New House - Strange Breaker Box Wiring

[MrDetUdom]

I just had a new house built and finished. The builders did a great job structurally, but the electricals are a mess. Anyway, I've been crawling around the ceiling space and checking out the wiring, and it seems there are a couple of big issues.

 

The first is that they have used 1.5mm2 wire for everything. That includes the 8kW water heater and the 4kW oven. (I posted about the water heater earlier.  I had thought it was 4mm2 wire, but turns out it is 1.5mm2).

 

Looking in the breaker box, things are even weirder, and also potentially dangerous. Firstly, the neutral line coming in from the street is connected directly to the neutral bus. It is not connected to the supply side of the main breaker. Second, the street side of the main breaker is connected to the earth bus. It was one of those things where you have to do a double take. Now, I don't really know much about if there are alternate ways to wire a breaker box, but this looks all wrong to me. The builders claim that they put an earth spike deep under the foundations, but there is no way for me to check that. However, there are a pair of fattish wires connected to the neutral bus that are not paired with the live bus, so I assume that this is the earth spike. To add to the fun, we had an air conditioner installed about a week after we moved in (but before I checked all of the wiring), and the air conditioner people reversed the live/neutral colors for the air conditioner. (The builder used blue for live, brown for neutral, but the air conditioner people used brown for live and blue for neutral. I'm not sure which is standard for Thailand.) And ever since they installed the air conditioner, the RCBO makes a buzzing sound and there is a slight tingling/electrical shock feeling in the water coming out of the hot water heater.

 

I've added some photos. I know the photos are heard to see, so I'll explain. The there are two big black wires which run in from the street. One is connected to the L on the main circuit breaker, the other one snakes all the way around the circuit board and connects to the neutral bus on the left side. The neutral bus also has a couple of thick blue wires connected to it which I'm pretty sure this is from the earth spike, but since it is underneath the house I cannot be totally sure. The other thick black wire (which is connected to the N on the main circuit breaker) is the MEN, and is connected directly to the earth bus.

 

So, to the questions. Am I correct in assuming that this is completely wrong? It seems to me that the MEN and the neutral from the street should be swapped, and that the earth spike connection should be moved to the earth bus. What about the wiring colors? Is the builder correct or is the air conditioner man correct? Is it possible that the air conditioner man has gone and connected the live/neutral around the wrong way which is causing the buzz on the RCBO? Also, should I go and rewire the the 1.5mm2 wiring with something larger? I could probably just do the kitchen, as that is the only place that uses remotely high powered devices. (And in case you were wondering, yes, the wires joints in the ceiling are all just twisted together and then wrapped in electrical tape. Not a wire nut or junction box in sight).

 

Any comments, hints, or suggestions welcome.

 

[hansnl]

Oh well......

Better find a real elecrical wizard to sort this mess out.

[Crossy]

It's nearly right, that incoming neutral should go to the ground bar, it's the Thai way of implementing MEN.

 

But all that undersize wiring needs to come out, now!

 

Does your RCBO stay engaged when "on" (or "off")?

 

Yes, you have a significant hazard.

 

[Bantex]

This is Thailand.

Did the electrician have any qualifications?

Get the wiring checked out properly & quick.

 

[KKr]

seems earthed back to neutral, so basically pointless. if the plug goes into the socket the wrong way your electrical appliances will "tingle".
A proper electrician can verify the existence of an earth "spike", and then the wires should be switched.
Do your sockets have three wires, or two and the Earth connected to Neutral? 

the black wire on the left that is connected to the Neutral rail comes from where ?

http://www. paigewire. com/pumpWireCalc.aspx. gives a handy calculation tool, did not check the calculations though.

Good luck, do not run heavy equipment until all sorted out..

Edited September 27, 2017 by KKr

[Foozool]

Not a professional job. Perhaps by an unlicensed.

Wires must not be on physical tension inside the box and have enough moving freedom without breaking or getting out of breakers. 

Sorry,

but it is real mess.  

[tutsiwarrior]

with the present 1.5mm wire sizes and breakers and the connected loads (water heater and oven) there is a danger of the circuits frying and the associated fire hazard...

 

the RCBO only protects against earth faults AFAIK...

 

 

[MrDetUdom]

1 hour ago, KKr said:

the black wire on the left that is connected to the Neutral rail comes from where ?

