit wine.

 

 

Wine, like most imported food items come under a hefty import duty:

 

"The following is a description of the taxes applied: Import tariff: The current import tariff rate is 54 percent on CIF value or 18 baht/liter, whichever is higher. However, under the Thai –Australia FTA agreement, Thai tariffs on Australian wine have fallen gradually from 54 percent to 24 percent on entry in 2009. The import duty will reach zero percent by 2015. Excise tax: In principle, the Thai Government places an excise tax on certain products, which are considered "luxury goods" (such as cars, air conditioners, gasoline, soft drinks, perfumes, etc.) and health-affected goods (i.e., liquors and tobacco products), in order to control their consumption. In reality, the Government manipulates this tax as a device to generate revenue. The excise tax has been accordingly increased from time to time when the Government needs more money. The excise tax rate for wine is 60 percent. However. in addition to a high rate of excise tax, the current calculation methodology creates a much higher tax burden than the rate reveals...

 

Given the current tax structure, the import tariff rate is 54 percent, excise tax 60 percent, municipal tax 10 percent, health tax 2 percent and VAT 7 percent. The following are the steps used in calculating all duties levied on imported wine:

 

Effective Duty and Tax Burden for Wine by Exporting Country Pricing Wine importers mark up their wholesale prices from 10 to 300 percent, depending on their customer’s type of business.

 

Average representative mark-ups charged by sellers in wine market; 1. Supermarkets, Hypermarkets, Liquor Store, Department Store, Convenience Store: 5-20 percent ..., 2. Wine Shops: 20 percent, 3. Hotels, Restaurants, Pubs, Night Clubs: 100-300 percent..."

 

Or in simple terms, if it is too good to be true, it probably is! Or why is the alcohol smuggle from neighboring countries booming?

 

 

[craigt3365]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

And just the opposite of wines, grape juice is used as a cheap filler for expensive fruit juices.  The ones that say "100% juice" in big print, but  "10% mango juice, 90% other fruit juices from concentrate" in the small print.

 

And that's the problem. Deceptive labeling.

 

Nothing wrong with fruit wine as long as you know what you are getting.

 

Me? I avoid it like the plague. Same with cheap beer or other booze. Too many headaches!  LOL

[StayinThailand2much]

19 minutes ago, impulse said:

Not to mention people all over SEA who put ice in their beer and wine.

 

To be fair, they probably learned that faux pas from the yanks after WW2.

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

To be fair, they probably learned that faux pas from the yanks after WW2.

 

They've lynched people in Texas for putting ice in a beer.  And guys ordering white wine at the bar.  I'm not sure what the redneck penalty is for red wine, though.

 

 

[craigt3365]

10 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

To be fair, they probably learned that faux pas from the yanks after WW2.

Yanks is a term many in the US find derogatory. Use it in certain places and you'll be on the floor in no time.

 

45 years in the US and NEVER saw anybody put ice in beer. Never.

[xylophone]

29 minutes ago, david555 said:

Are grapes not ALSO a fruit...??

Don't know if you're serious or not, however perhaps this will help: –

 

1). “Within the European Union, the term "wine" in English and in translation is reserved exclusively for the fermentedjuice of grapes”.

2).“As a body of reference in the area of vine and wine the OIV develops definitions and descriptions of the vitivinicultural products in order to contribute to international legal harmonization and to improve the development and marketing of vitivinicultural products.

The definitions of vitivinicultural products are included in the first part of the International Code of Oenological Practices.

This document constitutes technical and legal reference aiming to normalization of products of vitivinicultural sector and must be used as basis in establishment of national or supra-national regulations and should be imposed in international trade issues.

3). “An alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice”.

4). “By law: wine means the product of the complete or partial fermentation of fresh grapes, or a mixture of that product and products derived solely from grapes”. (Food Standards Code)

 

it has been established and agreed upon, that, for an alcoholic beverage to be deemed "Wine" it must contain 100% grape content.

Anything else is to be termed "Fruit Wine"