Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, amvet said:

You miss the point of the protest.  If it wasn't disrespectful it wouldn't be a protest now would it?  When football players sit down during the playing of the National Anthem that is disrespect.  It is supposed to be after all that is the point. 

Nonsense.

[amvet]

I don't go to pro football games.  I'm an alumnus of a large university with a successful football program.   If they should have any players sit or kneel or raise a clenched fist during the American Anthem I'll send the university president a letter withdrawing my financial support from the school and my reasons why.  I think men from my age group are the major contributors to the school.  The players are free to make their feelings known and so am I. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[Thakkar]

18 minutes ago, amvet said:

You quoted, "We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture."  Look what it started.  Now tell me are the below players kneeling or sitting and are they part of the NFL protest or not?  Is it disrespectful or not?  Kneeling is disrespectful and sitting is more disrespectful after all that is the point of the whole thing until one gets fired. 

 

*headshake*

[amvet]

25 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

*headshake*

First is respect second is protest.  I thought you might be confusing the two.

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[Thakkar]

8 minutes ago, amvet said:

First is respect second is protest.  I thought you might be confusing the two.

 

You are confusing protest with disrespect.

[ilostmypassword]

 

So I decided to look into where all this fetishization of the US Flag  began. It turns out it began with the National Americanism Commission of the American legion in 1923. This was the period of America's first red scare.

 

"Prior to Flag Day, June 14, 1923, neither the federal government nor the states had official guidelines governing the display of the United States' flag. On that date, the National Flag Code was constructed by representatives of over 68 organizations, under the auspices of the National Americanism Commission of the American Legion. The code drafted by that conference was printed by the national organization of the American Legion and given nationwide distribution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

 

"The Legion's efforts to promote Americanism during the 1920s included urging its members to report on publication materials perceived to be subversive, left-wing, or reflective of radical foreign political views, and established a National Americanism Commission to oversee its actions related to subversive activities.^[68] It commissioned the development of textbooks that promoted American patriotism, worked with members of the National Education Association to promote the teaching of history from an American perspective, and sought the removal of textbooks it saw as "un-American".^[69] It also supported legislation restricting immigration and seditious speech,^[70] and used its influence in an effort to deny public forums to speakers whose views it opposed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_(ideology)

 

In other words, flag worship began as part of a program to stifle left wing thought and advocacy in the USA.  Why is this not surprising?

[Opl]

1 minute ago, Thakkar said:

 

You are confusing protest with disrespect.

 

.. as well as.. respect with submission

Edited October 1, 2017 by Opl

[Andaman Al]

2 hours ago, amvet said:

First is respect second is protest.  I thought you might be confusing the two.

So I will replace your second photo with anyone of these. Fair enough?

 

 

 

 

And to keep you happy for the second photo you give, we even have Trump doing one of those 

 

 

Now what was it you said??

 

Quote

First is respect second is protest.  I thought you might be confusing the two

 

You know I think it is YOU that is getting confused. BUT if you are correct and the first photo is respect and the other is not then 100% the POTUS clearly does NOT respect the flag and the National Anthem. Why do you support the SOB (Presidentially acceptable term).

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Andaman Al

[Publicus]

16 hours ago, wayned said:

Maybe for professional students, but mine ran out the day that I graduated and I got a letter to report for a physical 15 days later.  I avoided the draft by enlisting into the service branch and MOS that I wanted and turned down an OCS program that pretty much guaranteed that you would graduate with a bulls eye painted on your back!

 

A wise decision. Life expectancy of a 2LT in Vietnam was six months. Trump was meanwhile enjoying the high life.

[Publicus]

7 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

Its ironic that many Military personnel all over the world put their lives on the line to fight for the cause of freedom, Right or wrong they do as they are commanded, Then people use the freedom to disrespect the flag the military people fought under to provide them with the right to protest,

 

There is no irony to the fact the UCMJ does not apply to civilians. It is just fact, it has always been true and no one should expect this to change.

 

Civilians are not required to snap to salute the anthem or the flag, nor do civilians salute military personnel whether EP or officer. Civilians in the general society do not post or retire the colors each day nor do civilians have a MOS. Indeed, when civilians hit the beaches they do it with beach blankets, a beach umbrella and a cooler.