This is the neutral that comes from the street pole/PEA.

 

1 hour ago, KKr said:

Do your sockets have three wires, or two and the Earth connected to Neutral? 

Some have three, some have two. They all seem to be wired correctly. However, the guy wired his own power plugs for the stove and oven and plugged them into regular power sockets, so he may have gotten them wired wrong. The water heater also has a direct wire, and I haven't had a chance to open it up and see what is connected where.

 

2 hours ago, Bantex said:

Did the electrician have any qualifications?

Hahaha. I'm fairly deep countryside. I don't think they exist out here. I'm not an electrician, but I have a post-grad degree in experimental physics, so I figured I could do most of the work myself. I just don't know what the standards are.

 

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

It's nearly right, that incoming neutral should go to the ground bar, it's the Thai way of implementing MEN.

That's an easy enough fix. I'm still concerned that the neutral from the utility doesn't go directly through the breaker before the MEN, but if that's the Thai way then I can live with it. If I move the utility neutral to the earth rail, then I still have the earth spike connected to neutral.

 

Also, the conductor size of the earth spike seems too small. It looks like 2.5mm2 wiring, but just with two of them twisted together (effectively 5mm2). I can run my own earth spike, but should I have it connected in parallel with the existing one, or only use one at a time?

[Cricky]

I'm impressed with the quantity of these replies. 

I'm not impressed with the quality of the plumbers workmanship. LOL

 

Good luck getting this mess sorted.

[Satcommlee]

Interesting colours, reminds me of home :-) - I'd have almost approved if all the Browns were connected to live and all the blue's connected to Neutral.

 

But get that 1.5mm out of there or change all the breakers to 10 amp for safety... there's a 1.5mm connected to a 32 AMP breaker that is not good, especially if there is a shower at the other end!!!

 

You have a hazard my friend...

 

 

[MadMuhammad]

2 hours ago, MrDetUdom said:

This is the neutral that comes from the street pole/PEA.

 

Some have three, some have two. They all seem to be wired correctly. However, the guy wired his own power plugs for the stove and oven and plugged them into regular power sockets, so he may have gotten them wired wrong. The water heater also has a direct wire, and I haven't had a chance to open it up and see what is connected where.

 

Hahaha. I'm fairly deep countryside. I don't think they exist out here. I'm not an electrician, but I have a post-grad degree in experimental physics, so I figured I could do most of the work myself. I just don't know what the standards are.

 

That's an easy enough fix. I'm still concerned that the neutral from the utility doesn't go directly through the breaker before the MEN, but if that's the Thai way then I can live with it. If I move the utility neutral to the earth rail, then I still have the earth spike connected to neutral.

 

Also, the conductor size of the earth spike seems too small. It looks like 2.5mm2 wiring, but just with two of them twisted together (effectively 5mm2). I can run my own earth spike, but should I have it connected in parallel with the existing one, or only use one at a time?

Going with AS/NZS regs:

 

The incoming nuetral doesn’t require switching. Direct to nuetral bus bar is fine.

 

Only one earth spike should be used in a single installation.

If you want to check earthing yourself you need a trailing wire (length of cable) and another earth stake. Run trailing wire to your earth stake then back to your SB. 

You also require a meggar (measures resistance) to test earth continuity. 

Thailand’s dry soil may be an issue so be sure to drive your stake into solid earth. 

Earth staje should be directly connected to your earth bud bar then an MEN link between earth and nuetral bus.

Your earth wire to staje should be minimum 4mm2.

Parrarlel 2.5 wire for earth is acceptable (better than nothing) but not best practice or to oz regs. 

 

Obviously the stripped and twisted wiring needs connecters and j-boxes installed.

 

There’s plenty of diagrams you can look up to see best practice wiring of switchboards including RCBO’s. The buzzing is a concern and should be investigated. 

 

As for wiring colour inconsistentcies it would be best to de-energise the installation, inspect and correct this for future safety. 

Be sure to test everything before you touch any terminals or bare wiring!

 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by MadMuhammad

[Foozool]

Some neutrals are blue color and some are brown ?

[Foozool]

Correct colors:

Brown = load

Blue = Nutral 

Green = Ground

Perhaps AC guys connected the correct color, but wires are not connected to correct junctions (I see blue wires are connected to breakers). I see mixture of blue and brown at the Nutral bar too. 

You can test the wires by a "hot (load) wire tester" . It looks like a small screwdriver with a neon light inside. Only hot ( Load ) wire can light up the neon light (while you hold your finger at the end of the screwdriver). 

For checking the ground you need to have a voltmeter. The main ground wire should be individually tested by placing a voltmeter between Load wire and Ground wire ( ground wire must be separated from the junction). the voltage between Ground and Load must be very close to Voltage between Load and Nutral. 

 

I suggest you to hire a real electrician and change the box too since it is too tight ( if length of wires make it possible) and redo the job at the box and check all color codes at outlets, water heater and water pump. 

Ground is very important too (must not be connected to Nutral at all). 

Some of wires color codes are wrong and could put your life in danger. Especially about water heater. 

 

Ground is very important, 

dont forget not doing anything risky.

safty 1st.

 

good luck

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Foozool

[Bantex]

I wasn't trying to be funny when I asked about qualifications. I also live well into the countryside, close to the Burmese border and there are qualified electricians in most areas but the trick is in locating them. As most rural banks handle all types of insurance including building insurance, they also have a list of local qualified assessor's they use following claims. We simply asked the bank staff for the details of a qualified electrician which they happily supplied and when we later insured the new build through that bank we got a reduced premium rate as they knew we had used a qualified person. I even had UK electrical sockets fitted some of which have USB power outputs so I don't have to worry about inferior phone chargers causing problems.


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[maxpower]

2 hours ago, MadMuhammad said:

Going with AS/NZS regs:

 

The incoming nuetral doesn’t require switching. Direct to nuetral bus bar is fine.

Some of the later Thai regulation documents show no isolation on the neutral. Other documents show isolation. These are very confused times at the various PEA offices. As for the new colors, they remain purely decorative until everyone gets the basic idea.

 

MEN links and supply neutrals directly connected to the neutral bar are fine where everyone follows the regulations. Anything goes in Thailand and the PEA continue to dance and look away when a 500 Baht tip appears. Metered supplies can run into endless sub supplies that have even been known to join up with other supplies.

 

So much fun when this mess of a power network drops a neutral halfway down the soi and leaves you to handle return paths. 

Personally, when in Thailand I prefer to have all poles of the supply isolated.

 

The OP's first photo is pure class A.

Edited September 27, 2017 by maxpower

[Crossy]

OK to clarify for our OP :-

 

A. Move that incoming neutral from the neutral bar to the ground bar. Leave the link from the ground bar to the main switch. This is the Thai implementation of MEN, you will need to do it like this to get past the MEA/PEA inspection. The ground rod must go to the ground bar.

 

Like this :-

 

 

Diagram is from this PEA document Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf

 

B. Disable any loads over about 3,500W (16A) assuming those are indeed 1.5mm² cables. If you have a water heater, run it at 3.5kW or less.

 

C. Replace the 1.5mm² wiring with the correct size, or change the breakers to 15A.

 

D. Take out a Contract (Hit) on your electrician.

 

 

[RichCor]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

D. Take out a Contract (Hit) on your electrician.

Tit for Tat, as is surely seems the electrician has already accepted the contract to set an electrical fire or electrocute the OP. 

 

@Crossy, surprised you didn't ask the OP to verify incomer L/N polarity, issues with a 'dry' ground rod, or address the shower tingle.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, RichCor said:

@Crossy, surprised you didn't ask the OP to verify incomer L/N polarity, issues with a 'dry' ground rod, or address the shower tingle.

Indeed, a very wise suggestion to verify incoming polarity. My bad.

 

The rod being a bit dry shouldn't have a significant effect in a MEN system, but watering it can't hurt (if he can find it).

 

I missed the shower tingle in the OP, most definitely needs investigating.

 

[MrDetUdom]

7 hours ago, maxpower said:

So much fun when this mess of a power network drops a neutral halfway down the soi and leaves you to handle return paths. 

This is exactly the kind of thing that I would expect to happen here. (Although out where we are, it's more likely to be a drunken farmer driving their tractor into a power pole)

 

8 hours ago, Bantex said:

I also live well into the countryside, close to the Burmese border and there are qualified electricians in most areas but the trick is in locating them.