 

The U.S. military does not have included in its mission militarizing or commanding the civilian society. Patriotism takes many forms to include joining the military to take the oath to support and defend the Constitution. The Constitution is supreme -- it is the law of the land which each member of the military is sworn to support and defend and which civilians live by each day. Irony occurs only when the militarily minded fail in this vital respect.

 

NFL is btw a bunch of civilians.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Publicus

[amvet]

4 hours ago, Publicus said:

 

There is no irony to the fact the UCMJ does not apply to civilians. It is just fact, it has always been true and no one should expect this to change.

 

Civilians are not required to snap to salute the anthem or the flag, nor do civilians salute military personnel whether EP or officer. Civilians in the general society do not post or retire the colors each day nor do civilians have a MOS. Indeed, when civilians hit the beaches they do it with beach blankets, a beach umbrella and a cooler.

 

The U.S. military does not have included in its mission militarizing or commanding the civilian society. Patriotism takes many forms to include joining the military to take the oath to support and defend the Constitution. The Constitution is supreme -- it is the law of the land which each member of the military is sworn to support and defend and which civilians live by each day. Irony occurs only when the militarily minded fail in this vital respect.

 

NFL is btw a bunch of civilians.

(C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

[amvet]

5 hours ago, Publicus said:

 

A wise decision. Life expectancy of a 2LT in Vietnam was six months. Trump was meanwhile enjoying the high life.

The truth comes out.  Nothing Trump says or does even a valid comment about disrespectful spoiled brat footballers is relevant because you are on the other side of the political spectrum.    This is a topic about Trump and football players and you try and distract with a comment about his life during Vietnam.  Can we all just concede Trump is a jerk and has been his entire life.  It took real talent to find a person crooked enough to lose to him in the last election but you all did it.  Congrats.  Now how about talking about appropriate times and places for sportsmen to protest. 

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, amvet said:

(C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

Again, source please.

[ilostmypassword]

4 hours ago, Publicus said:

 

There is no irony to the fact the UCMJ does not apply to civilians. It is just fact, it has always been true and no one should expect this to change.

 

Civilians are not required to snap to salute the anthem or the flag, nor do civilians salute military personnel whether EP or officer. Civilians in the general society do not post or retire the colors each day nor do civilians have a MOS. Indeed, when civilians hit the beaches they do it with beach blankets, a beach umbrella and a cooler.

 

The U.S. military does not have included in its mission militarizing or commanding the civilian society. Patriotism takes many forms to include joining the military to take the oath to support and defend the Constitution. The Constitution is supreme -- it is the law of the land which each member of the military is sworn to support and defend and which civilians live by each day. Irony occurs only when the militarily minded fail in this vital respect.

 

NFL is btw a bunch of civilians.

 

41 minutes ago, amvet said:

(C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

But it has no legal force since it has long since been judged unconstitutional. This is just more nonsense stemming from that ridiculous Americanism movement of the 1920s. The original statute was passed in 1931.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

Edited October 2, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[inThailand]

Fans and viewers should walk out after any player disrespects the anthem or flag. Once this affects the sponsors they will stop this.

[Credo]

The National Anthem should not be played at sporting events.   They have nothing to with nationalism or patriotism.   The teams are all from the same country.   

 

[amvet]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

Again, source please.

36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem

 

It's awful easy to google you know. Just saying.

[amvet]

1 hour ago, Credo said:

The National Anthem should not be played at sporting events.   They have nothing to with nationalism or patriotism.   The teams are all from the same country.  

How about hockey? It's a lot like the war of 1812 except the Canadians are now on both sides. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[amvet]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

But it has no legal force since it has long since been judged unconstitutional. This is just more nonsense stemming from that ridiculous Americanism movement of the 1920s. The original statute was passed in 1931.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/301

Who said anything about a crime?  Simple disrespect is not a crime in the USA.  Don Rickles made a good living doing it.

[wayned]

1 hour ago, inThailand said:

Fans and viewers should walk out after any player disrespects the anthem or flag. Once this affects the sponsors they will stop this.