Thanks Bantext. This sounds like good advice. I'm still not convinced that I could find someone to do it properly. I'm out in Isaan, and the local attitude seems to be total disdain to doing anything correctly. The shittier people do something, the more proud they are. It wouldn't surprise me if the banks/hospital/etc. drive their electricians in from somewhere else. I already checked out the big hardware stores out to the big town which is 1.5 hr drive away, and they don't stock anything larger than 6mm2 wire. On top of that, this is a new house, which means they wired up the house internally first, and then the PEA came to "inspect" and connect us to the grid. The PEA were probably just happy there were no chickens nesting in the CU.

 

The only issue is that my experience in Thailand has been that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Even "professionals" seem happy as long as things work on the surface, even if behind the scenes is a complete mess. Maybe I could do all the wiring and then try and find someone to come in and check it all. At least that way, I'd know for certain that the correct wire gauges were used and all of the ground wires are correct. Plus, I'd like to find actual junction boxes if possible (I've read on this forum that they're hard to get in Thailand, but I could get friend/relatives to ship some over from Australia)

 

15 hours ago, Crossy said:

Does your RCBO stay engaged when "on" (or "off")?

I haven't had a good opportunity to test this yet. I'm not sure exactly what the push-button switch on the RCBO is supposed to do. Can you give me a heads-up of what should happen before I go and test it? It's clearly not the test button, since that is separate.

 

9 hours ago, Foozool said:

redo the job at the box and check all color codes at outlets, water heater and water pump. 

Thanks Foozool. I'm simply going to have to rewire everything anyway, so the color codes at the outlets will all get redone then. I was considering keeping the 1.5mm2 for the the lighting, but when I mapped out the breaker circuits to the physical house, it turns out that the "lighting" circuit (the circuit the builder told us was all of the lighting) only has one of the lights on it. The rest of the lights are spread out across 4 different circuits. I figure I'll keep the wiring that runs from the light switches to the lights, and replace everything else and also remap the circuits.

 

For the new circuit arrangement, I figure:

1. All lighting (10A)

2. Water heater (32A)

3. Oven/stove (32A)

4. Other kitchen sockets (20A)

5. Back room sockets (washing machine + water pump) (16A)

6. Outdoor (front/back porch lighting + front porch outlet) (10A)

7. All other sockets (basically lounge + 2 bedrooms) (16A)

[MrDetUdom]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

Diagram is from this PEA document Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf

Thanks Crossy. So basically it looks like they wired the incoming neutral and earth spike to the neutral bar instead of the ground bar. That's an easy fix. I wasn't here when the PEA came and connected up the utility wires, but from what I understand, they didn't actually come in and look at the CU before they connected it. They just attached the wires. As for the hit on the electrician, I'd love to.

 

For the tingle in the water, I might have to investigate further, but it may be a faulty unit. The other thing that I forgot to mention is that I also changed the water heater to the lowest setting at around the time the air con was installed (because it was the dodgy bathroom wiring that led me to inspect everything else). It may be that the tingle is somehow related to running on the lowest setting. I'm going out looking for a multimeter later today (I'll get one with the ability to test for earth spike), so I'll test using that instead of putting my hand in the water...

[Foozool]

1 hour ago, MrDetUdom said:

This is exactly the kind of thing that I would expect to happen here. (Although out where we are, it's more likely to be a drunken farmer driving their tractor into a power pole)

 

Thanks Bantext. This sounds like good advice. I'm still not convinced that I could find someone to do it properly. I'm out in Isaan, and the local attitude seems to be total disdain to doing anything correctly. The shittier people do something, the more proud they are. It wouldn't surprise me if the banks/hospital/etc. drive their electricians in from somewhere else. I already checked out the big hardware stores out to the big town which is 1.5 hr drive away, and they don't stock anything larger than 6mm2 wire. On top of that, this is a new house, which means they wired up the house internally first, and then the PEA came to "inspect" and connect us to the grid. The PEA were probably just happy there were no chickens nesting in the CU.

 

The only issue is that my experience in Thailand has been that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. Even "professionals" seem happy as long as things work on the surface, even if behind the scenes is a complete mess. Maybe I could do all the wiring and then try and find someone to come in and check it all. At least that way, I'd know for certain that the correct wire gauges were used and all of the ground wires are correct. Plus, I'd like to find actual junction boxes if possible (I've read on this forum that they're hard to get in Thailand, but I could get friend/relatives to ship some over from Australia)

 

I haven't had a good opportunity to test this yet. I'm not sure exactly what the push-button switch on the RCBO is supposed to do. Can you give me a heads-up of what should happen before I go and test it? It's clearly not the test button, since that is separate.

 

Thanks Foozool. I'm simply going to have to rewire everything anyway, so the color codes at the outlets will all get redone then. I was considering keeping the 1.5mm2 for the the lighting, but when I mapped out the breaker circuits to the physical house, it turns out that the "lighting" circuit (the circuit the builder told us was all of the lighting) only has one of the lights on it. The rest of the lights are spread out across 4 different circuits. I figure I'll keep the wiring that runs from the light switches to the lights, and replace everything else and also remap the circuits.

 

For the new circuit arrangement, I figure:

1. All lighting (10A)

2. Water heater (32A)

3. Oven/stove (32A)

4. Other kitchen sockets (20A)

5. Back room sockets (washing machine + water pump) (16A)

6. Outdoor (front/back porch lighting + front porch outlet) (10A)

7. All other sockets (basically lounge + 2 bedrooms) (16A)

 It would be better if you go with higher rate for #5  

Perhaps  20A  and  2.5 mm 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Foozool

[Antioc]

This is the diagram you should find in RCBOs now being sold.  You will notice that the Neutral comes in and is fastened to the Earth Bar, which should be correctly Earthed as mentioned above.  A wire then goes from the Earth Bar to the "Master Circuit Breaker".  The Load, as you can see, is a direct connection.  This diagram shows an "Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker" to the right of the MCB, some  boxes have a meter which makes it easier to read the amount of leakage.  Some new RCBOs also have cartridge Surge Protectors, which are yellow on the "CKY ROCBOs".  Good advice has already been posted on the size of wires etc, and yes, a single Earth Stake is recommended.

[Antioc]

Try HomeHub for Junction Boxes and wire, they have a full range, including channels.  They also have CXY RCBOs.   The biggest problem with safety here is the poor connectors, joined wires everywhere (twisted, bent over, then taped).  There is an Electrician in Udon Thani who does know how to correctly wire everything up (Chainat Pakul, 0882651125 or 0874915610).  You need to have the hardware on site for him and let him know that you will have his work checked - don't pay everything up front.  Tell him clearly what you want done and be sure he understands - draw diagrams if necessary, that you would rather run an extra wire than have him put junction boxes everywhere.  As with most Thai jobs, even by the best, you may end up 98% happy with the work.  Hope this helps someone.

[RichCor]

15 minutes ago, Antioc said:

 

Also note that the L/N Main Breaker terminals are reversed in the diagram, to what's actually indicated for the OPs CU (showing N/L).

 

[Antioc]

Also note that the L/N Main Breaker terminals are reversed in the diagram, to what's actually indicated for the OPs CU (showing N/L).

 

Yes, it's confusing but correct.  You will find this on all the "Master Circuit Breakers" even the Ceramic ones.  However, this changes when you take the wires off the RCBO Minnie Circuit Breakers.  When wiring your Power Points, Lights, etc, make sure that you are correct.  The Power Points are marked L, N and E in the moulding.

[Antioc]

The Diagram I posted is correct.

[Crossy]

31 minutes ago, Antioc said:

The Diagram I posted is correct.

Agree, what is important is that they are diagrams, not pictures, different manufacturers have the terminals in different locations. RTFM - read the fxxxing manual.

 

Here is the PEA diagram with translations for those who are scared of a Thai diagram

 

[Antioc]

Yes Crossy, it's important that people check with the requirements of their RCBOs.  There is so much in this country that conflicts with the standards that it really is difficult to give definitive advice/suggestions.  I found cheap plugs from China have the L and N terminals reversed which is something to look out for.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Antioc

[Antioc]

You will find on the "Master Circuit Breakers" the terminals are marked which is arse before face on the Thai diagram.  Again, I advise people to check the requirements on the specific RCBOs before wiring them up.  The diagram I posted above requires the Nuetral to be on the right as you face the MCB.  Note that a Neutral goes from the Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker to the Neutral Bar.  If the wiring is incorrect then stand back a bit.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Antioc

[Antioc]

The CXY RCBOs come completely wired and conform to Thai standards, they only require the Mains L and N to be connected.  You then plan your circuits and connect accordingly.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Antioc
correction