Isn't that what this is all about, What is the definition of disrespect?  I'm sure that your definition is different than mine and different than many others. It seems that many think that you should stand with your right hand over your heart.  I've never seen a picture of Trump with his hand over is heart like others in the photos so his definition must be different.  If you were in a room with a bunch of other people and Trump entered the room and everyone stood, would you?  Why?

 

[Credo]

41 minutes ago, amvet said:

How about hockey? It's a lot like the war of 1812 except the Canadians are now on both sides. 

In an international sporting event, it is common to play the National Anthem from both countries.   This includes the playing of the Canadian National Anthem when the Toronto Blue Jays play in the US.   

[attrayant]

1 hour ago, inThailand said:

Fans and viewers should walk out after any player disrespects the anthem or flag. Once this affects the sponsors they will stop this.

 

But they don't seem to be doing that, and ratings are up.  Why do you suppose they're not doing what you want them to?  It's almost like they live in a free country or something.

[ilostmypassword]

56 minutes ago, amvet said:

Who said anything about a crime?  Simple disrespect is not a crime in the USA.  Don Rickles made a good living doing it.

Then why did you cite it? It's just a statute that has a sorry history and is best forgotten.

[amvet]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Then why did you cite it? It's just a statute that has a sorry history and is best forgotten.

It is a guideline on what to do during the playing of the National Anthem.  How would the footballers know how to disrespect it if there wasn't something to disrespect?

[amvet]

26 minutes ago, Credo said:

In an international sporting event, it is common to play the National Anthem from both countries.   This includes the playing of the Canadian National Anthem when the Toronto Blue Jays play in the US.   

So you have changed your mind and now it's OK to play National Anthems at some sporting events like hockey? You said before, "The National Anthem should not be played at sporting events.   They have nothing to with nationalism or patriotism."  Now it is OK at hockey games?

[Andaman Al]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

So you have changed your mind and now it's OK to play National Anthems at some sporting events like hockey? You said before, "The National Anthem should not be played at sporting events.   They have nothing to with nationalism or patriotism."  Now it is OK at hockey games?

 

How totally disingenuous can you get? What Credo actually said was:

 

2 hours ago, Credo said:

The National Anthem should not be played at sporting events.   They have nothing to with nationalism or patriotism.   The teams are all from the same country.

Note the bit you did not add at the end  when you quoted him:  The teams are all from the same country. ergo if it is an international event then play away to your hearts content.

 

Do you think it is ok to post with such a lack of integrity? It is trolling, it is disingenuous but why am I not surprised that you would think to behave like that is normal when you support the King of Trolls. You should be ASHAMED.

 

By the way did you miss the replies to your photo post? Do we need to bump them to the front for you?

[ilostmypassword]

16 minutes ago, amvet said:

It is a guideline on what to do during the playing of the National Anthem.  How would the footballers know how to disrespect it if there wasn't something to disrespect?

And something cobbled together by legislators for a bad reason is now authoritative? Why?

[amvet]

10 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

 

How totally disingenuous can you get? What Credo actually said was:

 

Note the bit you did not add at the end  when you quoted him:  The teams are all from the same country. ergo if it is an international event then play away to your hearts content.

 

Do you think it is ok to post with such a lack of integrity? It is trolling, it is disingenuous but why am I not surprised that you would think to behave like that is normal when you support the King of Trolls. You should be ASHAMED.

 

By the way did you miss the replies to your photo post? Do we need to bump them to the front for you?

Sport is sport.  Seems to me no more valid to play an Anthem at an international event or a national event.  Sportsmen are mercenaries and play for whatever country pays the most money I don't see it has anything to do with nationality.  PS I thought I responded to all posts directed at me that were on topic.  If not feel free to let me know. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[amvet]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And something cobbled together by legislators for a bad reason is now authoritative? Why?

For lack of anything else.  If you want to publish a guide to kneeling or standing during the playing of national anthems I'm sure everyone would consider it when evaluating whether to kneel or stand or sit or raise a fist.  

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, amvet said:

For lack of anything else.  If you want to publish a guide to kneeling or standing during the playing of national anthems I'm sure everyone would consider it when evaluating whether do kneel or stand or sit or raise a fist.  

And if I did publish such a guide, it would deserve no more or less respect than the one you cited. In other words, no respect at all.